Israel - Palestine Conflict. Mod note in OP - updated 1st August

WakeUp · 08-08-2014 01:10PM

Grayson wrote: »

I went to the haaretz article. It appears to be in the comment section (if google translate is accurate) so i don't know how accurate that story is.

It is worth looking at the comments there. there's lots of calls to wipe out the Palestinians.

the Bibi weasel seems awfully concerned about ending up in the dock of the ICC. I wonder why. Israels "war" must be pulled apart and examined this time around , no rubble left unturned, and if they are guilty of war crimes the perpetrators brought to justice and punished. anything less is just unacceptable. they must be held to account this time if they have a case to answer.

hju6 · 08-08-2014 01:26PM

jank wrote: »

Whatever about legitimate criticism of Israel's response to Hamas this post is a disgraceful effort trying to use anything however minor or trivial as a way to tarnish Israel. Well-done.

If you had bothered to read the posts in this thread and digest them, even a six year child would see the context in which the post was posted.

Israel needs no tarnish, it is self sufficient in that area

JamboMac · 08-08-2014 01:32PM

Love that Obama will attack Iraq and drop food but the Palestinians can go f:&; themselves.

Dan_Solo · 08-08-2014 01:41PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I can guarantee you oxygen isn't an explosive.

I can also guarantee you that pressurized oxygen cylinders can explode.
What is the relevance of whether oxygen itself is an explosive or not? It's not stored in hospitals in balloons, is it?

JC01 · 08-08-2014 01:51PM

HazDanz wrote: »

America give 3.3 billion a year to Israel. Just give some of that money to Gaza to rebuild.

The problem is the money wouldn't be used for rebuilding though. It'd enter Gaza and immediately be seized by Hamas to add to there war chest.

Take the building materials there always shouting about for example. Very very limited materials have been allowed into Gaza for years yet those that are generally end up in tunnels and Hamas compounds rather than I'm homes and schools for the general population. The tunnel network built up under Gaza was extremely impressive and I remember reading a piece on them over a year ago and wondering how come the Isrealis hadn't done something about them yet. The Gazans wer being very blatant about the whole set-up to a Western reporter.

wes · 08-08-2014 01:55PM

JC01 wrote: »

The problem is the money wouldn't be used for rebuilding though. It'd enter Gaza and immediately be seized by Hamas to add to there war chest.

Take the building materials there always shouting about for example. Very very limited materials have been allowed into Gaza for years yet those that are generally end up in tunnels and Hamas compounds rather than I'm homes and schools for the general population. The tunnel network built up under Gaza was extremely impressive and I remember reading a piece on them over a year ago and wondering how come the Isrealis hadn't done something about them yet. The Gazans wer being very blatant about the whole set-up to a Western reporter.

Care to explain how the various schools buildings etc were rebuilt last time they were leveled, if Hamas took all the concrete?

Any evidence that Hamas are seizing aid on a mass scale?

HazDanz · 08-08-2014 01:57PM

JC01 wrote: »

The problem is the money wouldn't be used for rebuilding though. It'd enter Gaza and immediately be seized by Hamas to add to there war chest.

Take the building materials there always shouting about for example. Very very limited materials have been allowed into Gaza for years yet those that are generally end up in tunnels and Hamas compounds rather than I'm homes and schools for the general population. The tunnel network built up under Gaza was extremely impressive and I remember reading a piece on them over a year ago and wondering how come the Isrealis hadn't done something about them yet. The Gazans wer being very blatant about the whole set-up to a Western reporter.

Tunnels built to Egypt were regarded as the main economy flow that Gaza had due to border restrictions. It's understandable I think that this is where you put money into in order to be someway more self reliant.

bumper234 · 08-08-2014 02:04PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

I can also guarantee you that pressurized oxygen cylinders can explode.
What is the relevance of whether oxygen itself is an explosive or not? It's not stored in hospitals in balloons, is it?

But but but

Oxygen cylinders don't explode

http://m.krdo.com/news/safety-tips-for-handling-oxygen-cylinders/21805386

"People need to be very careful when they're handling cylinders," said Ed Woloszyn, branch manager at Airgas. "They're very dangerous. They are a bomb."

Woloszyn calls Wednesday's explosion a freak accident. His company, Airgas, didn't supply the cylinders that blew up, but he assisted the fire department the day of the explosion.

"The gas tank, I assume, caught fire, which then, the fire consumed the cylinders, which exploded," Woloszyn said.

Fuhrer · 08-08-2014 02:08PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I can guarantee you oxygen isn't an explosive.

Yeah,

Unless its been compressed with some other chemical, the oxygen itself isnt flammable.

Arthur Beesley · 08-08-2014 02:10PM

JamboMac wrote: »

Love that Obama will attack Iraq and drop food but the Palestinians can go f:&; themselves.

He probably isn't a fan if Hamas.

JC01 · 08-08-2014 02:13PM

HazDanz wrote: »

Tunnels built to Egypt were regarded as the main economy flow that Gaza had due to border restrictions. It's understandable I think that this is where you put money into in order to be someway more self reliant.

Ye I agree it's totally understandable and exactly what Id do if I was in charge but that doesn't change the fact Hamas hold total control over Gaza and anything that enters it, be it materials, money or weapons. Considering the fanatacism and hatred they hold towards Isreal I don't think it's beyond the realms of possibility to think they might seize US-aid money to help there own war effort. Then you have a Taliban situation all over again and once again America is the bad guy for arming terrorists.

bumper234 · 08-08-2014 02:15PM

JC01 wrote: »

Ye I agree it's totally understandable and exactly what Id do if I was in charge but that doesn't change the fact Hamas hold total control over Gaza and anything that enters it, be it materials, money or weapons. Considering the fanatacism and hatred they hold towards Isreal I don't think it's beyond the realms of possibility to think they might seize US-aid money to help there own war effort. Then you have a Taliban situation all over again and once again America is the bad guy for arming terrorists.

I think you will find that Israel does this through their illegal blockades.

JC01 · 08-08-2014 02:20PM

bumper234 wrote: »

I think you will find that Israel does this through their illegal blockades.

Oh for the love of Jesus...

Fine Isreal=evil, Palestinians=Good

Now that's out of the way could we have a grown-up conversation or...

HazDanz · 08-08-2014 02:20PM

JC01 wrote: »

Ye I agree it's totally understandable and exactly what Id do if I was in charge but that doesn't change the fact Hamas hold total control over Gaza and anything that enters it, be it materials, money or weapons. Considering the fanatacism and hatred they hold towards Isreal I don't think it's beyond the realms of possibility to think they might seize US-aid money to help there own war effort. Then you have a Taliban situation all over again and once again America is the bad guy for arming terrorists.

Israel hold control over the "military zone" in Gaza which is holding control over everything within it's boundaries.

Gaza is being held by a strangle hold by Israel.

Warper · 08-08-2014 02:22PM

JamboMac wrote: »

Love that Obama will attack Iraq and drop food but the Palestinians can go f:&; themselves.

America will not be silent in the face of genocide. What heroes, they really have helped Iraq the past 20 years or so

JC01 · 08-08-2014 02:26PM

HazDanz wrote: »

Israel hold control over the "military zone" in Gaza which is holding control over everything within it's boundaries.

Gaza is being held by a strangle hold by Israel.

This is like smacking my head off a wall.

Yes I'm aware of the blockade and all that it entails I wasn't talking about the pros or cons of it I was talking about who controls things INSIDE Gaza. I.e who controls normal Gazans lives ona day to day basis during "peacetime".

I'm fully aware of the control Isreal has over the area but then again so are you, we will never agree on much in that whole debate so instead I'd like to hear your opinions on the governmental set up inside Gaza. So back to the point I was making; do you beleive that if the US was forced to pay for the rebuilding of Gaza that it could be garenteed that none of the money would end up going towards Hamas own war effort?

R P McMurphy · 08-08-2014 02:30PM

JC01 wrote: »

The problem is the money wouldn't be used for rebuilding though. It'd enter Gaza and immediately be seized by Hamas to add to there war chest.

Take the building materials there always shouting about for example. Very very limited materials have been allowed into Gaza for years yet those that are generally end up in tunnels and Hamas compounds rather than I'm homes and schools for the general population. The tunnel network built up under Gaza was extremely impressive and I remember reading a piece on them over a year ago and wondering how come the Isrealis hadn't done something about them yet. The Gazans wer being very blatant about the whole set-up to a Western reporter.

'Gernerally end up'? operation cast lead was only five years ago. Gaza was destroyed during it. The level of rebuilding with limited supplies was pretty impressive.

Warper · 08-08-2014 02:30PM

JC01 wrote: »

This is like smacking my head off a wall.

Yes I'm aware of the blockade and all that it entails I wasn't talking about the pros or cons of it I was talking about who controls things INSIDE Gaza. I.e who controls normal Gazans lives ona day to day basis during "peacetime".

I'm fully aware of the control Isreal has over the area but then again so are you, we will never agree on much in that whole debate so instead I'd like to hear your opinions on the governmental set up inside Gaza. So back to the point I was making; do you beleive that if the US was forced to pay for the rebuilding of Gaza that it could be garenteed that none of the money would end up going towards Hamas own war effort?

You are right about one thing it is like smacking your head off a wall. Israel controls everything about Gaza.

Warper · 08-08-2014 02:32PM

Guess what? If Israel lifted the siege and left Gaza in peace there would be no Hamas. That is too hard for the war-crazed Israelis to understand.

HazDanz · 08-08-2014 02:34PM

JC01 wrote: »

This is like smacking my head off a wall.

Yes I'm aware of the blockade and all that it entails I wasn't talking about the pros or cons of it I was talking about who controls things INSIDE Gaza. I.e who controls normal Gazans lives ona day to day basis during "peacetime".

I'm fully aware of the control Isreal has over the area but then again so are you, we will never agree on much in that whole debate so instead I'd like to hear your opinions on the governmental set up inside Gaza. So back to the point I was making; do you beleive that if the US was forced to pay for the rebuilding of Gaza that it could be garenteed that none of the money would end up going towards Hamas own war effort?

You cannot separate the blockade and the governing of Gaza as both are intrinsically linked.

A fair analysis of how Gaza operates to an open flow of funds is not possible as it has never happened.

Borders open and Gaza being allowed to operate as it wants and then we can comment on it. At the moment you are second guessing what could happen rather what would happen.

Also as Israel has laboured the right to defend itself, i'd imagine Palestine would like the same support from the US as the US has afforded Israel itself on this matter.

JC01 · 08-08-2014 02:35PM

Warper wrote: »

You are right about one thing it is like smacking your head off a wall. Israel controls everything about Gaza.

Of course it does, that's why Hamas were elected. Because Israel actually secretly wants them there so they can keep the Genocide-machine rolling.

ChicagoJoe · 08-08-2014 02:35PM

Warper wrote: »

America will not be silent in the face of genocide. What heroes, they really have helped Iraq the past 20 years or so

Obama and by extension the US Dept of State wants a good news story after it's support of Israeli genocide against Gaza for the last few weeks. It's political expediency, nothing else.

JC01 · 08-08-2014 02:39PM

HazDanz wrote: »

You cannot separate the blockade and the governing of Gaza as both are intrinsically linked.

A fair analysis of how Gaza operates to an open flow of funds is not possible as it has never happened.

Borders open and Gaza being allowed to operate as it wants and then we can comment on it. At the moment you are second guessing what could happen rather what would happen.

Also as Israel has laboured the right to defend itself, i'd imagine Palestine would like the same support from the US as the US has afforded Israel itself on this matter.

Very true and Id agree that the presence of the blockade does serve to further isolate Gaza and it's internal goings-on from much meaningful oversight.

As a realist though I don't see the blockade ending anytime soon and under the current conditions I can't see it being a safe investment to pump millions into Gaza for rebuilding when Hamas are in charge, as was suggested

ChicagoJoe · 08-08-2014 02:43PM

JC01 wrote: »

Of course it does, that's why Hamas were elected. Because Israel actually secretly wants them there so they can keep the Genocide-machine rolling.

The carpet bombing of civilians in Gaza by Israel were intended to split the Palestinian Authority ( Fatah, Hamas and PLO). Instead it has backfired on them thanks to social media etc with most of the world horrified by what the Israeli's have done and are now been seen for what they have doing for decades. The ironic outcome is that the Palestinian Authority will come out of this internationally stronger than ever.

JC01 · 08-08-2014 02:44PM

Warper wrote: »

Guess what? If Israel lifted the siege and left Gaza in peace there would be no Hamas. That is too hard for the war-crazed Israelis to understand.

Yes because fanatical jihadis have never sprung up or thrived in places that wernt under Israeli occupation. And of course Hamas will decommission and disband the day the blockade is lifted.

bumper234 · 08-08-2014 02:46PM

JC01 wrote: »

Oh for the love of Jesus...

Fine Isreal=evil, Palestinians=Good

Now that's out of the way could we have a grown-up conversation or...

I never said either are good or bad. Fwiw i despise Hamas and i hope the Palestinian people overthrow them. I also despise the Israeli military machine and hope everyone of them.responsible for war crimes is charged and found guilty.

You cannot just ignore the fact that Israel oversees a total blockade of Gaza and nothing gets in there unless the Israelis say so. The need for tunnels into Egypt is so the people can smuggle goods in to cloth and feed themselves, or do you think the 2000 calories per person a day that That Israel allows through the blockade is sufficient?

HazDanz · 08-08-2014 02:47PM

JC01 wrote: »

Very true and Id agree that the presence of the blockade does serve to further isolate Gaza and it's internal goings-on from much meaningful oversight.

As a realist though I don't see the blockade ending anytime soon and under the current conditions I can't see it being a safe investment to pump millions into Gaza for rebuilding when Hamas are in charge, as was suggested

The problem at the moment is both sides are governed by right winged extremist. Both thrive off of this war going on - it benifits them.

Benjamin Netanyahu approval rating is 85% at the moment in Israel. That's astonishing.

Israel as the clear dominant party here should be more diplomatic and resilient to Hamas rockets it must be said. They have a very effective defensive system in place, they do not need to use force as they have been.

TommyKnocker · 08-08-2014 02:49PM

JC01 wrote: »

Yes because fanatical jihadis have never sprung up or thrived in places that wernt under Israeli occupation. And of course Hamas will decommission and disband the day the blockade is lifted.

Why da fuc would Hamas decommission? They make up the Palestine resistance and an occupied country has a right to resist the occupying force.

Warper · 08-08-2014 02:51PM

JC01 wrote: »

Yes because fanatical jihadis have never sprung up or thrived in places that wernt under Israeli occupation. And of course Hamas will decommission and disband the day the blockade is lifted.

Fanatical jihadis?? What are you talking about? They were elected to Govt because of the Israeli oppression.

Nodin · 08-08-2014 02:52PM

bumper234 wrote: »

But but but

Oxygen cylinders don't explode

I used do a bit of gas welding when younger. Going on memory, the acytelene was 400psi and the pressure of the oxygen 2000 psi. They can take off like a torpedo if they fall and the valve snaps. I'd imagine things would go "boom" if they were tossed on a fire.

Israel - Palestine Conflict. **Mod note in OP - updated 1st August**

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Israel - Palestine Conflict. Mod note in OP - updated 1st August