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Israel - Palestine Conflict. **Mod note in OP - updated 1st August**

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Comments

  • #3242
    Tuisceanch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 735 ✭✭✭Tuisceanch


    porsche959 wrote: »
    An inconvenient fact for you to note is the vast majority of Jews around the world fully support state of Israel. I am aware of a faction within Judaism that does not but their numbers are relatively small.

    Well that's an interesting talking point. Here's an article you might want to read. I'll provide a quote from it for your convenience:

    GROWING MOVEMENT OF AMERICAN JEWS SPEAKING OUT AGAINST ASSAULT ON GAZA
    Jewish Voice for Peace activists across the US demand an end to the assault on Gaza and an end to the occupation of Palestine
    August 4, 2014—Unprecedented numbers of Jewish Americans are organizing to call for an end to Israel’s devastating assault on Gaza. In a coordinated effort in dozens of cities across the US, Jewish Voice for Peace (JVP) chapters have organized street protests, demonstrations and civil disobedience actions to call for an end to the invasion, an end to the 7-year-old siege, and an end to the 47-year occupation of Palestine. Since the initiation of the most recent assault on Gaza on July 7, upwards of 1822 Palestinians including at least 377 children and 67 Israelis, 3 of them civilians, have been killed.


    http://tinyurl.com/ma2bnu8

    What would your opinion of these people be? Are they misguided and not exposed to your greater knowledge and understanding? Should you be doing something to re-educate them?


  • #3243
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Willfarman wrote: »
    Iran for example are providing weapons but are they providing aid and refuge for the civilians?

    Palestinians can't actually leave Gaza........


  • #3244
    porsche959
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,499 ✭✭✭porsche959


    dav3 wrote: »
    Ah, playing the 'Jew card' so early in the day. You're not doing yourself any favours. Especially without linking to these attacks "across Europe".


    http://english.alarabiya.net/en/News/middle-east/2014/08/04/Ban-Ki-moon-deplores-rise-of-anti-Semitism-.html

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/religion/italy-expels-imam-for-preaching-hatred-against-jews/2014/08/05/564cc366-1cd1-11e4-9b6c-12e30cbe86a3_story.html

    ^ (To be fair, he was sacked. He will probably now set up a more extremist mosque.)


    http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/outrage-as-belfast-synagogue-target-of-two-attacks-by-thugs-30447926.html

    http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-news/1.607433


  • #3245
    porsche959
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,499 ✭✭✭porsche959


    Tuisceanch wrote: »
    Well that's an interesting talking point. Here's an article you might want to read. I'll provide a quote from it for your convenience:

    GROWING MOVEMENT OF AMERICAN JEWS SPEAKING OUT AGAINST ASSAULT ON GAZA
    Jewish Voice for Peace activists across the US demand an end to the assault on Gaza and an end to the occupation of Palestine
    August 4, 2014—Unprecedented numbers of Jewish Americans are organizing to call for an end to Israel’s devastating assault on Gaza. In a coordinated effort in dozens of cities across the US, Jewish Voice for Peace (JVP) chapters have organized street protests, demonstrations and civil disobedience actions to call for an end to the invasion, an end to the 7-year-old siege, and an end to the 47-year occupation of Palestine. Since the initiation of the most recent assault on Gaza on July 7, upwards of 1822 Palestinians including at least 377 children and 67 Israelis, 3 of them civilians, have been killed.


    http://tinyurl.com/ma2bnu8

    What would your opinion of these people be? Are they misguided and not exposed to your greater knowledge and understanding? Should you be doing something to re-educate them?

    My point stands.

    The vast majority of Jews support the continued existence of the state of Israel. Therefore, they are Zionists. That's what the word means. That does not mean they always support every single action of the state of Israel, of course not. I never suggested anything of the sort.

    Those Jews who are against the existence of the state of Israel are a small minority within Judaism. They might be sincere in their beliefs but in the views of most Jews, they are misguided.


  • #3246
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    porsche959 wrote: »
    http://english.alarabiya.net/en/News/middle-east/2014/08/04/Ban-Ki-moon-deplores-rise-of-anti-Semitism-.html

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/religion/italy-expels-imam-for-preaching-hatred-against-jews/2014/08/05/564cc366-1cd1-11e4-9b6c-12e30cbe86a3_story.html

    ^ (To be fair, he was sacked. He will probably now set up a more extremist mosque.)


    http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/outrage-as-belfast-synagogue-target-of-two-attacks-by-thugs-30447926.html

    http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-news/1.607433
    You missed the bit where you tell us why any of this is relevant.
    Curious. Almost like you can't.


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  • #3247
    porsche959
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,499 ✭✭✭porsche959


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    You missed the bit where you tell us why any of this is relevant.
    Curious. Almost like you can't.

    Do you deny that Jew hate exists in the pro-Gaza movement?


  • #3248
    seamus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,173 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Willfarman wrote: »
    Iran for example are providing weapons but are they providing aid and refuge for the civilians?
    Well since Iran have no actual route to Gaza beyond smuggling, I'm not sure how they'd bring in any meaningful amount of aid, or take out any meaningful amount of refugees.

    I'm not really sure what your point is though? Other nations are not providing aid or refuge because the only access to Gaza is by sea or through Egypt; both routes which are blocked by Egypt and Israel.


  • #3249
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    porsche959 wrote: »
    Do you deny that Jew hate exists in the pro-Gaza movement?
    I deny it is relevant to this discussion Mr Hannity.


  • #3250
    TommyKnocker
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,829 ✭✭✭TommyKnocker


    Willfarman wrote: »
    Iran for example are providing weapons but are they providing aid and refuge for the civilians?

    I do not believe that this is the case any longer. Gaza is under siege and Hamas and Egypt are not on good terms, so I don't see how Iran could get arms into Gaza at this time. That is not to deny that Iran have supplied weapons in the past, just that I do not believe it is an option any longer.


  • #3251
    dav3
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,671 ✭✭✭dav3


    Willfarman wrote: »
    Iran for example are providing weapons but are they providing aid and refuge for the civilians?

    The fact that you are even asking these questions suggests you actually have little or no idea what is going on.

    Have a read of this and come back to us.

    Blockade of the Gaza Strip


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  • #3252
    My name is URL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,609 ✭✭✭✭My name is URL


    porsche959 wrote: »
    Do you deny that Jew hate exists in the pro-Gaza movement?

    Do you deny that a hatred of Muslims and general racism exists in the pro-Israel movement?


  • #3253
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    porsche959 wrote: »
    Do you deny that Jew hate exists in the pro-Gaza movement?

    There is no over arching pro-Gaza movement. There are various different groups, who are protesting against the conflict.

    You could also say that some supporters of Israel are similarly racist.....


  • #3254
    dav3
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,671 ✭✭✭dav3


    porsche959 wrote: »
    ...

    So absolutely nothing to what you had described in your hyperbole earlier.

    Now, let's get back to the IDF using children shields.


  • #3255
    NotASheeple
    Closed Accounts Posts: 424 ✭✭NotASheeple


    porsche959 wrote: »
    Are you denying that the pro-Palestinian movement is awash with Jew hate,

    Awash? More unsubstantiated apologists nonsense :rolleyes:.

    Looking back to when Zionist terrorists created a Zionist state. It doesn't take a genius to work out some might feel hate, when a terrorist state continues it's Zionist agenda.
    porsche959 wrote: »
    as seen in the attacks on synagogues across Europe and "death to Jews" slogans chanted at "pro-Gaza" marches?

    The world media has extensively covered these rallies and I've seen nothing anti-semitic at all. Now they have been against Zionism, I trust you understand the difference?


  • #3256
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Seeing as Eurpoean aid boats are fired upon and all on board imprisoned, I can't see Iranian boats faring much better myself.


  • #3257
    porsche959
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,499 ✭✭✭porsche959


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    I deny it is relevant to this discussion Mr Hannity.

    I think it is, as for Hannity, can't stand him. Obnoxious blow-hard IMO.


  • #3258
    RustyNut
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,427 ✭✭✭RustyNut


    Willfarman wrote: »
    Iran for example are providing weapons but are they providing aid and refuge for the civilians?

    How many civilians were killed by Iranian supplied weapons in the last few weeks


  • #3259
    jaffusmax
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,604 ✭✭✭jaffusmax


    I know it will never happen but entire Holy Land should come under UN/International Control. Both sides will only either integrate or live peacefully in Dual States under the umbrella of Non Partisan Ruling Force.

    I have been shocked by the Israeli indifference to the value of Human Life unless it is their own. I grew up watching and reading about how Nazi lead Holocaust tried to wipe the Jewish people from the earth and now we have all bared witness to a Jewish State bombarding a Massive Palestine Ghetto. We all know how Barbaric Hamas is but that has been equalled by the vitriolic anti Arab hatred and indifference to innocent women and children's deaths from the Israelis!

    The behaviour of Israel has tarnished the memory of the millions of innocent Jews that died in the Holocaust!


  • #3260
    Tuisceanch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 735 ✭✭✭Tuisceanch


    porsche959 wrote: »
    My point stands.

    The vast majority of Jews support the continued existence of the state of Israel. Therefore, they are Zionists. That's what the word means. That does not mean they always support every single action of the state of Israel, of course not. I never suggesting anything of the sort.

    Those Jews who are against the existence of the state of Israel are a small minority within Judaism. They might be sincere in their beliefs but in the views of most Jews, they are misguided.


    But these people are not against the existence of the state of Israel and far from it but rather deplore the actions and policies of it's government. Israel is a de-facto state and nobody should suggest it shouldn't exist but it needs to resolve the historic wrong it has committed against the Palestinians and be a genuine partner for peace. You will argue they are but others based on detailed research and many of them Jewish intellectuals,whom I would guess you would not hold in high esteem,are completely of the opinion that it is Israel who has not sought a peaceful reconciliation and there is always the rather irrefutable evidence of the continued expansion of the settlements and the brutalization of the Palestinians under military occupation who are not afforded proper legal recourse and are denied basic human rights.


  • #3261
    porsche959
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,499 ✭✭✭porsche959


    My name is URL wrote: »
    Do you deny that a hatred of Muslims and general racism exists in the pro-Israel movement?

    No, I don't. It certainly exists. Some of the extremists on the fringes of the neo-cons are nutty.


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  • #3262
    user2011
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,071 ✭✭✭user2011


    porsche959 wrote: »
    Do you deny that Jew hate exists in the pro-Gaza movement?

    A section of it yes but saying the movement is a wash with Jew hate.


  • #3263
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    wes wrote: »
    There is no over arching pro-Gaza movement. There are various different groups, who are protesting against the conflict.

    You could also say that some supporters of Israel are similarly racist.....
    Well you don't have to just suggest it. Israel is a 100% provable racist state, with citizenship rights dependent on ethnic background.
    Zionist/pro-Israel = racist


  • #3264
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    RustyNut wrote: »
    How many civilians were killed by Iranian supplied weapons in the last few weeks
    Compared to, for example, US supplied ones.


  • #3265
    user2011
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,071 ✭✭✭user2011


    porsche959 wrote: »
    No, I don't. It certainly exists. Some of the extremists on the fringes of the neo-cons are nutty.

    :eek: they hold powerful positions in Government and in the IDF


  • #3266
    NotASheeple
    Closed Accounts Posts: 424 ✭✭NotASheeple


    porsche959 wrote: »
    No, I don't. It certainly exists. Some of the extremists on the fringes of the neo-cons are nutty.

    Thus implying neo-cons themselves aren't nutty. Which of course couldn't be further from the truth.


  • #3267
    porsche959
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,499 ✭✭✭porsche959


    Tuisceanch wrote: »
    But these people are not against the existence of the state of Israel and far from it but rather deplore the actions and policies of it's government.

    Agreed that's exactly my point.
    Tuisceanch wrote: »
    Israel is a de-facto state and nobody should suggest it shouldn't exist...

    Many do, including people who have posted in this very thread, Dan Solo for example.
    Tuisceanch wrote: »
    You will argue they are but others based on detailed research and many of them Jewish intellectuals,whom I would guess you would not hold in high esteem,are completely of the opinion that it is Israel who has not sought a peaceful reconciliation and there is always the rather irrefutable evidence of the continued expansion of the settlements and the brutalization of the Palestinians under military occupation who are not afforded proper legal recourse and are denied basic human rights.

    That is the view of a few Jewish intellectuals, e.g. Chomsky. Many hold a different view.


  • #3268
    porsche959
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,499 ✭✭✭porsche959


    NotASheeple wrote: »
    Thus implying neo-cons themselves aren't nutty. Which of course couldn't be further from the truth.

    So an entire political philosophy is nuts. Well, that's not debating, really, is it, it's just excluding philosophies you don't happen to agree with (I do not consider myself a neo-con, for the record).


  • #3269
    dav3
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,671 ✭✭✭dav3


    user2011 wrote: »
    The links are up in reply to you.

    It was a 9 year old boy. 11 years old when that piece was written.

    Israeli soldiers who used Palestinian boy, 9, as a human shield avoid jail


  • #3270
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    porsche959 wrote: »
    Many do, including people who have posted in this very thread

    Care to show where in International law, do states have rights?

    Israelis have rights, Palestinians have rights. Neither a Palestinians or and Israeli state has an inherent right to exist. However, Israelis and Palestinians have a right to self determination. Neither of those rights supersede the other.

    Secondly, if states did have rights, then its Israel that is violating the crap out of Palestine's right to exist, with all those settlements and what not.


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  • #3271
    user2011
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,071 ✭✭✭user2011


    porsche959 wrote: »
    So an entire political philosophy is nuts. Well, that's not debating, really, is it, it's just excluding philosophies you don't happen to agree with (I do not consider myself a neo-con, for the record).

    Yes but it's Okay for you to post nonsense that the pro-Gaza movement is a wash with Jew hate?


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