Israel - Palestine Conflict. Mod note in OP - updated 1st August

hatrickpatrick · 04-08-2014 04:06PM

Add Smyth's toy store to the boycott list:

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/staff-at-dublin-toy-shop-told-to-remove-israel-boycott-sign-1.1887155

shewasdiesel · 04-08-2014 04:06PM

Tuisceanch wrote: »

So you are just interested in attributing your simplistic notions and unfounded accusations onto others on the basis of your own prejudice. I provided you an opportunity to discuss your insights into how this violence might be resolved by the international bodies and governments with the clout and authority to do so but you just returned to the worn out cliches of yesteryear sporting your tattered badge of peace.

There you have it folks, don't kill civilians, don't be a terrorist, is too simplistic and prejudiced and peace is just a tattered badge.

shewasdiesel · 04-08-2014 04:07PM

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

Funnily enough, the biggest surprise my friends encountered when they worked out in Gaza was. How popular Hamas actually was. Out there it is a misnomer to call them Hamas. Apparently, most people simply called them The Resistance.

Yep SF/IRA/UDA/UFF/RUC/UDR are very popular in sections of NI as well.
They were called the same thing there.

hatrickpatrick · 04-08-2014 04:10PM

shewasdiesel wrote: »

There you have it folks, don't kill civilians, don't be a terrorist, is too simplistic and prejudiced and peace is just a tattered badge.

Peace without justice is not enough. "Peace" could be declared tomorrow if violent hostilities ceased permanently, even if Israel was allowed to continue settlement expansion. Peace must also be accompanied by the return of stolen Palestinian lands outside Israel's legitimate border as defined in 1949, or else "peace" is simply a euphemism for Israeli victory.

Tuisceanch · 04-08-2014 04:11PM

shewasdiesel wrote: »

There you have it folks, don't kill civilians, don't be a terrorist, is too simplistic and prejudiced and peace is just a tattered badge.

Well if you find me too intimidating to discuss the question I posed and choose to attribute your meaning to my words then that's fine because I don't find that you have much capacity to express yourself coherently anyway. You seem to be descending into gibberish but maybe it's because English is a foreign language to you and you would be more eloquent in your native tongue.

Nate--IRL-- · 04-08-2014 04:14PM

Please Provide your Definition of terrorist.

According to this Definition below, both Hamas and the IDF are Terrorists.

ter·ror·ism [ter-uh-riz-uhm]
noun
1.
the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, especially for political purposes.
2.
the state of fear and submission produced by terrorism or terrorization.
3.
a terroristic method of governing or of resisting a government.

shewasdiesel · 04-08-2014 04:15PM

Tuisceanch wrote: »

Well if you find me too intimidating to discuss the question I posed and choose to attribute your meaning to my words then that's fine because I don't find that you have much capacity to express yourself coherently anyway. You seem to be descending into gibberish but maybe it's because English is a foreign language to you and you would be more eloquent in your native tongue.

I don't find people who resort to what you say intimidating in the slightest.
I hope that doesn't burst your bubble.
I never have. I used to get the same hysterical abuse from SF/IRA/UDA/RUC/UDR supporters in NI. It didn't work then, it won't work now.
Your question has been answered, people should stop killing civilians, either arab or jewish ones.

Son Of A Vidic · 04-08-2014 04:16PM

shewasdiesel wrote: »

Yep SF/IRA/UDA/UFF/RUC/UDR are very popular in sections of NI as well.
They were called the same thing there.

Regrettably, people often do strange and reprehensible things in the face of State terrorism and terrorist regimes. You know what they say, violence begets violence.

Tuisceanch · 04-08-2014 04:21PM

Tuisceanch wrote: »

Well if you read all my posts then you might get a better understanding of my position. Are you now going to reduce the broader discussion to your terms i.e. Is Hamas a terrorist group. Yes or No? I demand an answer? That sounds like a familiar tactic and doesn't suggest a genuine desire to discuss with people. I condemn wanton violence and expect governments and international bodies to do the same and given their resources I would expect them to take action to prevent violence. What about you?

shewasdiesel wrote: »

I don't find people who resort to what you say intimidating in the slightest.
I never have. I used to get the same hysterical abuse from SF/IRA/UDA/RUC/UDR supporters in NI. It didn't work then, it won't work now.
Your question has been answered, stop killing civilians, either arab or jewish ones.

Well that wasn't my question. Any reasonable person is in favour of what you have just expressed but how is it to be achieved? Surely not by reducing a discussion to the terms you have. That's what I mean by being intimidated because you don't ever move the discussion forward as if you are afraid to be shown up by your lack of understanding. Also the tatterd badge of peace was referring to the fact that you proclaim to be a man of peace but your words are angry and aggressive and lacking substance. Engage in meaningful discussion and wear your badge with some degree of sincerity and pride.

randy hickey · 04-08-2014 04:22PM

The Israelis have started shelling again.

You can watch a live feed from Gaza here:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/palestinianauthority/10970066/Watch-live-Israeli-troops-pull-back-amid-new-Gaza-ceasefire-attempt.html

shewasdiesel · 04-08-2014 04:24PM

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

Regrettably, people often do strange and reprehensible things in the face of State terrorism and terrorist regimes. You know what they say, violence begets violence.

It does indeed, but the type of people who crave political power and control rarely care about many ordinary people suffer in the process. It's all a means to a personal end for them.

NipNip · 04-08-2014 04:27PM

The thing that strikes me is that we hear a lot in media and from Israel about Hamas. What bothers me is that there is no spokesperson for Hamas (or have I been missing a few press releases?).

Tuisceanch · 04-08-2014 04:29PM

shewasdiesel wrote: »

It does indeed, but the type of people who crave political power and control rarely care about many ordinary people suffer in the process. It's all a means to a personal end for them.

You see? I have always being of that opinion as are many people here and so why enter a forum with all guns blazing as if you are the only person who cares.

Son Of A Vidic · 04-08-2014 04:30PM

shewasdiesel wrote: »

It does indeed, but the type of people who crave political power and control rarely care about many ordinary people suffer in the process. It's all a means to a personal end for them.

And that's precisely what the world is witnessing right now in Gaza. Bibi doesn't care for, nor want a Two State solution. He needs to appease the Zionist fanatics in his cabinet, in order for him to maintain his long term grip on power.

shewasdiesel · 04-08-2014 04:31PM

Tuisceanch wrote: »

You see? I have always being of that opinion as are many people here and so why enter a forum with all guns blazing as if you are the only person who cares.

.

Tuisceanch wrote: »

Well if you find me too intimidating to discuss the question I posed and choose to attribute your meaning to my words then that's fine because I don't find that you have much capacity to express yourself coherently anyway. You seem to be descending into gibberish but maybe it's because English is a foreign language to you and you would be more eloquent in your native tongue.

Tail Docker · 04-08-2014 04:32PM

randy hickey wrote: »

The Israelis have started shelling again.

You can watch a live feed from Gaza here:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/palestinianauthority/10970066/Watch-live-Israeli-troops-pull-back-amid-new-Gaza-ceasefire-attempt.html

Some crazed terrorist 12 year old must have run from a to b - they need to be shelled to death for their own good and to prevent those runs of mass destruction damaging a peaceful Israeli self-defence tank from going about its business of spreading love and unity.

Sound of Silence · 04-08-2014 04:33PM

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

And that's precisely what the world is witnessing right now in Gaza. Bibi doesn't care for, nor want a Two State solution. He needs to appease the Zionist fanatics in his cabinet, in order for him to maintain his long term grip on power.

And when over 90% of Israeli's support the ongoing assault on Gaza, I doubt we'll see a swift end to this ongoing conflict.

Tuisceanch · 04-08-2014 04:37PM

Tuisceanch wrote: »

Well if this is what you want to discuss there are plenty of other places you can be. You seem to be more interesting in baiting people because of your own anger issues than discussing the subject of the plight of innocent civilians. You proclaim that you are in fact not a supporter of Israeli policies but have nothing to say on the subject. You project the notion that people here are life long devoted followers of Hamas when mostly people have being drawing attention to the news sources and personal accounts of the inhumanity of the Israeli onslaught. It's hard to know what you stand for if anything.

shewasdiesel wrote: »

I've condemned Israel as many times, but Hamas are also terrorists.
I've yet to see you condemn any terrorism from Hamas.

Tuisceanch wrote: »

Well if you read all my posts then you might get a better understanding of my position. Are you now going to reduce the broader discussion to your terms i.e. Is Hamas a terrorist group. Yes or No? I demand an answer? That sounds like a familiar tactic and doesn't suggest a genuine desire to discuss with people. I condemn wanton violence and expect governments and international bodies to do the same and given their resources I would expect them to take action to prevent violence. What about you?

shewasdiesel wrote: »

You can decide one terrorist organisation and civilian killers are better than another, based on their less successful rate. I'm not.

And for somebody who was decrying the use of mantras then how do you explain this:

Originally Posted by Frank Lee Midere View Post
Yes. Although killing Israeli soldiers after an invasion isn't a terrorist act, Hamas have engaged in terrorism. The 1,300 dead Palestinians, and the million displaced, are not Hamas though. Despite your attempt at collective punishment.
To which you replied
You can pretend one terrorist who chooses to kill civilians is better than another, I'm not

Tuisceanch wrote: »

So you are just interested in attributing your simplistic notions and unfounded accusations onto others on the basis of your own prejudice. I provided you an opportunity to discuss your insights into how this violence might be resolved by the international bodies and governments with the clout and authority to do so but you just returned to the worn out cliches of yesteryear sporting your tattered badge of peace.

shewasdiesel wrote: »

There you have it folks, don't kill civilians, don't be a terrorist, is too simplistic and prejudiced and peace is just a tattered badge.

Tuisceanch wrote: »

Well if you find me too intimidating to discuss the question I posed and choose to attribute your meaning to my words then that's fine because I don't find that you have much capacity to express yourself coherently anyway. You seem to be descending into gibberish but maybe it's because English is a foreign language to you and you would be more eloquent in your native tongue.

shewasdiesel wrote: »

I don't find people who resort to what you say intimidating in the slightest.
I hope that doesn't burst your bubble.
I never have. I used to get the same hysterical abuse from SF/IRA/UDA/RUC/UDR supporters in NI. It didn't work then, it won't work now.
Your question has been answered, people should stop killing civilians, either arab or jewish ones.

The only person who descended to hysterical abuse was you and I rightly questioned your capacity to read English and attributed it,perhaps wrongly,to the possibility that English is not your first language as I would not expect a native English speaker with good intentions to so willfully misrepresent what was said to them. Again this is a familiar tactic of certain types.

Tuisceanch wrote: »

Well that wasn't my question. Any reasonable person is in favour of what you have just expressed but how is it to be achieved? Surely not by reducing a discussion to the terms you have. That's what I mean by being intimidated because you don't ever move the discussion forward as if you are afraid to be shown up by your lack of understanding. Also the tattered badge of peace was referring to the fact that you proclaim to be a man of peace but your words are angry and aggressive and lacking substance. Engage in meaningful discussion and wear your badge with some degree of sincerity and pride.

shewasdiesel wrote: »

I won't apologize for willfully misrepresenting people... (is what I think what you meant to say) [Tuisceanch].

As so you see it was you that attributed meaning to my words where there was none and did not draw a line under your own misconceptions and move the discussion forward in the way I suggested. Don't look for contention when there isn't any and it has being explained to you adequately.

Son Of A Vidic · 04-08-2014 04:40PM

Sound of Silence wrote: »

And when over 90% of Israeli's support the ongoing assault on Gaza, I doubt we'll see a swift end to this ongoing conflict.

In fairness to them, the Israeli media & reporting on Gaza is severely self censored. They will not show imagery of obliterated civilian areas, the causality horror, or the suffering of Palestinian civilians. And I always question the accuracy of any Poll, no matter where it is conducted. There is a growing voice of dissent in Israel, but unfortunately the jingoistic mainstream media conveniently overlook it.

Nodin · 04-08-2014 04:41PM

Looting - I'd imagine there was a good bit of that in Gaza

http://blog.yesh-din.org/en/?p=853

http://blog.yesh-din.org/en/?p=847

'The most moral army in the world'

Tuisceanch · 04-08-2014 04:42PM

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

In fairness to them, the Israeli media & reporting on Gaza is severely self censored. They will not show imagery of obliterated civilian areas, the causality horror, or the suffering of Palestinian civilians. And I always question the accuracy of any Poll, no matter where it is conducted. There is a growing voice of dissent in Israel, but unfortunately the jingoistic mainstream media conveniently overlook it.

Well I was watching http://www.i24news.tv/en/ last night to gain some insight into their concept of unbiased journalism. They stated that Israeli journalists were prevented from entering the Gaza strip by the IDF.

Reformed Character · 04-08-2014 05:03PM

shewasdiesel wrote: »

Israelis are proven terrorists, simples. If you're claiming otherwise, prove it.

FYP

Tuisceanch · 04-08-2014 05:09PM

shewasdiesel wrote: »

There you have it folks, don't kill civilians, don't be a terrorist, is too simplistic and prejudiced and peace is just a tattered badge.

Also in response to your approach of labeling people as supporters of Hamas simply because they decry the violence of Israel ,then please read the following:

"Before you begin to develop an opinion on the Palestinian-Israeli conflict, you must first question your sources of information, and also understand the way journalism is manipulated in the West. The manner in which things are reported doesn't necessarily reflect the reality. You must always ask: who benefits from skewed and misrepresented facts? For example, Israel receives billions of dollars of aid from our American taxes...so it is in their best interest to "look good" in front of the American public. Therefore, they must demonize "the other side" by throwing words around like: "terrorists," "human shields," "Islamist," "terror tunnels," "self-genocide," and so on and so forth. There are many accusations made with zero substantial evidence, and even when claims are disproved by UN investigations, the liars insist on the lies. Be aware of this.
If you have never lived in Gaza, West Bank, or Israel, you can't just rely on your emotions and bad journalism. You have to read the history, seek different sources of news (like local reporters), get in touch with people living there, research facts and statistics, read what "the other side" has to say. Only when you've expanded your knowledge could your opinion become validated.
Always ask questions and investigate before you fall victim to systematic brainwashing, and thus allow the continuation of oppression and genocide.”

It is simply not good enough to proclaim yourself a man of peace and then equate both sides as being equally reprehensible and simply wash your hands and return to a place where you can bask in your own righteousness. You need to do more than that or else your approach could be considered suspect and disingenuous.

pedro1234 · 04-08-2014 06:05PM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Add Smyth's toy store to the boycott list:

irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/staff-at-dublin-toy-shop-told-to-remove-israel-boycott-sign-1.1887155

EDIT: Oh I see what you mean!

RustyNut · 04-08-2014 06:38PM

shewasdiesel wrote: »

Oh indeed the IDF are currently the worse offender, but Hamas are not someone to be supported either.

So you do agree the the IDF are Terrorists,You must also agree that the actions carried out by the TERRORIST IDF are Terrorist actions against a mostly civilian population.
This would then lead to the conclusion that Israel is a Terrorist state as it uses the Terrorist IDF to impose its Terrorist policys on the mostly civilian population of Gaza and this would indicate that Zionism is a Terrorist ideology which is using the Terrorist state of Israel to impose its Terrorist ideology by using the Terrorist IDF and their Terrorist actions against a mostly civilian population.

So to sum up, Israel is a Terrorist state using the IDF Terrorist organisation who use Terrorist tactics to impose a Terrorist ideology on a reluctant civilian population.

Did I say it enough.

Tuisceanch · 04-08-2014 06:46PM

Dutch Activists call for a blockade of the Israeli Embassy and issue these demands.

1) Israel must immediately and unconditionally cease all hostilities in Gaza.

2) The Netherlands must condemn the Israeli violence in the strongest terms. In addition, the Netherlands must demand Israel puts an end to its military campaign and lifts the blockade of Gaza.

3) The Dutch ambassador to Israel must be recalled, following the example of a number of Latin American countries.

http://tinyurl.com/qfyy3xs

Tuisceanch · 04-08-2014 06:51PM

http://normanfinkelstein.com/2014/the-truth-at-last/

Front page of 'New York Times May 10th 1943'

"Warsaw Ghetto rising and Over-Reaction.
European leaders blame jews for disproportionate response"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wnec6SmjHP0

plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

Tuisceanch · 04-08-2014 06:54PM

“You have robbed their future and they are in despair. Hamas doesn’t have much support, but there is immense support for the sentiment that there’s nothing left to lose. And on the other side, there is a society in Israel that doesn’t care. It’s very sad. You, who went through the Holocaust, have become racist. In my opinion, this is a tragedy. Why are you doing this? You are crossing every ethical boundary – and in the end, it will also destroy your own society.”

http://normanfinkelstein.com/2014/13359/

Santa Cruz · 04-08-2014 07:06PM

Aurelia Melted Surfer wrote: »

Unfortunately the Palestinians never really endeared themselves with their neighbours.. The PLO terrorized Lebanon, in fact the Lebanese welcomed the IDF into their country during Operation Litani and Operation Peace for Galilee.. The Jordanians had their own bother with them too, and slaughtered many (Black September 1970) during the civil war when the PLO attempted their own land grab.

The rest can be put down to politics, corruption and 'my enemies enemy is my friend'.. A small part is the Palestinians are a festering wound which Arabs don't really want to let heal, it suits them to have Israel tied up with a Palestinian problem.

In Lebanon today Palestinians are brutally oppressed.

The Palestinians have been fooled for years by the Arab states who have used the Palestinian cause as a distraction from their own oppressive regimes. As a result the Palestinians believed that they had allies thus removing the common sense approach of sitting down and hammering out an agreement with Israel

Nodin · 04-08-2014 07:17PM

Santa Cruz wrote: »

The Palestinians have been fooled for years by the Arab states who have used the Palestinian cause as a distraction from their own oppressive regimes. As a result the Palestinians believed that they had allies thus removing the common sense approach of sitting down and hammering out an agreement with Israel

Why do you think Israel wants an agreement? As it stands they can do as they please, take what land they want with no penalty and very few casualties. Why would they stop?

Israel - Palestine Conflict. **Mod note in OP - updated 1st August**

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Israel - Palestine Conflict. Mod note in OP - updated 1st August