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Israel - Palestine Conflict. **Mod note in OP - updated 1st August**

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,671 ✭✭✭dav3


    jank wrote: »
    So again, lets say Hamas breaks its ceasefire and fires a number of rockets... Israel as just to stand idly by. Is that you would expect them to do today?

    I would expect them to defend themselves. I would not expect them to deliberately target innocent civilians or children playing on a beach.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Has anyone besides IDF mirror sites reported who broke the ceasefire today?
    NB: ceasefire ≠ truce


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    Tragic that Hamas decided to begin shelling again this morning. And that Israel didn't have the restraint to hold fire.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,173 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    jank wrote: »
    And I have yet to see the same level of condemnation leveled at Hamas from the same people that climb their anti-Israeli hobby horse with glee time and again.
    Hamas are terrorists, Israel are a sovereign state, as they so often like to remind us. Therefore they are automatically held to higher standards and will be condemned more strongly for criminal acts.
    So again, lets say Hamas breaks its ceasefire and fires a number of rockets... Israel as just to stand idly by. Is that you would expect them to do today?
    You present it as if it's a binary choice; do nothing or bomb the **** out of Gaza.

    If Israel actually wanted to stop the rocket attacks, it wouldn't respond with shells, as each shell just breeds more extremists and more rockets. You cannot defeat terrorism by fighting fire with fire. We've known this for a long time but nobody seems to have learned. Afghanistan and Iraq are recent proofs of this.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,414 ✭✭✭Awkward Badger


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Has anyone besides IDF mirror sites reported who broke the ceasefire today?
    NB: ceasefire ≠ truce

    Wasn't broke as such from what I see. It ended at 8am and that's then the Israeli army report rockets were fired and which they responded to. And now the whole sticking mess continues.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,278 ✭✭✭jackofalltrades


    jank wrote: »
    See Israel from a PR point of view cannot win...
    Call a permanent halt to settlement expansions, and remove the illegal ones in the West Bank.
    Start treating the Palestinian people as equals.
    Stop using people as human shields.

    Any of the above would be a PR win for Israel.
    ....but the thing most people cant understand is that they don't give two ****s about opinion in Dublin or other European capitals.
    By the simple fact that they are constantly trying to defend their actions shows that they do care about our opinions.
    It is funny that people don't even hide the fact anymore that they put Israel on a higher pedestal than the Palestinians or Muslims groups including extremists, which of course is in of itself racist ironically.
    Since Israel identifies as a modern, western democracy, i'm going to hold it to those standards.
    Anyway, for the very fact that there is some due process in Israel where none exists in Gaza makes light of the fact that indeed there is a difference between the two.
    Due process is the absolute minimum I expect from a country calling itself a democracy.
    And I wouldn't consider a military court system to even come close to that.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,216 ✭✭✭Danger_dave1


    Palestinian militant group Hamas, which controls Gaza, earlier rejected any extension of the truce, saying Israel had failed to meet its demands.

    From Bbc.co.uk

    Terrible times for the people of Gaza and Isarel.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 9,846 ✭✭✭blackwhite


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    So, care to comment on Israel's racist citizenship criteria and bomb shelter policy or is it only one specific website repeating facts verifiable from multiple other sources that gets your anti-racism blood boiling?
    It's all about the one source, not the facts themselves available from hundreds of other sites I suppose?

    Strangely enough, I'm not here to post specifically on whatever you decide to dictate. All you seem capable of doing is attacking people who you think don't agree with you, instead of debating the issues. Have you managed a post anywhere on this thread that doesn't include some swipe or jibe at another poster?
    Has it ever occurred to you that it's aggressive, scatter-gun posts like the last couple of yours that make it so much easier for Israel-apologists to just stick their fingers in their ears, and ignore everything because "they all hate us regardless."

    You seem to continually think I'm trying to support Israel in this - I'm not.
    The lack of logic or reason behind much of what the pro-IDF supporters post is blatantly obvious, and is quickly called out by many on the thread. When someone who is opposed to Israel's actions posts links to a clearly racist website, is it not better that we call it out and say it isn't acceptable? I find it makes it a lot harder for IDF-supports to scream anti-semitism


    With regard to Israel, the facts speak for themselves and are abhorrent. There's no denying that in many cases Israel actively target civilians to "show them who's boss," and even in cases where they are actually targeting militants, they don't particularly care if civilians get hurt or not. (that's not to say that Hamas are a whole lot different - but the IDF like to try and claim that they hold some sort of moral superiority).

    Is it really so hard for you to understand that not wanting "my side" of the argument being tarnished by links to anti-semetic websites does not equate to being pro-Israel.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,414 ✭✭✭Awkward Badger


    The only side in this worth being on is the side of the innocent people who shouldn't be having their lives, homes and communities destroyed.

    As from Un High Commissioner Pilloy
    International law requires application of the principles of distinction between civilians and combatants, and between civilian objects and military objectives; proportionality; and precautions in attack. Any attacks in violation of these principles, on civilians, homes, schools and hospitals, must be condemned, and may amount to war crimes.

    Israel make no distinction in this regard. They bomb and shell indiscriminately. This is why I and I'd image most others have an issue. Their treatment of the people of Gaza and their willingness to kill civilians and destroy homes, schools, hospitals while ignoring UN resolutions, avoiding being held to account and refusing to adhere to international law is why people see them like they do.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Tragic that Hamas decided to begin shelling again this morning. And that Israel didn't have the restraint to hold fire.
    Said the IDF.
    Still awaiting confirmation from a non-genocidal source.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,944 ✭✭✭fedor.2.


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Said the IDF.
    Still awaiting confirmation from a non-genocidal source.

    :rolleyes:


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,290 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    bumper234 wrote: »
    So the Israelis can see what firearm a hamas operative is carrying via drone camera but they can't spot massive excavations to bury several thousand tonnes of bagged cement?

    Escape tunnels were commonly made in WWII Stalags, despite routine inspections by the Luftwaffe of the entire facility.
    A Hamas spokesman warned his organisation was ready for "a long war". (from BBC)

    The organization is. Are the Palestinians?
    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Why wouldn't you expect secondary explosions in a hospital? Unless the IDF know their blockade has stopped vital medical oxygen supplies reaching patients?

    I'm not convinced oxygen will explode in such a manner. (After all, oxygen is not an explosive, it's an aid to fire which is under pressure). See for example this truck of oxygen cylinders going up. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFj28hoioAc


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    blackwhite wrote: »
    Strangely enough, I'm not here to post specifically on whatever you decide to dictate.
    And yet you whine about me only posting in support of certain posts here. Mr Pot allow me to introduce Mr Kettle...
    blackwhite wrote: »
    All you seem capable of doing is attacking people who you think don't agree with you, instead of debating the issues. Have you managed a post anywhere on this thread that doesn't include some swipe or jibe at another poster?
    And yet I have received a sum total of zero infractions or moderation warnings about being abusive. Hmmm, almost like you're just making stuff up now.
    blackwhite wrote: »
    Is it really so hard for you to understand that not wanting "my side" of the argument being tarnished by links to anti-semetic websites does not equate to being pro-Israel.
    No need to get your knickers in a twist. The real point is that focusing on one website which does indeed appear to be run by a nutjob is an irrelevance compared to the substance presented which had been verified at length from multiple other sources.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Tragic that Hamas decided to begin shelling again this morning. And that Israel didn't have the restraint to hold fire.
    Tragic that Zionists refuse to lift the siege of Gaza requiring Hamas to defend the population there.
    We know Israel loves murdering UN soldiers (including Irish ones), but why are they so opposed to UN peacekeeping forces this time?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Interesting article I stumbled upon:

    South Africa Shouldn't be Singled Out

    Its amazing that a lot of the exact same arguments to defend Israel were used back in the day to defend the Apartheid regime of South Africa......

    While some things may change, I guess defending colonialism doesn't change a whole lot.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,823 ✭✭✭WakeUp


    The IDF’s ‘Hannibal Protocol’ and Two Criminally Insane Governments:

    "The sickness of present-day Israel, on display over the past horrible month of the one-sided slaughter of nearly 2000 Palestinians (including over 400 children) in the fenced-in ghetto of Gaza, has finally reached its nadir with the ugly case of the deliberate Israeli Defense Force murder of captured IDF 2nd Lt. Hadar Goldin.

    According to an article in the Israeli newspaper Haaretz, once it was determined that Goldin had been captured by Hamas fighters in the Gaza town of Rafah, the IDF initiated what it calls the “Hannibal Protocol” — the deliberate liquidation of the captive — to prevent his being used as a hostage to win concessions from Israel in future truce negotiations with the Palestinians. One reason for the almost instantaneous and ruthless Israeli decision to kill Goldin rather than attempt to rescue him, is that this captured soldier had the misfortune of being related to Israel’s defense minister, Moshe Yaalon, making him a valuable prize indeed for Hamas.

    And so began a massive bombardment of the entire residential area where Goldin was captured.

    As Haaretz reports in an editorial [1] about this case of deliberate sacrifice of an IDF officer, headlined “What Happened in Rafah?”, the ensuing high-explosive blitz on the area didn’t just kill Goldin, but also indiscriminately killed over 150 Palestinians, most of them civilians, including many women and children. Indeed, the paper states that the IDF “…shelled and bombed houses and their inhabitants indiscriminately, and as they tried to flee homes, hit them with shells and bombs in the streets.” The fatal bombing of a targeted UN-operated school in Rafah, which was condemned by the US government and by UN General Secretary Ban Ki-Moon, who called it a “criminal act and a moral outrage,” was part of that Hannibal Protocol action."
    http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/08/08/the-idfs-hannibal-protocol-and-two-criminally-insane-governments/


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    I'm not convinced oxygen will explode in such a manner. (After all, oxygen is not an explosive, it's an aid to fire which is under pressure). See for example this truck of oxygen cylinders going up. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFj28hoioAc
    Pressurized oxygen cylinders most certainly ARE an explosive hazard. It is disingenuous to say oxygen itself is not an explosive.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,823 ✭✭✭WakeUp


    Continued from the counter punch article...

    "Certainly the Hannibal Protocol is in itself “barbaric” in its cool calculus of denying the enemy a bargaining chip. But that term hardly seems to capture the horror of what was done by the IDF in this case. Clearly implementing the Hannibal Protocol would have been okayed at the highest level of the Israeli government, particularly with the relative of a top government official involved. And when a military organization or a government moves beyond just killing the captive and his immediate captors to slaughtering everyone in the surrounding area, we’ve moved way beyond a word like “barbaric.”

    Recall, though, that this crime extends well beyond the borders of Israel. For the bombs and shells that were unleashed by the IDF on the people of Rafah as part of this murderous Hannibal Protocol campaign were, for the most part, manufactured and provided, at taxpayer expense, by the United States of America.

    This massive war crime is thus as much a US atrocity as it is an Israeli one.

    And if the Israeli government is criminally insane, so is the US government for uncritically and unthinkingly backing it.

    We knew the US government and its military were criminally insane back in the Vietnam War, when we were told that peasant villages were being burned to the ground by US troops on the theory that “we have to destroy the village in order to save it.” Now we’ve moved a step further towards the depths of insanity in backing an Israeli policy of “slaughtering a village in order to kill one of our own soldiers.” Even in the moral cesspool that was America’s war on the Vietnamese people, the US military didn’t sink to that — they stopped at just slaughtering villlages."
    http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/08/08/the-idfs-hannibal-protocol-and-two-criminally-insane-governments/


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,370 ✭✭✭✭Son Of A Vidic


    And that Israel didn't have the restraint to hold fire.

    When has Israel ever demonstrated restraint? Have you just missed all those civilian deaths & injuries? If so, see the links in the post below to update your knowledge deficit....

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=91626216&postcount=3613


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    jank wrote: »
    So again, lets say Hamas breaks its ceasefire
    Can you answer specifically what ceasefire they broke?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,108 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    I went to the haaretz article. It appears to be in the comment section (if google translate is accurate) so i don't know how accurate that story is.

    It is worth looking at the comments there. there's lots of calls to wipe out the Palestinians.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 9,846 ✭✭✭blackwhite


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    And yet you whine about me only posting in support of certain posts here. Mr Pot allow me to introduce Mr Kettle...

    I made an observation on what your posting style seems to be, I haven't demanded that you do or post anything - (which you seem to think you have a right to do)
    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    And yet I have received a sum total of zero infractions or moderation warnings about being abusive. Hmmm, almost like you're just making stuff up now.

    I never said you were abuse, I said you generally include some petty swipe or jibe in a post. Like above - try to read what's actually been posted before jumping in two-footed in attack mode.


    Anyway, this is serving no purpose other than to distract from the thread.

    As stated, I'd just prefer to have people on what I see as the "right" side of the debate try and stay above descending to the level of some of the extremists on the pro-Israel side.
    If you think that it's acceptable to act as badly as those you claim to oppose, then off with you.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    President Obama wants the world to help in rebuilding Gaza.

    It was American weapons that leveled the place, so the US should pick up the bill imho.

    Having said that we know they won't and it will be up to the International community to pay.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,456 ✭✭✭Icepick


    President Obama wants the world to help in rebuilding Gaza.

    What a joke. His Govt supplied the Israelis and again failed to condemn their murders.
    Now he is shedding crocodile tears.
    Complete hypocrite but then again the Jews control the U.S.
    Antisemitic trite


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,300 ✭✭✭HazDanz


    America give 3.3 billion a year to Israel. Just give some of that money to Gaza to rebuild.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Icepick wrote: »
    Antisemitic trite

    Missed that part of the post, I agree that saying that Jews control the media is nonsense.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 55,612 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    Icepick wrote: »
    Antisemitic trite

    Truth = antisemitic now then :pac:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,414 ✭✭✭Awkward Badger


    President Obama wants the world to help in rebuilding Gaza.

    What a joke. His Govt supplied the Israelis and again failed to condemn their murders.
    Now he is shedding crocodile tears.
    Complete hypocrite but then again the Jews control the U.S.

    People with money and influence control the US. Its all lobby groups. The pro Israel lobby is pretty strong. That's not the same as "the Jews controlling the US" though. Lets leave the Jews out of it and concentrate on the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Palestinians returning home find Israeli troops left faeces and venomous graffiti

    More examples of the deliberate destruction of civilian property by the IDF, and also what were the IDF doing operating from civilian buildings:
    Half an hour's drive north, a similar picture was found at Beit Hanoun girls' school, taken over by the IDF following the ground operation. Broken glass and rubble littered the floors and stairs. Tables and desks were covered in the abandoned detritus of an occupying army: hardened bread rolls, empty tins of hummus, desiccated olives, cans of energy drinks, bullet casings. Flies buzzed around the rotting food.

    Here too, said the school's caretaker, Fayez, who didn't want to give his full name, soldiers had defecated in bins and cardboard boxes, and urinated in water bottles. "You will be ****ed here" and "Don't forget it's time for you to die" were chalked in English on blackboards.

    Operating from a school, even an empty one is a war crime surely, same as the Palestinian militants who stored weapons in empty UN schools. That is also ignored the generally disgusting behavior from the IDF in the way they treated these buildings, causing deliberate destruction like that.


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  • Posts: 9,005 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Pressurized oxygen cylinders most certainly ARE an explosive hazard. It is disingenuous to say oxygen itself is not an explosive.

    I can guarantee you oxygen isn't an explosive.


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