Israel - Palestine Conflict. Mod note in OP - updated 1st August

hatrickpatrick · 05-08-2014 05:26PM

fedor.2. wrote: »

No, and I can't imagine what that's like. Is there a realistic and achievable alternative?

Some seem to be suggesting that "peace" as in the absence of violence is the ultimate goal. Personally I wouldn't believe in calling any final result which does not include an Israeli withdrawal to its legitimate borders as defined by the UN and the return of stolen lands to their Palestinian owners as an acceptable situation.

fedor.2. · 05-08-2014 05:27PM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Some seem to be suggesting that "peace" as in the absence of violence is the ultimate goal. Personally I wouldn't believe in calling any final result which does not include an Israeli withdrawal to its legitimate borders as defined by the UN and the return of stolen lands to their Palestinian owners as an acceptable situation.

That's unlikely to happen though, isn't it.

wes · 05-08-2014 05:27PM

fedor.2. wrote: »

No, and I can't imagine what that's like. Is there a realistic and achievable alternative?

Yes, Zionists end the greater Israel nonsense, and this whole thing can be solved very quickly. There was a unity government that the Israeli government could have negotiated with, if they didn't blow Gaza to bits.

fedor.2. · 05-08-2014 05:29PM

Peist2007 wrote: »

I wasnt. I hate you and your type with a passion.

That's the problem though, isn't it. I have done nothing to you, I've never met you. Yet, you hate me and the idea of me.

end of the road · 05-08-2014 05:30PM

fedor.2. wrote: »

Warsi was on the way out anyway

no, i'm afraid she wasn't

hatrickpatrick · 05-08-2014 05:30PM

fedor.2. wrote: »

That's unlikely to happen though, isn't it.

If Israel succeeds in pummelling the Palestinians into submission as destroying all of the terrorist groups, it could happen, but it would be a forced peace and not a real peace. The Americans seem willing to accept this, I'm simply suggesting that "peace" is a tricky word. It's a little like the word "stability" with regard to the economy - an economy can be described as "stable" even if everyone in it is homeless, as "stability" simply means the absence of rapid change.

wes · 05-08-2014 05:31PM

fedor.2. wrote: »

That's unlikely to happen though, isn't it.

I am sure supporters of Apartheid felt the same way, right before the whole thing came crashing down.

end of the road · 05-08-2014 05:33PM

fedor.2. wrote: »

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danhodges/100282457/baroness-warsis-resignation-has-more-to-do-with-the-reshuffle-than-it-does-with-gaza/

yeah, an opinion piece

fedor.2. · 05-08-2014 05:33PM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

If Israel succeeds in pummelling the Palestinians into submission as destroying all of the terrorist groups, it could happen, but it would be a forced peace and not a real peace. The Americans seem willing to accept this, I'm simply suggesting that "peace" is a tricky word. It's a little like the word "stability" with regard to the economy - an economy can be described as "stable" even if everyone in it is homeless, as "stability" simply means the absence of rapid change.

Surely anything is better than what's being happening for the last few weeks. Even a forced peace could be tolerated if it paves a way for further negotiations

fedor.2. · 05-08-2014 05:34PM

end of the road wrote: »

yeah, an opinion piece

Yeah, we covered that an hour ago. I got it.

Peist2007 · 05-08-2014 05:34PM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Some seem to be suggesting that "peace" as in the absence of violence is the ultimate goal. Personally I wouldn't believe in calling any final result which does not include an Israeli withdrawal to its legitimate borders as defined by the UN and the return of stolen lands to their Palestinian owners as an acceptable situation.

Exactly. And we all know there is fk all chance of that happening the way the world is set up.

The Israeli's are going to be wiped out inside the next 200 years in my opinion. We are watching the dying hedonistic American empire making similarly arrogant decisions that all dying empires have done through the ages; their time is almost up. I doubt the Chinese will care too much for Israel when push comes to shove. Israel will be left to be pulled apart by the indigenous peoples around them. It wont be pretty. And it will be entirely their own fault.

fedor.2. · 05-08-2014 05:35PM

Peist2007 wrote: »

Exactly. And we all know there is fk all chance of that happening the way the world is set up.

The Israeli's are going to be wiped out inside the next 200 years in my opinion. We are watching the dying hedonistic American empire making similarly arrogant decisions that all dying empires have done through the ages; their time is almost up. I doubt the Chinese will care too much for Israel when push comes to shove. Israel will be left to be pulled apart by the indigenous peoples around them. It wont be pretty. And it will be entirely their own fault.

Ok, that confirms it, you're insane

wes · 05-08-2014 05:36PM

fedor.2. wrote: »

Surely anything is better than what's being happening for the last few weeks. Even a forced peace could be tolerated if it paves a way for further negotiations

The siege that the Gazans are under, is just as bad. It needs to end. Slow motion death can be argued to be much worse than what is happening now. It is the deliberate policy of the Israeli government to keep Gaza on the brink of disaster.

What the Israeli government is doing to Palestinians is simply genocide, similar to what the US government did to the Native Americans. Slow deliberate acts of mass murder, and driving the Natives into smaller and smaller pieces of land, and then blame the victim when they retaliate.

hatrickpatrick · 05-08-2014 05:37PM

A good example of my issue with "peace" as the ultimate ideal here is found at the end of Matrix Revolutions, wherein (spoilers) Neo demands "peace" from the machines in exchange for his help in stopping Agent Smith. The film ends with the humans and the machines living without violence, but with the continuing dominance of the Machines over the Earth and the continued existence of the Matrix. To apply that here, "peace" could easily be taken to mean a lack of violence between the two sides while Israel continues to rule the West Bank and East Jerusalem, which is not in any way an acceptable end to this saga.

fedor.2. · 05-08-2014 05:38PM

wes wrote: »

The siege that the Gazans were under, is just as bad. It needs to end. What the Israeli government is doing to Palestinians is simply genocide, similar to what the US government did to the Native Americans. Slow deliberate acts of mass murder, and driving the Natives into smaller and smaller piece of land, and then blame the victim when they retaliate.

So, there isn't really any realistically achievable solution that would please both sides

hatrickpatrick · 05-08-2014 05:39PM

fedor.2. wrote: »

Surely anything is better than what's being happening for the last few weeks. Even a forced peace could be tolerated if it paves a way for further negotiations

Sure, if as you say it paves the way for future negotiations. I'm simply saying that if that was the final status, I personally would regard it as an incredibly undesirable outcome - peace while the Palestinians continue to be oppressed.

Peist2007 · 05-08-2014 05:39PM

fedor.2. wrote: »

That's the problem though, isn't it. I have done nothing to you, I've never met you. Yet, you hate me and the idea of me.

People who apologise for the abhorrent slaughter of fellow human beings with whataboutery, strawmen arguments and blatant disingenuousness? Yes, hate is the only applicable word. I hope you all die screaming to be honest.

wes · 05-08-2014 05:40PM

fedor.2. wrote: »

So, there isn't really any realistically achievable solution that would please both sides

Sometimes it doesn't matter if both sides get everything that they want. Either a 2 state solution of a single state solution would result in peace.

The current situation should not be allowed to continue.

Peist2007 · 05-08-2014 05:42PM

fedor.2. wrote: »

Ok, that confirms it, you're insane

We'll see amigo. You think the US will be pulling the stunts they are now in 20 years? No chance. Once they lose their power and the financial and military might shifts east, Israel are the most fked nation on planet earth. My 200 year guess is a little on the conservative side.

fedor.2. · 05-08-2014 05:47PM

Peist2007 wrote: »

People who apologise for the abhorrent slaughter of fellow human beings with whataboutery, strawmen arguments and blatant disingenuousness? Yes, hate is the only applicable word. I hope you all die screaming to be honest.

First time I've laughed reading this thread, nice one

Tail Docker · 05-08-2014 05:49PM

fedor.2. wrote: »

First time I've laughed reading this thread, nice one

I'm not mad about you either, just saying like.

eeepaulo · 05-08-2014 05:54PM

fedor.2. wrote: »

So, there isn't really any realistically achievable solution that would please both sides

Sometimes it doesn't matter if both sides get everything that they want. Either a 2 state solution of a single state solution would result in peace.

The current situation should not be allowed to continue.

I agree

It is about give and take,

It is about concession

It is not acceptable to say we will bomb them into oblivion if we do not achieve everything we are entitled to

Peist2007 · 05-08-2014 05:57PM

fedor.2. wrote: »

First time I've laughed reading this thread, nice one

I very much doubt that you did. Any more false statements to make?

hatrickpatrick · 05-08-2014 05:59PM

There's really no need for pro-Palestinian posters to resort to personal sniping. We have the moral high ground as it is.

fedor.2. · 05-08-2014 06:00PM

Peist2007 wrote: »

I very much doubt that you did. Any more false statements to make?

Oh,I did. Shouldn't you be off planning for your role in toppling the great satan.

WakeUp · 05-08-2014 06:00PM

Israels Carte Blanch for War Crimes in Gaza:

The latest disgraceful Israeli attack at a United Nations school sheltering displaced Palestinians is one more indication of Israel’s lack of moral compunction in the killing of innocent civilians, particularly children. At least six UN schools and shelters have been attacked, and more than 140 Palestinian schools have been struck in a campaign to terrorize the people of Gaza.

The many Israeli wars against the Palestinians and their aftermath in recent years have demonstrated Israel’s ease in destroying homes and olive groves, but the increased killing of children raises serious questions about the absence of any moral compass among Israeli leaders, both civilian and military leaders. It is long past time to address Israel’s mindset.

In comparing the Israelis and the Palestinians recently, Prime Minister Netanyahu pointed to a “deep and wide moral abyss” that separates the two sides. According to the Israeli leader, “they sanctify death while we sanctify life. They sanctify cruelty while we sanctify compassion.” He should try explaining these remarks to the hundreds of Palestinian parents who have lost their children to Israeli rockets and artillery.
http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/08/05/israels-carte-blanche-for-war-crimes-in-gaza/

fedor.2. · 05-08-2014 06:04PM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

There's really no need for pro-Palestinian posters to resort to personal sniping. We have the moral high ground as it is.

You shouldn't really be pro any side, if you hope for a solution. America has a role, albeit a minor one, in all this, so hopefully they can help bring the two sides together and find a solution. Sometimes, I forget how lucky we are to have America on our side and available to help in these matters

Peist2007 · 05-08-2014 06:06PM

fedor.2. wrote: »

You shouldn't really be pro any side, if you hope for a solution. America has a role, albeit a minor one, in all this, so hopefully they can help bring the two sides together and find a solution. Sometimes, I forget how lucky we are to have America on our side and available to help in these matters

All the killing must be done now that the shills are talking about "progress" and "solutions". Sickening.

VinLieger · 05-08-2014 06:07PM

fedor.2. wrote: »

You shouldn't really be pro any side, if you hope for a solution. America has a role, albeit a minor one, in all this, so hopefully they can help bring the two sides together and find a solution. Sometimes, I forget how lucky we are to have America on our side and available to help in these matters

Buh? So if children are being wantonly slaughtered we shouldn't be against it?

Peist2007 · 05-08-2014 06:08PM

WakeUp wrote: »

Israels Carte Blanch for War Crimes in Gaza:

The latest disgraceful Israeli attack at a United Nations school sheltering displaced Palestinians is one more indication of Israel’s lack of moral compunction in the killing of innocent civilians, particularly children. At least six UN schools and shelters have been attacked, and more than 140 Palestinian schools have been struck in a campaign to terrorize the people of Gaza.

The many Israeli wars against the Palestinians and their aftermath in recent years have demonstrated Israel’s ease in destroying homes and olive groves, but the increased killing of children raises serious questions about the absence of any moral compass among Israeli leaders, both civilian and military leaders. It is long past time to address Israel’s mindset.

In comparing the Israelis and the Palestinians recently, Prime Minister Netanyahu pointed to a “deep and wide moral abyss” that separates the two sides. According to the Israeli leader, “they sanctify death while we sanctify life. They sanctify cruelty while we sanctify compassion.” He should try explaining these remarks to the hundreds of Palestinian parents who have lost their children to Israeli rockets and artillery.
http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/08/05/israels-carte-blanche-for-war-crimes-in-gaza/

You actually couldnt make it up could you. "We stand for compassion" as they rain bombs on defenceless people they have kept beaten down for decades. The hypocrisy is so stark it is almost too difficult to get your head around. Whatever comes to Netanyahu is far far too good for him.

Israel - Palestine Conflict. **Mod note in OP - updated 1st August**

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Israel - Palestine Conflict. Mod note in OP - updated 1st August