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Israel - Palestine Conflict. **Mod note in OP - updated 1st August**

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Comments

  • #3122
    old_aussie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,409 ✭✭✭old_aussie


    Middle East conflict, easiest to explain, hardest to solve.

    Why has it become so hard to solve?

    http://www.prageruniversity.com/Political-Science/Middle-East-Problem.html


  • #3123
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,411 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    old_aussie wrote: »
    Middle East conflict, easiest to explain, hardest to solve.

    Why has it become so hard to solve?

    http://www.prageruniversity.com/Political-Science/Middle-East-Problem.html

    Because they don't accept compromise.


  • #3124
    TommyKnocker
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,829 ✭✭✭TommyKnocker


    old_aussie wrote: »
    Middle East conflict, easiest to explain, hardest to solve.

    Why has it become so hard to solve?

    http://www.prageruniversity.com/Political-Science/Middle-East-Problem.html

    That Video is absolute rubbish. I would suggest watching

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etXAm-OylQQ


    It's a little longer than your 5 minute propaganda video, but vastly more informative ;)


  • #3125
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    old_aussie wrote: »
    Middle East conflict, easiest to explain, hardest to solve.

    Why has it become so hard to solve?

    http://www.prageruniversity.com/Political-Science/Middle-East-Problem.html
    **** link.
    Israel wants to live in peace but unfortunately a lot of what they consider to be Israel appears to belong to somebody else, hence they start wars to steal it.


  • #3126
    laugh
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,745 ✭✭✭laugh


    old_aussie wrote: »
    Middle East conflict, easiest to explain, hardest to solve.

    Why has it become so hard to solve?

    http://www.prageruniversity.com/Political-Science/Middle-East-Problem.html

    http://www.prageruniversity.com/about.php

    ^
    Chief Operating Officer - Melissa Streit

    "served in the IDF in military intelligence"


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  • #3127
    WakeUp
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,823 ✭✭✭WakeUp


    old_aussie wrote: »
    Middle East conflict, easiest to explain, hardest to solve.

    Why has it become so hard to solve?

    http://www.prageruniversity.com/Political-Science/Middle-East-Problem.html
    old_aussie wrote: »
    Middle East conflict, easiest to explain, hardest to solve.

    Why has it become so hard to solve?

    http://www.prageruniversity.com/Political-Science/Middle-East-Problem.html
    old_aussie wrote: »
    Middle East conflict, easiest to explain, hardest to solve.

    Why has it become so hard to solve?

    http://www.prageruniversity.com/Political-Science/Middle-East-Problem.html

    **** Prager University is not an accredited academic institution
    and does not offer certifications or diplomas.
    But it is a place where you are free to learn.

    Learn says Denis. right so. some of the other "courses" on offer include - Iran and the bomb - do you pass the Israel test and BDS the attempt to strangle Israel. wouldn't think much solving goes on in Dens magic university. where learning is funny.


  • #3128
    Awkward Badger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,414 ✭✭✭Awkward Badger


    old_aussie wrote: »
    Middle East conflict, easiest to explain, hardest to solve.

    Why has it become so hard to solve?

    http://www.prageruniversity.com/Political-Science/Middle-East-Problem.html
    The Middle East conflict is framed as one of the most complex problems in the world. But, in reality, it's very simple. Israelis want to live in peace and are willing to accept a neighboring Palestinian state. And most Palestinians do not want Israel to exist. As Dennis Prager explains, this is really all you need to know.

    Maybe all you need to know for the over simplified and ignorant American view to justify Israel doing whatever it wants. This Dennis Prager sounds like a bit of an idiot.


  • #3129
    BeerWolf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,122 ✭✭✭BeerWolf


    TommyKnocker wrote: »
    That Video is absolute rubbish. I would suggest watching

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etXAm-OylQQ


    It's a little longer than your 5 minute propaganda video, but vastly more informative ;)

    1 hour ? I'll make sure to watch it with me dinner later today... :o
    Awkward Badger wrote: »
    The Middle East conflict is framed as one of the most complex problems in the world. But, in reality, it's very simple. Israelis want to live in peace and are willing to accept a neighboring Palestinian state. And most Palestinians do not want Israel to exist. As Dennis Prager explains, this is really all you need to know.
    Maybe all you need to know for the over simplified and ignorant American view to justify Israel doing whatever it wants. This Dennis Prager sounds like a bit of an idiot.

    lol - pretty much didn't bother reading past that...


  • #3130
    dav3
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,671 ✭✭✭dav3


    WakeUp wrote: »
    **** Prager University is not an accredited academic institution
    and does not offer certifications or diplomas.
    But it is a place where you are free to learn.

    Learn says Denis. right so. some of the other "courses" on offer include - Iran and the bomb - do you pass the Israel test and BDS the attempt to strangle Israel. wouldn't think much solving goes on in Dens magic university. where learning is funny.

    I tried the 'Do You Pass the Israel Test'. Unfortunately I failed.

    Question 5 was a laugh.

    People who admire success and pass the Israel Test, tend to be:

    A: Wealthy and peaceful.
    B: Poor and upset.
    C: Wealthy and anti-Israel.
    D: Poor and anti-israel.


  • #3131
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    old_aussie wrote: »
    Middle East conflict, easiest to explain, hardest to solve.

    Why has it become so hard to solve?

    http://www.prageruniversity.com/Political-Science/Middle-East-Problem.html
    Oh yeah, putting the word "university" in your website name doesn't stop it being just another ****ty blog.


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  • #3132
    Willfarman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,239 ✭✭✭Willfarman


    A lot of bandwagon do gooders on their soap boxes. Hamas use civilians as human shields. Israel warns them to move from these target areas yet Hamas encourage them to act as human shields. How do you protect yourself against a regime that martyrs suicide bombers?
    It's terrible what's happening but it's not simple bad guy good guy.


  • #3133
    R P McMurphy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,129 ✭✭✭R P McMurphy


    Willfarman wrote: »
    A lot of bandwagon do gooders on their soap boxes. Hamas use civilians as human shields. Israel warns them to move from these target areas yet Hamas encourage them to act as human shields. How do you protect yourself against a regime that martyrs suicide bombers?
    It's terrible what's happening but it's not simple bad guy good guy.

    very insightful critique


  • #3134
    WakeUp
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,823 ✭✭✭WakeUp


    Willfarman wrote: »
    A lot of bandwagon do gooders on their soap boxes. Hamas use civilians as human shields. Israel warns them to move from these target areas yet Hamas encourage them to act as human shields. How do you protect yourself against a regime that martyrs suicide bombers?
    It's terrible what's happening but it's not simple bad guy good guy.

    But you've just simplified it into bad guy good guy can you not see what you did there?..what's a bandwagon do gooder Willy? what's that..


  • #3135
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    Willfarman wrote: »
    A lot of bandwagon do gooders on their soap boxes. Hamas use civilians as human shields. Israel warns them to move from these target areas yet Hamas encourage them to act as human shields. How do you protect yourself against a regime that martyrs suicide bombers?
    It's terrible what's happening but it's not simple bad guy good guy.

    *sigh*

    There is zero evidence of Hamas using "human shields" and as for Israel warning people to move, where do they go to? UN shelters? How did that work for these innocent kids?

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/israel-presses-attack-16-killed-at-un-school/2014/07/30/4a643588-17a5-11e4-85b6-c1451e622637_story.html


  • #3136
    WakeUp
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,823 ✭✭✭WakeUp


    Israel withdraws, but Gazas health system on the brink :

    "The Israeli military has withdrawn from Gaza, but that doesn't mean Gazan troubles are over. On Saturday, UN officials said that Gaza's medical services and facilities were "on the verge of collapse". By the time Israeli forces had withdrawn, more than 1800 Palestinians – most of them civilians and almost 400 of them children – and 67 Israelis had died. The damage to Gaza's health system is extensive.

    During the conflict, a third of Gaza's hospitals were damaged, as were 14 of the strip's 33 primary healthcare clinics, and 29 ambulances operating in the zone. At least five medical staff died on duty, with tens injured, and at least 40 per cent of medical staff have routinely been unable to reach their workplaces because of the disruption.

    A report released on Monday by the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs estimates that at least 373,000 children need psychological support and counselling, and one-quarter of Gaza's population of 1.8 million are now displaced, with 270,000 in shelters run by the UN Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA).
    http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn26004-israel-withdraws-but-gazas-health-system-is-on-brink.html?cmpid=RSS%7CNSNS%7C2012-GLOBAL%7Chealth#.U-H6DYm9Kc1


  • #3137
    dav3
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,671 ✭✭✭dav3


    Willfarman wrote: »
    A lot of bandwagon do gooders on their soap boxes...It's terrible what's happening but it's not simple bad guy good guy.

    Is it a bad thing to want to 'do good'?

    As for the human shield myth and Hamas forcing people to stay in their homes.

    How do you explain the quarter of a million Palestinians currently being sheltered by the UN?


  • #3138
    greenflash
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 499 ✭✭greenflash


    bumper234 wrote: »
    *sigh*

    There is zero evidence of Hamas using "human shields" and as for Israel warning people to move, where do they go to? UN shelters? How did that work for these innocent kids?

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/israel-presses-attack-16-killed-at-un-school/2014/07/30/4a643588-17a5-11e4-85b6-c1451e622637_story.html


    Not "human shields" in the classic sense but Hamas and other Palestinian groups deliberately draw fire into highly populated civilian areas.


    http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/ndtv-s-hamas-exclusive-is-an-international-headline-571487?fb


    It seems to me to be in both sides' interests to maximise civilian casualties. Israel are in the business of supressing an entire population, possibly in the hope that if they inflict enough death and suffering on the general population, the Islamic militants within their midst will be admit defeat. Hamas and other groups seem more than willing to sacrifice as many of their own people as is necessary to continue to win their war of propaganda and turning global opinion against Israel.


    Problem is Israel isn't deterred by western opinion and protest, Hamas and co will not accept defeat in order to stop their civilian population being slaughtered and the one power that could put an end to this is busy making money for its politically influential arms industry. I don't see a real end to the situation unless Israel disarms and is wiped off the map or Hamas gives in and the Palestinians are obliterated.


  • #3139
    BeerWolf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,122 ✭✭✭BeerWolf


    porsche959 wrote: »
    Which entire area would that be?

    Map ( Link )


  • #3140
    TommyKnocker
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,829 ✭✭✭TommyKnocker


    Willfarman wrote: »
    A lot of bandwagon do gooders on their soap boxes.

    Since when is wanting to do good for the disenfranchised a bad thing? And if we are standing on "Soap Boxes" its' only to be heard over the noise created by the Zionist apologiests.
    Willfarman wrote: »
    Hamas use civilians as human shields.

    Zionist propaganda
    Willfarman wrote: »
    Israel warns them to move from these target areas

    Wow, how big of them. Excuse me mr/mrs unarmed, non combatant Gaza civilian, please get out of you house as we are going to blow it off the face of the earth. Why? because we can and hate Arabs.
    Willfarman wrote: »
    yet Hamas encourage them to act as human shields.

    More Zionist propaganda
    Willfarman wrote: »
    How do you protect yourself against a regime that martyrs suicide bombers?

    I don't know. But maybe giving back all the land stolen for illegal settlements, opening the blockade, stop treating the Palestinian Arab community as fourth class citizens and allow them to live free and with dignity would be a place to start.
    Willfarman wrote: »
    It's terrible what's happening

    Yes, agreed, it really is and Israel and the US specifically need to answer for what has gone on and be allowed go on over the last month in Palestine/Gaza.
    Willfarman wrote: »
    but it's not as simple as bad guy good guy.

    True. It's a case of bad guy (Hamas) really really really bad guy (Israeli State/IDF)


  • #3141
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,798 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    greenflash wrote: »
    Not "human shields" in the classic sense but Hamas and other Palestinian groups deliberately draw fire into highly populated civilian areas.

    Firstly, that is a very far cry from the image that "human shields" conjures up. I am reminded of the use of the word "teen" to refer to a 19 year old performing a sex act a few weeks ago, with the obvious intention of causing underage assumptions among casual readers.

    So now that we're accepting that "human shields" in the traditional sense are not being used, we can address the real point which is the basing of militants in populated areas: Gaza, as has been previously mentioned, is so overpopulated that it's more or less impossible to do anything without being near somebody's house. Ergo if Hamas' firing from such areas is unacceptable (which it is), so to is any Israeli military action in such areas. Both are bound to cause massive civilian casualties.


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  • #3142
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    greenflash wrote: »
    Not "human shields" in the classic sense but Hamas and other Palestinian groups deliberately draw fire into highly populated civilian areas.

    http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/ndtv-s-hamas-exclusive-is-an-international-headline-571487?fb

    The main issue with that story is that the journalists have no way of knowing which militant groups that was, and yet they claim it was Hamas. There are multiple militant groups operating in Gaza, and secondly all of Gaza is a highly populated civilian area, its one of the most densely populated places on the planet. Regardless the rocket attacks are wrong imho, but Netanyahu wanted this war, and imho the responsibility is on him.

    It should also be pointed out that Hamas never wanted this conflict, and before the current mess was actively stopping other groups from firing rockets, and they were not firing any themselves.


  • #3143
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,798 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    You cant beat a bit of Lebensraum.

    It's so taboo to mention this, but in all honesty what else can one call Israel's illegal expansion? It's literally an exact repeat of the policy.


  • #3144
    greenflash
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 499 ✭✭greenflash


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    Firstly, that is a very far cry from the image that "human shields" conjures up. I am reminded of the use of the word "teen" to refer to a 19 year old performing a sex act a few weeks ago, with the obvious intention of causing underage assumptions among casual readers.

    So now that we're accepting that "human shields" in the traditional sense are not being used, we can address the real point which is the basing of militants in populated areas: Gaza, as has been previously mentioned, is so overpopulated that it's more or less impossible to do anything without being near somebody's house. Ergo if Hamas' firing from such areas is unacceptable (which it is), so to is any Israeli military action in such areas. Both are bound to cause massive civilian casualties.



    The Gaza Strip has an extremely high density population in and around Gaza City but population density is much lower away from the city, especially in the southern half of the strip.


    http://domino.un.org/unispal.nsf/0/95caaf8cb4436686852575360063f3df?OpenDocument


    It doesn't suit Hamas to use the empty spaces available because the limited range of their rockets means the more desirable Israeli targets could not be reached and return fire into hillsides or farmland from Israel would have little PR value. For the reasons I said earlier, I think it also suits Israel to have the enemy based amongst a civilian population as it gives them more opportunity to bomb Palestinians into submission. It does not suit Israel to launch major ground operations into the high population areas in which Hamas operates, as urban guerrilla warfare in hostile territory is where Israel will suffer the greatest military casualties.


  • #3145
    VinLieger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,328 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    It's so taboo to mention this, but in all honesty what else can one call Israel's illegal expansion? It's literally an exact repeat of the policy.

    I think Israel have jumped the shark on what is and isnt taboo when their politicians start calling for concentration camps for Palestinians and exterminating those who don't comply


  • #3146
    Tuisceanch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 735 ✭✭✭Tuisceanch


    TommyKnocker wrote: »
    That Video is absolute rubbish. I would suggest watching

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etXAm-OylQQ


    It's a little longer than your 5 minute propaganda video, but vastly more informative ;)


    In this video he talks about among other things:

    • the myth of the 1947 - 1948 war;
    • the myth of the 1967 war;
    • the use of the Iran card to keep the Israeli public in a state of fear;
    • the fact that in Israel the borders of Israel are perceived to extend to the Jordan River and the border with Egypt;
    • the 3 tier legal system i.e. one for Israeli Jews,1 for Israeli-Arabs and military law for the people in the occupied territories.
    It is a valuable account because it is a personal account of someone who was obliged to wrestle with his conscious when confronted with the anomalies between with what he was brought up to think and believe and the other reality he was confronted with when living in the US.


  • #3147
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    greenflash wrote: »
    Not "human shields" in the classic sense but Hamas and other Palestinian groups deliberately draw fire into highly populated civilian areas.
    This has been done to death at this stage, so excuse me for assuming you are deliberately misrepresenting facts here.
    Gaza is one of the most densely populated regions on earth, due to a mix of poverty and Israeli land grabs. Hamas have no choice about where to put their weapons.
    greenflash wrote: »
    Problem is Israel isn't deterred by western opinion and protest, Hamas and co will not accept defeat in order to stop their civilian population being slaughtered and the one power that could put an end to this is busy making money for its politically influential arms industry. I don't see a real end to the situation unless Israel disarms and is wiped off the map or Hamas gives in and the Palestinians are obliterated.
    We don't have to guess what happens when you "accept defeat" to Israel, we have the wholly annexed and suppressed West Bank as direct evidence.
    BTW, the problem isn't so much that Israel turn a blind eye to Western criticism. The USA sends the bombs that blow up the schools, which is a bit more than a nod and a wink.


  • #3148
    Grayson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,118 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    greenflash wrote: »
    Not "human shields" in the classic sense but Hamas and other Palestinian groups deliberately draw fire into highly populated civilian areas.


    http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/ndtv-s-hamas-exclusive-is-an-international-headline-571487?fb


    It seems to me to be in both sides' interests to maximise civilian casualties. Israel are in the business of supressing an entire population, possibly in the hope that if they inflict enough death and suffering on the general population, the Islamic militants within their midst will be admit defeat. Hamas and other groups seem more than willing to sacrifice as many of their own people as is necessary to continue to win their war of propaganda and turning global opinion against Israel.


    Problem is Israel isn't deterred by western opinion and protest, Hamas and co will not accept defeat in order to stop their civilian population being slaughtered and the one power that could put an end to this is busy making money for its politically influential arms industry. I don't see a real end to the situation unless Israel disarms and is wiped off the map or Hamas gives in and the Palestinians are obliterated.

    Gaza is the most densely populated area on the planet. It's also tiny. Anywhere Hamas fires from is going to be close to population.
    And that whole "they're willing to sacrifice" their population is bull****. they don't do these thing so Israel will kill children. that's propaganda that's designed to make them look evil and absolve Israel from using artillery in densely populated areas.


  • #3149
    TommyKnocker
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,829 ✭✭✭TommyKnocker


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    This has been done to death at this stage, so excuse me for assuming you are deliberately misrepresenting facts here.
    Gaza is one of the most densely populated regions on earth, due to a mix of poverty and Israeli land grabs. Hamas have no choice about where to put their weapons.
    .

    The latest land grab by Israel to create the "Buffer Zone" between Israel and Gaza used up 44% of the area of Gaza :eek: And people go on about why Hamas rockets are fired from populated areas?

    This from the times of Israel has some photos of the results of rockets fired from Gaza into civilian areas. And while this cannot be condoned, as the targeting of civilians on either side is wrong and a war crime, it would appear the the level of destruction caused by these rockets in minimal. So the wanton destruction of Gaza, it's infrastructure and it's unarmed, non combatant civilian population over the last month was way OTT and disproportionate IMHO.


  • #3150
    Grayson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,118 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    greenflash wrote: »
    The Gaza Strip has an extremely high density population in and around Gaza City but population density is much lower away from the city, especially in the southern half of the strip.


    http://domino.un.org/unispal.nsf/0/95caaf8cb4436686852575360063f3df?OpenDocument


    It doesn't suit Hamas to use the empty spaces available because the limited range of their rockets means the more desirable Israeli targets could not be reached and return fire into hillsides or farmland from Israel would have little PR value. For the reasons I said earlier, I think it also suits Israel to have the enemy based amongst a civilian population as it gives them more opportunity to bomb Palestinians into submission. It does not suit Israel to launch major ground operations into the high population areas in which Hamas operates, as urban guerrilla warfare in hostile territory is where Israel will suffer the greatest military casualties.


    In that link the lowest population density is 2738 ppl per km2.

    To put that in perspective here's the figures for ireland
    http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/census/documents/census2011vol1andprofile1/Profile1_Town_and_Country_Entire_doc.pdf
    1,311 is the average number of persons per square kilometre in Cork, Limerick, Galway and Waterford cities and their suburbs combined

    The average population density in urban areas was 1,736 persons per km2 compared to 26 persons per km2 in rural areas

    So Hamas are in the sparsely populated area that has twice the population density of cork. Cork must be a wilderness then.


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  • #3151
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,798 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    greenflash wrote: »
    The Gaza Strip has an extremely high density population in and around Gaza City but population density is much lower away from the city, especially in the southern half of the strip.


    http://domino.un.org/unispal.nsf/0/95caaf8cb4436686852575360063f3df?OpenDocument


    It doesn't suit Hamas to use the empty spaces available because the limited range of their rockets means the more desirable Israeli targets could not be reached and return fire into hillsides or farmland from Israel would have little PR value. For the reasons I said earlier, I think it also suits Israel to have the enemy based amongst a civilian population as it gives them more opportunity to bomb Palestinians into submission. It does not suit Israel to launch major ground operations into the high population areas in which Hamas operates, as urban guerrilla warfare in hostile territory is where Israel will suffer the greatest military casualties.

    Apologies, I should have specified that I was referring to Gaza City as opposed to the entire Strip.
    Point is, as I mentioned, Hamas' firing of rockets from such areas is completely unacceptable, but so is any Israeli aerial military operation. Both are bound to cause civilian casualties and both in my view amount to mass murder.


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