Israel - Palestine Conflict. Mod note in OP - updated 1st August

TommyKnocker · 05-08-2014 03:28PM

This is well worth a look

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etXAm-OylQQ

Dan_Solo · 05-08-2014 03:28PM

Tuisceanch wrote: »

Please do not be fooled by this talk of Peace Negotiations.Israel has no interest in peace and this rhetoric about being concerned about all human life but failing to condemn outright the obvious slaughter is only a tactic being
employed by apologists for genocide.There is no sincerity behind their words. They all use the same formula in their discussions.

100% PR move between land grabs.

WakeUp · 05-08-2014 03:28PM

fedor.2. wrote: »

Who is going to hold them accountable though? You know as well as I do the way this world works. The best we can hope for, is a continued ceasefire and continued negotiations, in the hope that some workable and sustainable truce can be achieved.

No that isn't the best we can hope for and quite frankly not good enough not anymore infact that's boll0x. I'm not directing that at you personally I'm just saying. international law is quite clear. if Israel have a case to answer and Israeli courts are not prepared to investigate their own people then ICC mechanisms come into play and they must investigate and prosecute if required. these are the rules the majority of the civilised world adhere too. there is so much at stake this time which isn't probably apparent right now. give it time and it will be.

My name is URL · 05-08-2014 03:31PM

fedor.2. wrote: »

Who is going to hold them accountable though?

If Palestine signs up to the ICC treaty then they can lodge a formal complaint to the prosecutor who must then investigate claims made against Israel.

In 2012, the UN general assembly accorded Palestine the status of statehood, which means that treaty can now be ratified.

Prior to 2012 the only avenue available would have been through the UN Security Council and the US has the power of veto in that situation, and they have vetoed every single resolution so far.

If they ratify the treaty they can lodge a complaint without the chance of the US standing in its way. Probably a long-shot, since doing so would mean that Hamas could also be held accountable for war crimes, but the possibility now exists when it never did before.

hatrickpatrick · 05-08-2014 03:35PM

With regard to the previously linked articles on the collapse of talks, the following is key, in my view:

"He [Abbas] agreed to a demilitarized state; he agreed to the border outline so 80 percent of settlers would continue living in Israeli territory; he agreed for Israel to keep security sensitive areas (mostly in the Jordan Valley - NB) for five years, and then the United States would take over. He accepted the fact that in the Israeli perception, the Palestinians would never be trustworthy.

"He also agreed that the Jewish neighborhoods in East Jerusalem would remain under Israeli sovereignty, and agreed that the return of Palestinians to Israel would depend on Israeli willingness. 'Israel won't be flooded with refugees,' he promised.

"He told us: 'Tell me if there's another Arab leader that would have agreed to what I agreed to. I won't make any more concessions until Israel agrees to the three following terms:

Outlining the borders would be the first topic under discussion. It would be agreed upon within three months.
A timeframe would be set for the evacuation of Israelis from sovereign Palestinian territories (Israel had agreed to complete the evacuation of Sinai within three years).
Israel will agree to have East Jerusalem as the capital of Palestine.

The Israelis would not agree to any of the three demands."

That, ladies and gentlemen, is the Israeli "open door to negotiations".

Really, the most shameful aspect of all this (assuming the above is actually true) is the American failure to publicly call the Israelis out on their bullsh!t. I know they are politically beholden to AIPAC and ADL, but in my view these facts are crucial to the story, and the Israelis appear to have said "we'll negotiate, as long as 'negotiate' means we decide what happens and Abbas agrees".

Dan_Solo · 05-08-2014 03:45PM

My name is URL wrote: »

If Palestine signs up to the ICC treaty then they can lodge a formal complaint to the prosecutor who must then investigate claims made against Israel.

In 2012, the UN general assembly accorded Palestine the status of statehood, which means that treaty can now be ratified.

Prior to 2012 the only avenue available would have been through the UN Security Council and the US has the power of veto in that situation, and they have vetoed every single resolution so far.

If they ratify the treaty they can lodge a complaint without the chance of the US standing in its way. Probably a long-shot, since doing so would mean that Hamas could also be held accountable for war crimes, but the possibility now exists when it never did before.

I thought they were still denied full UN membership due to US/Israeli interference?

hatrickpatrick · 05-08-2014 03:49PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

I thought they were still denied full UN membership due to US/Israeli interference?

They don't need full membership, as they are acknowledged as an "observer state" they can apply for most UN organisations.

Son Of A Vidic · 05-08-2014 03:52PM

fedor.2. wrote: »

Yes, it is the beginning, of peace negotiations

If you think the Israeli government has a genuine interest in peace and conflict resolution, then you are being naive. Netanyahu has been an enemy of peace going right back to the Oslo accords. He is a rejectionist politician who has been a consistent enemy of peace. From green lighting the rapid expansion and aggressive increase in illegal settlements. To his recent blood letting in Gaza. His priority has always been, to maintain his grip on power and keep his Zionist cabinet colleagues happy. Only the Americans can bring the necessary pressure, but looking at John kerry's incompetent diplomacy in recent weeks. I wouldn't hold my breath on a long term sustainable peace being achieved any time soon.

Son Of A Vidic · 05-08-2014 03:58PM

My name is URL wrote: »

If they ratify the treaty they can lodge a complaint without the chance of the US standing in its way.

Which won't happen because clever boy America provides enough aid the Palestinians, to literally have them by the balls so to speak.

Nodin · 05-08-2014 04:03PM

My name is URL wrote: »

If Palestine signs up to the ICC treaty then they can lodge a formal complaint to the prosecutor who must then investigate claims made against Israel.

In 2012, the UN general assembly accorded Palestine the status of statehood, which means that treaty can now be ratified.

Prior to 2012 the only avenue available would have been through the UN Security Council and the US has the power of veto in that situation, and they have vetoed every single resolution so far.

If they ratify the treaty they can lodge a complaint without the chance of the US standing in its way. Probably a long-shot, since doing so would mean that Hamas could also be held accountable for war crimes, but the possibility now exists when it never did before.

Neither Israel or the US has ratified the treaty with regard to the ICC. They might get a 'moral victory', but to no real effect.

Meanwhile - Woman with a Pair - fair play to her

"Foreign Office minister Baroness Warsi has resigned from the government, saying its policy on the crisis in Gaza is "morally indefensible".
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-28656874

Chance The Rapper · 05-08-2014 04:07PM

What happens after 72 hours and they can't agree to anything ?

fedor.2. · 05-08-2014 04:11PM

Nodin wrote: »

Neither Israel or the US has ratified the treaty with regard to the ICC. They might get a 'moral victory', but to no real effect.

Meanwhile - Woman with a Pair - fair play to her

"Foreign Office minister Baroness Warsi has resigned from the government, saying its policy on the crisis in Gaza is "morally indefensible".
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-28656874

Warsi was on the way out anyway

Son Of A Vidic · 05-08-2014 04:12PM

Nodin wrote: »

Meanwhile - Woman with a Pair - fair play to her

"Foreign Office minister Baroness Warsi has resigned from the government, saying its policy on the crisis in Gaza is "morally indefensible".
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-28656874

Ironic to see the gutless silence from Cameron regarding Gaza. Yet the twit seemingly can't do enough, as he tries to restart the Cold War.

WakeUp · 05-08-2014 04:16PM

Nodin wrote: »

Neither Israel or the US has ratified the treaty with regard to the ICC. They might get a 'moral victory', but to no real effect.

Meanwhile - Woman with a Pair - fair play to her

"Foreign Office minister Baroness Warsi has resigned from the government, saying its policy on the crisis in Gaza is "morally indefensible".
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-28656874

It isn't just about crimes they have committed but preventing further crimes in the future. it would be more than a moral victory if anything comes of it. If Israel has a case to answer it must be held accountable.
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2013/01/30/opinion/why-palestine-should-take-israel-to-court-in-the-hague.html?_r=1

Nodin · 05-08-2014 04:16PM

fedor.2. wrote: »

Warsi was on the way out anyway

Really? You've some source for that?

eeepaulo · 05-08-2014 04:22PM

fedor.2. wrote: »

Warsi was on the way out anyway

There was a reshuffle a couple of weeks ago, you would have thought if she was on her way out...... Oh well.

And this.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/gaza/11013233/Baroness-Warsis-resignation-over-Gaza-is-frankly-unnecessary-says-George-Osborne.html

Dont ever let anything stand in the way of your opinion

fedor.2. · 05-08-2014 04:23PM

Nodin wrote: »

Really? You've some source for that?

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danhodges/100282457/baroness-warsis-resignation-has-more-to-do-with-the-reshuffle-than-it-does-with-gaza/

hatrickpatrick · 05-08-2014 04:25PM

Nodin wrote: »

Neither Israel or the US has ratified the treaty with regard to the ICC. They might get a 'moral victory', but to no real effect.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that other member states of the ICC would be obliged to arrest and hand over Israeli officials to the court if those officials landed in their own territories, which would seriously damage Israel's diplomatic relations, especially with Europe.

eeepaulo · 05-08-2014 04:27PM

fedor.2. wrote: »

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danhodges/100282457/baroness-warsis-resignation-has-more-to-do-with-the-reshuffle-than-it-does-with-gaza/

At the top of that blog it says the following

Dan Hodges

Dan Hodges is a former Labour Party and GMB trade union official, and has managed numerous independent political campaigns. He writes about Labour with tribal loyalty and without reservation.

fedor.2. · 05-08-2014 04:29PM

eeepaulo wrote: »

At the top of that blog it says the following

Dan Hodges

Dan Hodges is a former Labour Party and GMB trade union official, and has managed numerous independent political campaigns. He writes about Labour with tribal loyalty and without reservation.

I'd appreciate if you point out where he says something that isn't true. I'm always open to correction.

Peist2007 · 05-08-2014 04:31PM

fedor.2. wrote: »

I'd appreciate if you point out where he says something that isn't true. I'm always open to correction.

Someone is showing you links to the Telegraph and you produced a blog as a reply. See no issue with that?

eeepaulo · 05-08-2014 04:32PM

fedor.2. wrote: »

I'd appreciate if you point out where he says something that isn't true. I'm always open to correction.

Um, so you dismiss the letter wrote by the lady herself, and what her colleagues say, and instead rely on a blog by someone who works for a trade union and gives an unattributed quote from a tory backbencher, i am not saying his opinion isnt correct, it is his opinion.

fedor.2. · 05-08-2014 04:33PM

eeepaulo wrote: »

Um, so you dismiss the letter wrote by the lady herself, and what her colleagues say, and instead rely on a blog by someone who works for a trade union and gives an unattributed quote from a tory backbencher, i am not saying his opinion isnt correct, it is his opinion.

Pretty much, ya

Nodin · 05-08-2014 04:33PM

fedor.2. wrote: »

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danhodges/100282457/baroness-warsis-resignation-has-more-to-do-with-the-reshuffle-than-it-does-with-gaza/

Nothing there that suggests she was going to get the chop. She wasn't happy with the policy, so she left. Shows balls. The easy thing to do is keep the bheal dunta and carry on taking the money.

Nodin · 05-08-2014 04:34PM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that other member states of the ICC would be obliged to arrest and hand over Israeli officials to the court if those officials landed in their own territories, which would seriously damage Israel's diplomatic relations, especially with Europe.

You'd think that, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

eeepaulo · 05-08-2014 04:36PM

fedor.2. wrote: »

Pretty much, ya

How wonderfully simple.

As you are obviously attempting to suggest that this debatable

Here is the letter to david cameron and the response

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-28657623

fedor.2. · 05-08-2014 04:37PM

Nodin wrote: »

Nothing there that suggests she was going to get the chop. She wasn't happy with the policy, so she left. Shows balls. The easy thing to do is keep the bheal dunta and carry on taking the money.

I'd call it opportunistic myself. She was unhappy with her treatment by the party and used this conflict as a vehicle to cause some damage, and come out on the moral high ground. Good politician.

hatrickpatrick · 05-08-2014 04:38PM

Nodin wrote: »

You'd think that, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

As far as I know, there's no real wiggle room - members are in effect breaking international law if they harbour fugitives from the court.

I'm having trouble finding a source for this, but I definitely remember reading it several times when Palestine was initially granted UNGA statehood.

Nodin · 05-08-2014 04:39PM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

As far as I know, there's no real wiggle room - members are in effect breaking international law if they harbour fugitives from the court.

I'm having trouble finding a source for this, but I definitely remember reading it several times when Palestine was initially granted UNGA statehood.

I'd hope you're right, but I've been watching this crap too long to be optimistic.

fedor.2. · 05-08-2014 04:39PM

eeepaulo wrote: »

How wonderfully simple.

As you are obviously attempting to suggest that this debatable

Here is the letter to david cameron and the response

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-28657623

Well, he was hardly going to say anything else, was he. I'd imagine Cameron is pretty relieved that she's gone

Israel - Palestine Conflict. **Mod note in OP - updated 1st August**

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Israel - Palestine Conflict. Mod note in OP - updated 1st August