Advertisement
Help Keep Boards Alive. Support us by going ad free today. See here: https://subscriptions.boards.ie/.
If we do not hit our goal we will be forced to close the site.

Current status: https://keepboardsalive.com/

Annual subs are best for most impact. If you are still undecided on going Ad Free - you can also donate using the Paypal Donate option. All contribution helps. Thank you.
https://www.boards.ie/group/1878-subscribers-forum

Private Group for paid up members of Boards.ie. Join the club.

Israel - Palestine Conflict. **Mod note in OP - updated 1st August**

1…103104106108109…174

Comments

  • #3152
    greenflash
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 499 ✭✭greenflash


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Gaza is one of the most densely populated regions on earth, due to a mix of poverty and Israeli land grabs. Hamas have no choice about where to put their weapons.


    Of course they have a choice. Even if you disregard the Israeli propaganda myth of Gaza being lightly populated, a quick glance at google earth or google images reveals plenty of open space away from concentrations of civilians and other sensitive buildings but it would be tactically insane for Hamas and other groups to operate from those areas.


  • #3153
    SeaBreezes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,563 ✭✭✭SeaBreezes


    WakeUp wrote: »
    Israel withdraws, but Gazas health system on the brink :

    "The Israeli military has withdrawn from Gaza, but that doesn't mean Gazan troubles are over. On Saturday, UN officials said that Gaza's medical services and facilities were "on the verge of collapse". By the time Israeli forces had withdrawn, more than 1800 Palestinians – most of them civilians and almost 400 of them children – and 67 Israelis had died. The damage to Gaza's health system is extensive.

    During the conflict, a third of Gaza's hospitals were damaged, as were 14 of the strip's 33 primary healthcare clinics, and 29 ambulances operating in the zone. At least five medical staff died on duty, with tens injured, and at least 40 per cent of medical staff have routinely been unable to reach their workplaces because of the disruption.

    A report released on Monday by the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs estimates that at least 373,000 children need psychological support and counselling, and one-quarter of Gaza's population of 1.8 million are now displaced, with 270,000 in shelters run by the UN Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA).
    http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn26004-israel-withdraws-but-gazas-health-system-is-on-brink.html?cmpid=RSS%7CNSNS%7C2012-GLOBAL%7Chealth#.U-H6DYm9Kc1

    The crisis is only starting. No food, no water, no shelter, no UN centres, no schools, no hospitals. Its almost as though it was deliberate genocide...

    Boycott not just Israeli goods, but start an international outcry against the petroleum companies that plan to develop gas fields that belong to Gaza, and give them to Israel..

    Name and shame.


  • #3154
    greenflash
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 499 ✭✭greenflash


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    Apologies, I should have specified that I was referring to Gaza City as opposed to the entire Strip.
    Point is, as I mentioned, Hamas' firing of rockets from such areas is completely unacceptable, but so is any Israeli aerial military operation. Both are bound to cause civilian casualties and both in my view amount to mass murder.


    My point exactly. It's quite scary how little balance or sense there is at times in this thread.


  • #3155
    eeepaulo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,484 ✭✭✭eeepaulo


    greenflash wrote: »
    My point exactly. It's quite scary how little balance or sense there is at times in this thread.

    It's quite scary how little balance or sense there is at times in this thread. Israel


  • #3156
    Tuisceanch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 735 ✭✭✭Tuisceanch


    Willfarman wrote: »
    A lot of bandwagon do gooders on their soap boxes. Hamas use civilians as human shields. Israel warns them to move from these target areas yet Hamas encourage them to act as human shields. How do you protect yourself against a regime that martyrs suicide bombers?
    It's terrible what's happening but it's not simple bad guy good guy.


    It's certainly not an issue to be reduced to such simplistic terms and would be a terrible disservice to the people of Palestine and Israel and their respective supporters who believe that a genuine peaceful solution to a historic wrong needs to be addressed with absolute sincerity..from both sides.It does a disservice to those people when others reduce the argument by focusing on one particular element to the absolute exclusion of all others. The onus on people who have no vested interest in the issue, except the common cause of humanity, is to be as educated and informed on the matter so that they can bring pressure on their respective governments and the international bodies to do their duty and prevent such outrages. The fact these bodies have done nothing over such a prolonged period of time should be a great worry to you and the nature of the democracy that you imagine you are living in.


  • Advertisement
  • #3157
    Peist2007
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,257 ✭✭✭Peist2007


    comongethappy wrote: »
    Which is a perfectly valid opinion to have.

    Once people are as honest & up front about supporting islamist groups I have no issue, (other than being against it myself),

    So there it is. What does them being Islamic have anything to do with it? If this were happening in China i would support the invaded and oppressed party at any time. You, on the other hand, have drawn your lines based on religion. Shame on you.


  • #3158
    greenflash
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 499 ✭✭greenflash


    Grayson wrote: »

    So Hamas are in the sparsely populated area that has twice the population density of cork. Cork must be a wilderness then.


    Pretty much yes, Cork is a wilderness is more ways than one. It certainly is not comparable to other cities across Europe or the world in terms of population density and is therefore a terrible example to use here.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_proper_by_population_density
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_city_districts_by_population_density


    Gaza City does not even get listed in the world rankings of cities and city districts sorted by population density.


  • #3159
    Little CuChulainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    Willfarman wrote: »
    A lot of bandwagon do gooders on their soap boxes. Hamas use civilians as human shields. Israel warns them to move from these target areas yet Hamas encourage them to act as human shields. How do you protect yourself against a regime that martyrs suicide bombers?
    It's terrible what's happening but it's not simple bad guy good guy.

    For a start, you could close your borders to them and stop occupying more and more of their land. You could also try win the support of the average Palestinian by not blowing them up and starving them, thereby reducing the support for the terrorist organisation.


  • #3160
    greenflash
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 499 ✭✭greenflash


    eeepaulo wrote: »
    It's quite scary how little balance or sense there is at times in this thread. Israel


    Aren't you clever!



    Israel is not attempting a balanced response, it is using its superior firepower, wealth and situation to smash the fk out of its enemy.


  • #3161
    Tuisceanch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 735 ✭✭✭Tuisceanch


    greenflash wrote: »
    My point exactly. It's quite scary how little balance or sense there is at times in this thread.

    There is nothing scary about typing on your computer in the safety of your home. What's genuinely scary is living in a state of war not knowing if this day will be your last and hoping that there is still a shred of humanity left in the world that will bear testimony to your suffering. If you feel your point of view is not being represented in a balanced manner then why not expand on your thinking and not keep reducing the discussion to terms which have being discussed endlessly all ready.


  • Advertisement
  • #3162
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,411 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    Willfarman wrote: »
    A lot of bandwagon do gooders on their soap boxes. Hamas use civilians as human shields. Israel warns them to move from these target areas yet Hamas encourage them to act as human shields. How do you protect yourself against a regime that martyrs suicide bombers?
    It's terrible what's happening but it's not simple bad guy good guy.

    Target areas like UN Shelters?

    If they can't go to a UN Shelter, there's nowhere else for them to go.


  • #3163
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    greenflash wrote: »
    Not "human shields" in the classic sense but Hamas and other Palestinian groups deliberately draw fire into highly populated civilian areas.


    http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/ndtv-s-hamas-exclusive-is-an-international-headline-571487?fb


    It seems to me to be in both sides' interests to maximise civilian casualties. Israel are in the business of supressing an entire population, possibly in the hope that if they inflict enough death and suffering on the general population, the Islamic militants within their midst will be admit defeat. Hamas and other groups seem more than willing to sacrifice as many of their own people as is necessary to continue to win their war of propaganda and turning global opinion against Israel.


    Problem is Israel isn't deterred by western opinion and protest, Hamas and co will not accept defeat in order to stop their civilian population being slaughtered and the one power that could put an end to this is busy making money for its politically influential arms industry. I don't see a real end to the situation unless Israel disarms and is wiped off the map or Hamas gives in and the Palestinians are obliterated.

    Have you seen Gaza? Nearly 2 million people crammed into a small space = nothing but highly populated civilian areas.


  • #3164
    Awkward Badger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,414 ✭✭✭Awkward Badger


    greenflash wrote: »
    Pretty much yes, Cork is a wilderness is more ways than one. It certainly is not comparable to other cities across Europe or the world in terms of population density and is therefore a terrible example to use here.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_proper_by_population_density
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_city_districts_by_population_density


    Gaza City does not even get listed in the world rankings of cities and city districts sorted by population density.

    That just goes against your point that the population is concentrated into specific areas and that Hamas should fire rockets from the less densely populated areas. If the City isn't that densely populated by your reckoning yet Gaza overall has a high population density then surely no matter where they go there's going to be a high concentration of civilians ?

    It doesn't really absolve Israel of their crimes in killing civilians that Hamas are firing rickets from densely populated areas anyway.


  • #3165
    Tuisceanch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 735 ✭✭✭Tuisceanch


    old_aussie wrote: »
    Middle East conflict, easiest to explain, hardest to solve.

    Why has it become so hard to solve?

    http://www.prageruniversity.com/Political-Science/Middle-East-Problem.html

    Well I think if anybody had the misfortune to have wasted their money on a geo-political course at that university if all their 'learning' leads them to such an 'understanding' then they should have the university charged under the trade descriptions act.


  • #3166
    Tuisceanch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 735 ✭✭✭Tuisceanch


    old_aussie wrote: »
    Middle East conflict, easiest to explain, hardest to solve.

    Why has it become so hard to solve?

    http://www.prageruniversity.com/Political-Science/Middle-East-Problem.html

    He posted and disappeared to his next assignment..his duty done here.


  • #3167
    Tuisceanch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 735 ✭✭✭Tuisceanch


    porsche959 wrote: »
    That is false - a straightforward, defamatory fib, and I'm calling you out on it. It isn't a blood libel in precise terms but it's worringly close.



    Why are you so obessed with Israel? Have you said a word - one word - about ISIS slaughter of religious minorities in Syria and Iraq?

    Every person has to ask themselves why their outrage is so great when it comes to Israel, yet the CAR conflict, South Sudan, ISIS in Syria and Iraq have seemingly faded or at least we don't see as much outrage about them.

    Is it that when the Jews do it, it is so much worse? If so, then it is anti-semitism.


    A barrage of posts the like that has never being seen full of righteous indignation and without waiting for a reply to his anguished pleas for balance fled the scene of the crime.


  • #3168
    greenflash
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 499 ✭✭greenflash


    Awkward Badger wrote: »
    That just goes against your point that the population is concentrated into specific areas and that Hamas should fire rockets from the less densely populated areas. If the City isn't that densely populated by your reckoning yet Gaza overall has a high population density then surely no matter where they go there's going to be a high concentration of civilians ?

    It doesn't really absolve Israel of their crimes in killing civilians that Hamas are firing rickets from densely populated areas anyway.


    Huh? It proves, if anything, that there are open areas in the strip, even in Gaza City itself. Use the stats above in conjunction with a look at google earth and images and see that there is open land which could be used by Palestinian fighters as rocket/mortar launch sites, should they choose to limit casualties amongst their own civilian population.

    That said, I'd much rather not see weapons being launched in either direction and I've never suggested that Israel should be absolved from their crimes because of Hamas firing rockets (or rickets for that matter) from Civilian areas.


  • #3169
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    porsche959 wrote: »
    That is false - a straightforward, defamatory fib, and I'm calling you out on it. It isn't a blood libel in precise terms but it's worringly close.
    Blood Libel? Don't make me laugh! Your ADL-inspired guilt trips doesn't concern me. What does concern me is the rivers of blood, the mountains of corpses, the traumatised, orphaned Children and the humanitarian crisis that has been created by TERR-OR-ISTS - The terrorist state of Israel.

    Terrorism | Define Terrorism at Dictionary.com

    Översätt den här sidan

    Terrorism definition, the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, especially for political purposes.
    porsche959 wrote: »
    Why are you so obessed with Israel? Have you said a word - one word - about ISIS slaughter of religious minorities in Syria and Iraq? .
    Got the humble pie ready?

    I have. Here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=90863676&postcount=6

    And here I describe them as " jihadis and international mercenaries who are cannibals, suicide-bombers, throat-cutters and make children dig their own graves while they film"
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=86174173&postcount=19
    porsche959 wrote: »
    Every person has to ask themselves why their outrage is so great when it comes to Israel, yet the CAR conflict, South Sudan, ISIS in Syria and Iraq have seemingly faded or at least we don't see as much outrage about them.

    Is it that when the Jews do it, it is so much worse? If so, then it is anti-semitism.
    What makes you Think the "outrage" is any different? The only difference is that these terrorist Groups and rogue states have few if any defenders and apologists and therefore there is no debate to be had.

    Fortunately, ISIS don't have a billion dollar a year lobby indoctrinating people to justify their terrorism, criminality and fascism.


  • #3170
    Awkward Badger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,414 ✭✭✭Awkward Badger


    Tuisceanch wrote: »
    Well I think if anybody had the misfortune to have wasted their money on a geo-political course at that university if all their 'learning' leads them to such an 'understanding' then they should have the university charged under the trade descriptions act.

    Its not a university, it seems to be someone masquerading their agenda as education by calling 5 minute videos "courses" and sticking "university" in the name of it. Its all grade A horse shít.


    I see one "course" about how belief in god is as rational or even more so than atheism because something had to have created the universe and it takes more faith in saying it came from nothing than saying God created it. Completely ignoring the fact atheism isn't the belief that the universe came from nothing or that believing the religious god of the Abraham religions creating the universe isn't really any more rational than thinking Optimus Prime of the Transformers made it. They have another "course" called the Israel test. This is the description.
    Course Description

    Would you believe us if we said that the best litmus test of any society's success is its attitude towards Israel? Well, it's true. As George Gilder explains, whether a society envies and resents Israel's success or celebrates and tries to replicate it is indicative of that society's progress. Countries that "pass" the "Israel Test" tend to rise. Those who don't tend to sink. So, does your society pass the "Israel Test"? In five minutes, find out.

    I really hope Old Aussie hasn't wasted too much of his time watching this shíte.


  • #3171
    RustyNut
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,427 ✭✭✭RustyNut


    Kertrada wrote: »



    Israel is not attempting a balanced response, it is using its superior firepower, wealth and situation to slaughter innocent Palestinian men women and children regardless of whether they were sleeping in a UN place of safety or were playing on the beach.

    FYP


  • Advertisement
  • #3172
    Tuisceanch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 735 ✭✭✭Tuisceanch


    Awkward Badger wrote: »
    Its not a university, it seems to be someone masquerading their agenda as education by calling 5 minute videos "courses" and sticking "university" in the name of it. Its all grade A horse shít.


    I see one "course" about how belief in god is as rational or even more so than atheism because something had to have created the universe and it takes more faith in saying it came from nothing than saying God created it. Completely ignoring the fact atheism isn't the belief that the universe came from nothing or that believing the religious god of the Abraham religions creating the universe isn't really any more rational than thinking Optimus Prime of the Transformers made it. They have another "course" called the Israel test. This is the description.



    I really hope Old Aussie hasn't wasted too much of his time watching this shíte.

    Don't be too quick to dismiss a potential customer. Perhaps he could be convinced to enroll on a makey up course of our own design which panders to his world view. By charging an extortionate fee we can add credibility to the course as everybody knows the more you spend on something is a measure of it's quality like paying 30 euros for a pair of underpants.


  • #3173
    Grayson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,125 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    greenflash wrote: »
    Pretty much yes, Cork is a wilderness is more ways than one. It certainly is not comparable to other cities across Europe or the world in terms of population density and is therefore a terrible example to use here.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_proper_by_population_density
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_city_districts_by_population_density


    Gaza City does not even get listed in the world rankings of cities and city districts sorted by population density.

    But cork is hardly sparsely populated. it is still an urban area. That's what my point. The most sparsely populated area in Gaza is still twice as dense as Cork. It doesn't matter if it's less than Tokyo or any other city with a huge skyline, it's still pretty dense area.

    It's also in a tiny area. gaza is only 5-6 miles across at some places. Even if you manage to get away from population centres, it's still going to be tough to get distance from people.
    Finally, Israel has imposed a 3km buffer zone next to the boarder and instructed all Gazan's to move beyond it. Apparently that reduced the area where Palestinians can be by 40%. That means that the remainder is even more densly populated.


  • #3174
    TommyKnocker
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,829 ✭✭✭TommyKnocker


    OMG, Well done the London Times and shame on the US papers who ran with this Ad. And people don't think that Zionists have control of the media.

    http://www.haaretz.com/news/world/1.609096

    Don't do as we do, do as we say

    http://www.rense.com/general67/idf.htm


  • #3175
    greenflash
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 499 ✭✭greenflash


    The point is that should Palestinian militants be inclined to find open spaces away from civilian population centres they could do so, but instead select residential/functional locations from which to launch their ineffective rockets and mortars.


    As with all my other posts, I'll add that this does not make Israel's murder of civilians acceptable in any way, I'm just looking at all aspects of the conflict.


  • #3176
    comongethappy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,756 ✭✭✭comongethappy


    greenflash wrote: »
    The point is that should Palestinian militants be inclined to find open spaces away from civilian population centres they could do so, but instead select residential/functional locations from which to launch their ineffective rockets and mortars

    If the attacked from the open, they would be much easier to kill.... So it isn't going to happen.


  • #3177
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,411 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    greenflash wrote: »
    The point is that should Palestinian militants be inclined to find open spaces away from civilian population centres they could do so, but instead select residential/functional locations from which to launch their ineffective rockets and mortars.


    As with all my other posts, I'll add that this does not make Israel's murder of civilians acceptable in any way, I'm just looking at all aspects of the conflict.

    UN Shelters?


  • #3178
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    greenflash wrote: »
    The point is that should Palestinian militants be inclined to find open spaces away from civilian population centres they could do so, but instead select residential/functional locations from which to launch their ineffective rockets and mortars.
    But your "point" has been disproven multiple times now. No such "open spaces" exist as Israel continue to compress Gaza through repeated land grabs.


  • #3179
    greenflash
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 499 ✭✭greenflash


    comongethappy wrote: »
    If the attacked from the open, they would be much easier to kill.... So it isn't going to happen.


    Like I said http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=91601132&postcount=3152


  • #3180
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    TommyKnocker wrote: »
    OMG, Well done the London Times and shame on the US papers who ran with this Ad. And people don't think that Zionists have control of the media.

    http://www.haaretz.com/news/world/1.609096

    Don't do as we do, do as we say

    http://www.rense.com/general67/idf.htm
    "Nobel Peace laureate"... just like Kissinger and Obama, eh?


  • Advertisement
  • #3181
    Awkward Badger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,414 ✭✭✭Awkward Badger


    Tuisceanch wrote: »
    Don't be too quick to dismiss a potential customer. Perhaps he could be convinced to enroll on a makey up course of our own design which panders to his world view. By charging an extortionate fee we can add credibility to the course as everybody knows the more you spend on something is a measure of it's quality like paying 30 euros for a pair of underpants.

    I'm sure these people make a nice little sum for their public appearances but the shíte on the website is free. Which is worse. Because its the opinion of this Denis Prager an American radio host and an outspoken supporter of Israel. And he's calling himself a lecturer, boiling the entire issue down to a 5 minute argument of "Israel is a victim and the Arabs are trying to destroy it", calling it a course on political science, sticking it on a website with "university" in the name and people are eating it up and going off thinking its such a simple issue.


Advertisement