Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - Mod Note in OP, 13/8

Blatter wrote: »

I read something about it before and the consensus was that the club technically could be stung for tax on the buyout but it has never happened before to other clubs.

The piece I read was referring to the Martinez to Bayern transfer. I'll try to find it later.

Also my understanding of the situation, hence the 3 amigos last summer.

Pro. F wrote: »

At Juve plenty of times Pogba stays forward when the team are defending and so plays more like a 10 than a CM. Vidal has often had plenty of defensive covering to do in that Juve midfield even when beside Pirlo. He has always been excellent at it.

I've also seen him playing as CM with full defensive responsibilities for Chile.

If you watch any amount of Vidal you can't have any doubts that he is excellent defensively. The only possible doubt about him defensively for us (other than his knee) would be that he has always been so good and worked so incredibly hard, that maybe he's been juicing and we won't get the same work rate from him.

You can swing that the other way and say plenty of times Vidal has stayed forward and Pogba has played deeper.

Also for the past year and a half Chile haven't played without 3 men in midfield and a lot of the time it was with two defensive midfielders with Vidal in front of them.

I am not disagreeing that Vidals defensive contribution hasn't been very good but I'm not so sure him and Ander will be paired in midfield because neither fit the disciplined holding role that LVG always uses.

Again we haven't even signed Vidal so this is meaningless at the moment but if we did I would be shocked if Carrick wasn't still a first choice midfielder when he's fit.

Pro. F wrote: »

Vidal stays forward far less often than Pogba, and even if they had both done an equal share of staying forward it wouldn't matter. When Vidal is defending in the Juve midfield he is excellent.

He has been playing for Chile for a lot longer than a year and a half. It was the Copa America in 2011 that I was talking about watching him play CM.

Vidal definitely has the discipline and ability to be the defensive player beside a more attacking player like Hererra.

So you are going to spend 50 million on arguably the best box to box midfielder in the world and turn him into a disciplined number 6?

Van Gaal has said it, his philosophy for the most part is always the same, the midfield there's a 6, an 8 and a 10

The 6 is always a disciplined holding midfielder, De Jong, Van Bommel, Schaar, Xavi, Cocu Guardiola, Davids going back through the teams to his Ajax days.


Also Vidal has scored 32 goals over the past two seasons surely he should be the attacking player if any.

~Rebel~ wrote: »

Is it a bit of a waste of the players abilities to ask him to play that disciplined role though? Just feels like it would be a shame, and kind of a waste of money...if it's a disciplined holding player you want, why not just spend a fraction of his cost on his international teammate Gary Medel? He actually specializes in that role so Vidal isn't shackled.

I wouldn't agree with Rayne's thinking that it has to be a pure holding player in there. Two all-round CMs with one of them a bit more defensively reliable than the other could be perfect imo.

Medal is a good call for a pure DCM. I rate him as a decent player. Judging from his Spanish days, I'd always thought he would go mental in the PL and just pick up too many bookings, but in the end he became very disciplined when he arrived.

Although, when I was watching him last season, one doubt I had about him was whether he had lost a bit of pace. He seemed to get run past a bit too much. But that might purely have been because Cardiff were a shambles and he wasn't getting enough support.

Pro. F wrote: »

I wouldn't agree with Rayne's thinking that it has to be a pure holding player in there. Two all-round CMs with one of them a bit more defensively reliable than the other could be perfect imo.

Medal is a good call for a pure DCM. I rate him as a decent player. Judging from his Spanish days, I'd always thought he would go mental in the PL and just pick up too many bookings, but in the end he became very disciplined when he arrived.

Although, when I was watching him last season, one doubt I had about him was whether he had lost a bit of pace. He seemed to get run past a bit too much. But that might purely have been because Cardiff were a shambles and he wasn't getting enough support.

He wasn't getting enough salad. He never looked fit for Cardiff. A physical specimen he was not.

Pro. F wrote: »

I didn't see LVG saying that he always plays a holding midfielder. I understood a 6 and an 8 to mean two central midfielders without any indication of what their jobs were necessarily.

Van Bommel, Xavi and Guardiola were non of them any more disciplined holding midfielders than Vidal is. Also, in the qualifying for the last WC, when Strootman was fit, LVG played him alongside Clasie or de Guzman for the majority of the games. So that's a good example of him playing without a pure holding DCM.

There are interviews of him explaining this that were posted in here before iirc. 6 is the disciplined, "brain" of the midfield, the 8 is the ball circulator normally box to box and the 10 is the creative player or the second striker depending on the players he has.

He has used Strooman in both 6 and 8 and I'm sure someone who watches Holland play consistently could see the difference between the roles. Strootman is more box to box for Roma though.

You are making two points here, one we've paid so much for Herrera so he must start which I don't think is true. The second that you think that a box to box and attack minded midfielder can work together in midfield pairing, that could well be true but the only time it has worked that I can think of off the top of my head is Keane and Scholes but that was dependent of the quality of the two and Ander is a long way off being Scholes.

We may not even sign Vidal, but if we do I think going by the trend Carrick would be his partner when fit, I suppose time will tell.

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

There are interviews of him explaining this that were posted in here before iirc. 6 is the disciplined, "brain" of the midfield, the 8 is the ball circulator normally box to box and the 10 is the creative player or the second striker depending on the players he has.

He has used Strooman in both 6 and 8 and I'm sure someone who watches Holland play consistently could see the difference between the roles. Strootman is more box to box for Roma though.

You are making two points here, one we've paid so much for Herrera so he must start which I don't think is true. The second that you think that a box to box and attack minded midfielder can work together in midfield pairing, that could well be true but the only time it has worked that I can think of off the top of my head is Keane and Scholes but that was dependent of the quality of the two and Ander is a long way off being Scholes.

We may not even sign Vidal, but if we do I think going by the trend Carrick would be his partner when fit, I suppose time will tell.

"More disciplined" doesn't necessarily mean that the player is a pure holding DCM. Hererra less defensively disciplined, Vidal more. That's a fine balance and both playing roles that they're perfectly suited too. Unless it turns out that Hererra is a total liability defensively, which he better not be, considering the money we paid for him.

As for successful central midfields without a pure DCM, Bayern with Schweinsteiger and Kroos and Dortmund with Gundogan and Bender, are two I can think of straight off.

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

You can swing that the other way and say plenty of times Vidal has stayed forward and Pogba has played deeper.

Pro. F wrote: »

Vidal stays forward far less often than Pogba, and even if they had both done an equal share of staying forward it wouldn't matter. When Vidal is defending in the Juve midfield he is excellent.

Juve fan here.

Vidal is definitely the one who gets forward more than Pogba. Pogba does more defending than him. It would be a waste of Vidal's talents to have him as the holding, "disciplined" one in a midfield. He has nearly a goal every three games for Juve after all. At the World Cup for Chile he was playing as a number 10, almost as a false 9 at times. This might have been partly because he wasn't fully fit so wouldn't have been able to get forward from midfield, but still.

Having said that, he is capable of playing deeper. He's capable of playing almost any outfield position really I'd say. He has played CB for Juve no problem. He's at his best when he's the one getting forward from midfield though.

Pinturicchio wrote: »

Juve fan here.

Vidal is definitely the one who gets forward more than Pogba. Pogba does more defending than him. It would be a waste of Vidal's talents to have him as the holding, "disciplined" one in a midfield. He has nearly a goal every three games for Juve after all. At the World Cup for Chile he was playing as a number 10, almost as a false 9 at times. This might have been partly because he wasn't fully fit so wouldn't have been able to get forward from midfield, but still.

Having said that, he is capable of playing deeper. He's capable of playing almost any outfield position really I'd say. He has played CB for Juve no problem. He's at his best when he's the one getting forward from midfield though.

Good insight, do you think he will leave?

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Good insight, do you think he will leave?

I don't think he'll leave this summer.

Pro. F wrote: »

"More disciplined" doesn't necessarily mean that the player is a pure holding DCM. Hererra less defensively disciplined, Vidal more. That's a fine balance and both playing roles that they're perfectly suited too. Unless it turns out that Hererra is a total liability defensively, which he better not be, considering the money we paid for him.

As for successful central midfields without a pure DCM, Bayern with Schweinsteiger and Kroos and Dortmund with Gundogan and Bender, are two I can think of straight off.

I'd definitely consider Bender a holding midfielder to be fair, although I think two box to box midfielders with Mata in front of them could work. While playing 3 at the back I don't think another player shielding them is necessary.

Pro. F wrote: »

Any game I've seen of Juve over the last two seasons (which was plenty last season) Pogba has been switching off defensively at times and Vidal hasn't. I'm not saying that Vidal has played as a holding midfielder, nor that he doesn't get forward a lot. I'm saying he does a lot of defensive work too (I'd say he does more than Pogba) and that he does it very well.

I would agree with you that Pogba can switch off defensively at times (excusable for a 20 year old). Vidal is better at both defending and attacking than Pogba.

Deiseboy01 wrote: »

Ive a question, playing devil's advocate here, are there any posters who do not favour a move for Vidal?

Usually when I see an overwhelming concensus I run the other way! Vidal has been nearly universally lauded, is he that good? Juve have been dominant but how good is the competition? Does having thelikes of Pirlo in the team alongside him allow to look better than he is?

Finally any injury worries surely has to be a major concern given the huge fee and past experience with the likes of Hargreaves.

The knee is a big concern, as it is with Strootman...