Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - Mod Note in OP, 13/8

Pro. F · 05-08-2014 08:51PM

Larry Wildman wrote: »

Yeah, maybe. I'll be crucified for saying it, but I'm not convinced by Januzaj. He's a good prospect in my view, but nothing more at this stage. Way too much hype for a couple of goals and a couple of (admittedly) good performances. I'd be wary of relying on him to be our backup at 10.

That's not to say that he won't "make it", but on the "spectrum of seemingly great talent, where Ryan Giggs is at one end and Frederico Macheda is at the other, I'd have Januzaj just past the middle (towards Giggsy).

Yeah, that's fair enough. The justification for selling Kagawa only works if you rate Januzaj highly enough. I think there are a good few posters on here who think the same as you about Januzaj's potential, so you won't get slated for stating that opinion.

ShoulderChip · 05-08-2014 08:57PM

Pro. F wrote: »

Yeah, that's fair enough. The justification for selling Kagawa only works if you rate Januzaj highly enough. I think there are a good few posters on here who think the same as you about Januzaj's potential, so you won't get slated for stating that opinion.

Its a very hard position to judge as well, look at de bruyne I am still not sure if I am happy or not that he was sold, is Salah better or as good, its hard to tell.

Will Januzaj up his game and become a Robben like figure able to adapt when defenders learn his traits, will he have a few flashes and become Shawn Wright Phillips or Adam Johnson, or will he stay steady but never having a season long impressive impact like Walcott - I don't know, nor do I know for Schurrle for example.

TheTownie · 05-08-2014 08:59PM

.

danlevy1 ‏@danlevy1 2m
Allegri: "Vidal & Pogba are both Juventus players. They are very happy to stay at Juventus and I am very happy to coach them."

The Moldy Gowl · 05-08-2014 09:00PM

ShoulderChip wrote: »

Hi sorry to burst your bubble but Vidal is now 3.5 to one to join United.
He was less than evens.
If you believe these rumours then go bet, if you don't the market has a lot less confidence in it happening so its looking less likely.

How many times do we have to tell people.

Bookies odds mean fook all.

Vidal is not gonna look and say oh goodness me, pp have me joining united.
It must be true

Whatsisname · 05-08-2014 09:01PM

TheTownie wrote: »

.

Not so happy here today watching training

05-08-2014 09:02PM

Kagawa and Hernandez looked very good together the other day, would be a lethal partnership for Madrid and they were my favourite Spanish team until last season, didn't really like Costa but with Shinji and Hernandez there I'd probably be buying my 2nd Atletico and 2nd Kagawa shirt before long.

TheTownie · 05-08-2014 09:02PM

ShoulderChip wrote: »

Its a very hard position to judge as well, look at de bruyne I am still not sure if I am happy or not that he was sold, is Salah better or as good, its hard to tell.

Will Januzaj up his game and become a Robben like figure able to adapt when defenders learn his traits, will he have a few flashes and become Shawn Wright Phillips or Adam Johnson, or will he stay steady but never having a season long impressive impact like Walcott - I don't know, nor do I know for Schurrle for example.

Well Januzaj is like none of those players. Hes a number 10 who was mostly playing out wide for Utd because thats where they could afford to play him and where he could adapt to the playing in the PL. He will move into the centre eventually, be it at Utd or elsewhere.

ShoulderChip · 05-08-2014 09:03PM

Gowlasauras Rex wrote: »

How many times do we have to tell people.

Bookies odds mean fook all.

Vidal is not gonna look and say oh goodness me, pp have me joining united.
It must be true

I agree that anyone who thinks the odds have a bearing on someone's decision to sign is an idiot.

bantee · 05-08-2014 09:04PM

Just watching last nights match now from start to finish, Rooney's goal was class. Herrera having a poor game, fouled a lot and gave away 2 sloppy balls early in the 2nd half that should've resulted in goals. Overall, it's positive though!

KombuchaMshroom · 05-08-2014 09:26PM

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

I can't see that midfield working, if we sign Vidal it will probably be Carrick and Vidal with Mata ahead and Ander being used as a squad player

Ah will you shtop.

Probably no point discussing it yet as Vidal is still a long way off I imagine, but if he does come in there is no way Carrick could be first choice ahead of Herrara surely. They are both better in attack and defence than Carrick, he offers literally nothing that they can't do.

All that would be needed for that partnership to work is a simple understanding that if one of them does go a bit further forward the other stays disciplined and drops further back to protect just in case

steoin · 05-08-2014 09:37PM

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

I can't see that midfield working, if we sign Vidal it will probably be Carrick and Vidal with Mata ahead and Ander being used as a squad player

What?

DM_7 · 05-08-2014 09:39PM

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

I can't see that midfield working, if we sign Vidal it will probably be Carrick and Vidal with Mata ahead and Ander being used as a squad player

I think you would be wrong

(Not that I think Vidal would be signed)

irishfeen · 05-08-2014 09:42PM

J. Marston wrote: »

Does the United thread have a fantasy football league? Does anyone have the code to join?

There is a free league and a €10 pay league - first post in this thread for details lad.

Rayne Wooney · 05-08-2014 09:42PM

KombuchaMshroom wrote: »

protect just in case

Incredibly oversimplifying summed up by this line.

DM-ICE wrote: »

I think you would be wrong

(Not that I think Vidal would be signed)

Based on...

Whatsisname · 05-08-2014 09:53PM

Anyone see Ogden's latest article?

The ex Swansea boss has told the ex Ajax, Barcelona, Bayern Munich and Netherlands boss that the Premier League is tough. I think he'll cope, Brendan.

DM_7 · 05-08-2014 09:55PM

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Based on

Based on Herrera being better and younger than Carrick.

Not that I want to get in an argument, earlier in the week you were talking about Herrera being bought to be converted to a central midfield player so I don't see the discussion going anywhere.

Headshot · 05-08-2014 10:02PM

Whatsisname wrote: »

Anyone see Ogden's latest article?

The ex Swansea boss has told the ex Ajax, Barcelona, Bayern Munich and Netherlands boss that the Premier League is tough. I think he'll cope, Brendan.

Hopefully we ****ing destroy them. And then I will drink from a cup of Brendans tears

Pro. F · 05-08-2014 10:05PM

Carrick is definitely better at defending than Hererra, but Vidal is very good defensively too so I don't see why he wouldn't work perfectly with Hererra.

Since Hererra cost £28m plus income tax and VAT (getting on towards £50m total if I'm right about the rates) there's no chance of him not being first choice. That would be unacceptable.

KombuchaMshroom · 05-08-2014 10:05PM

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Incredibly oversimplifying summed up by this line.

I could simplify it even more by saying that Herrara and Vidal are both much better midfielders than Carrick therefore they would both start ahead of them.

Carrick offers nothing that those 2 can't offer themselves.

05-08-2014 10:15PM

Pro. F wrote: »

Carrick is definitely better at defending than Hererra, but Vidal is very good defensively too so I don't see why he wouldn't work perfectly with Hererra.

Since Hererra cost £28m plus income tax and VAT (getting on towards £50m total if I'm right about the rates) there's no chance of him not being first choice. That would be unacceptable.

That price surely can't be correct?

Rayne Wooney · 05-08-2014 10:15PM

DM-ICE wrote: »

Based on Herrera being better and younger than Carrick.

Not that I want to get in an argument, earlier in the week you were talking about Herrera being bought to be converted to a central midfield player so I don't see the discussion going anywhere.

So Van Gaal is going to completely abandon his norm for the past 20 years on your say so and your reasoning is you think Ander is better and younger than Carrick?

I will be shocked if Carrick isn't first choice for all of the big games this season

Pro. F wrote: »

Carrick is definitely better at defending than Hererra, but Vidal is very good defensively too so I don't see why he wouldn't work perfectly with Hererra.

Since Hererra cost £28m plus income tax and VAT (getting on towards £50m total if I'm right about the rates) there's no chance of him not being first choice. That would be unacceptable.

Have you ever seen Vidal outside of a midfield 3? at Leverkusen he had holding midfielders like Rolfes and Bender, Ballack played there as well didn't he. With Pogba and Pirlo at Juve

You are saying Vidal is very good defensively but leaving out the context of the midfield he played in, now we are talking about a two man midfield with an attack minded box to box midfielder and a player who has looked very much like an attacking midfielder

Adamcp898 · 05-08-2014 10:23PM

Whatsisname wrote: »

Anyone see Ogden's latest article?

The ex Swansea boss has told the ex Ajax, Barcelona, Bayern Munich and Netherlands boss that the Premier League is tough. I think he'll cope, Brendan.

''Ah yesh Brendan, and you will find the Champion's League to also be ecsthremely competitive. Would you like to shee my winner's medal?''

Vic Vinegar · 05-08-2014 10:23PM

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

So Van Gaal is going to completely abandon his norm for the past 20 years on your say so and your reasoning is you think Ander is better and younger than Carrick?

I will be shocked if Carrick isn't first choice for all of the big games this season

Have you ever seen Vidal outside of a midfield 3? at Leverkusen he had holding midfielders like Rolfes and Bender, Ballack played there as well didn't he. With Pogba and Pirlo at Juve

You are saying Vidal is very good defensively but leaving out the context of the midfield he played in, now we are talking about a two man midfield with an attack minded box to box midfielder and a player who has looked very much like an attacking midfielder

Vidal is excellent defensively

Check out this page http://www.whoscored.com/Players/25008/Show/Arturo-Vidal

Ander is too - http://www.whoscored.com/Players/71174/

Rayne Wooney · 05-08-2014 10:32PM

Bombleswizzum wrote: »

Vidal is excellent defensively

Check out this page http://www.whoscored.com/Players/25008/Show/Arturo-Vidal

Ander is too - http://www.whoscored.com/Players/71174/

That website has many bizarre ratings

Also probably should never base an opinion on stats alone, look at Valencia's and you'd think he did well last season

You missed the point anyway in the post you quoted, there is a difference between being good defensively in a midfield 3 in Italy to a two man midfield in the premier league

Donnielighto · 05-08-2014 10:37PM

ShoulderChip wrote: »

Please educate me!
I am fully aware that they often underprice the odds to make a frenzy or a false appearance of something happening, the fact that the highest available odds have lengthened so much is certainly indicative of information in the market to the contrary of him signing.

If you were to follow the tone of this thread where people are starting to believe that it is likely then the given odds are very generous that is my point.
I am not saying it is not going to happen I am just saying that there is value in the market currently if you are of the belief that it is likely to occur.

Your name is shockingly appropriate.

Pro. F · 05-08-2014 10:46PM

Liam O wrote: »

That price surely can't be correct?

I could well be wrong about any or all of this, so I'm open to correction.

From what I remember from the Hererra story last summer there was an article (or maybe more than one) going around that said that players activating their buyout clauses have to pay income tax and VAT. The player has to buy out his own contract when activating the clause, so the buying club has to send him the money to do it. But then the player becomes liable for the taxes and the buying club obviously need to pay them too. Top rate of income tax in Spain is 52%. VAT is 21%.

It could be capital gains tax instead of income tax, which would only be 27% instead of 52%. Actually yeah, capital gains would sound like a better description of the transaction than income. So in that case it would be €36m + €9.72m capital gains + €7.56m VAT = €53.28m = £42.21m

edit: tax rates li nk

Blatter · 05-08-2014 11:00PM

Pro. F wrote: »

I could well be wrong about any or all of this, so I'm open to correction.

From what I remember from the Hererra story last summer there was an article (or maybe more than one) going around that said that players activating their buyout clauses have to pay income tax and VAT. The player has to buy out his own contract when activating the clause, so the buying club has to send him the money to do it. But then the player becomes liable for the taxes and the buying club obviously need to pay them too. Top rate of income tax in Spain is 52%. VAT is 21%.

It could be capital gains tax instead of income tax, which would only be 27% instead of 52%. Actually yeah, capital gains would sound like a better description of the transaction than income. So in that case it would be €36m + €9.72m capital gains + €7.56m VAT = €53.28m = £42.21m

edit: tax rates li nk

I read something about it before and the consensus was that the club technically could be stung for tax on the buyout but it has never happened before to other clubs.

The piece I read was referring to the Martinez to Bayern transfer. I'll try to find it later.

Pro. F · 05-08-2014 11:03PM

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Have you ever seen Vidal outside of a midfield 3? at Leverkusen he had holding midfielders like Rolfes and Bender, Ballack played there as well didn't he. With Pogba and Pirlo at Juve

You are saying Vidal is very good defensively but leaving out the context of the midfield he played in, now we are talking about a two man midfield with an attack minded box to box midfielder and a player who has looked very much like an attacking midfielder

At Juve plenty of times Pogba stays forward when the team are defending and so plays more like a 10 than a CM. Vidal has often had plenty of defensive covering to do in that Juve midfield even when beside Pirlo. He has always been excellent at it.

I've also seen him playing as CM with full defensive responsibilities for Chile.

If you watch any amount of Vidal you can't have any doubts that he is excellent defensively. The only possible doubt about him defensively for us (other than his knee) would be that he has always been so good and worked so incredibly hard, that maybe he's been juicing and we won't get the same work rate from him.

Pro. F · 05-08-2014 11:09PM

Bombleswizzum wrote: »

Vidal is excellent defensively

Check out this page http://www.whoscored.com/Players/25008/Show/Arturo-Vidal

Ander is too - http://www.whoscored.com/Players/71174/

Tackles and interceptions aren't a good indicator for defensive ability imo. They'll show how good a player's work rate and bravery to tackle are, but that's no indication of how well the player does tracking runs and covering.

Ander is not that good defensively. He'll work hard and get stuck in, but he'll also forget to follow runners into the box or get himself pulled out of position to cover when his team mates are closing the man on the ball.

TheTownie · 05-08-2014 11:10PM

Pro. F wrote: »

I could well be wrong about any or all of this, so I'm open to correction.

From what I remember from the Hererra story last summer there was an article (or maybe more than one) going around that said that players activating their buyout clauses have to pay income tax and VAT. The player has to buy out his own contract when activating the clause, so the buying club has to send him the money to do it. But then the player becomes liable for the taxes and the buying club obviously need to pay them too. Top rate of income tax in Spain is 52%. VAT is 21%.

It could be capital gains tax instead of income tax, which would only be 27% instead of 52%. Actually yeah, capital gains would sound like a better description of the transaction than income. So in that case it would be €36m + €9.72m capital gains + €7.56m VAT = €53.28m = £42.21m

edit: tax rates li nk

An article in IBT broke down the deal and described what most likely happened.

Heres an extract.

However, there are two key points for United to worry about - and here's where it gets complicated.

Furthermore, Athletic can still ask the Spanish Revenue authorities to study the case – and they could force United to pay an extra charge in terms of personal income tax (PIT) in an attempt to scupper the bid. The club's trenchant stance has brought problems before; in the summer of 2012, for example, Bayern Munich's signing of Javi Martinez was delayed for two months due to complications over tax liabilities.

Secondly, Real Zaragoza - Herrera's former side, who nurtured him through the youth ranks - are demanding €1.4m from the sale. Had Athletic accepted United's 'friendly' bid the Spanish side would have to pay that amount. However, by meeting the buyout clause, United have made what amounts to a hostile offer, and are thus obliged to pay the Zaragoza fee.

IBTimes UK has spoken to lawyers in Spain, who tell us that United can avoid the extra payment to the Spanish revenue should they complete the move before the end of the month. However, in that case Herrera would have to live at least half the year in England and have to declare his earnings to the English authorities, rather than the Spanish.

United are almost certain to have to pay the money demanded by Zaragoza, meaning the eventual deal will cost €37.4m. However we understand that Herrera is likely to reduce his salary to mitigate this extra cost.

One thing's for sure, Bilbao have once again proved themselves among the toughest negotiators in football.

They forced Bayern to pay €40m for Martinez in 2012 following the tax wrangle, while they refused to allow Juventus to agree a cut-priced deal for Fernando Llorente, forcing the striker to run down his contract to secure a move to Turin.

Now the Basques are repeating the same formula with the negotiations over Herrera's move to Old Trafford and United will have to tread very carefully indeed.

Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - Mod Note in OP, 13/8

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