Israel - Palestine Conflict. **Mod note in OP - updated 1st August**

Manic Moran wrote: »

In any case, why is this being discussed? The Israelis seem happy with the system they have, they're taking few casualties, what's the issue?

This is the broader issue being discussed

"Before you begin to develop an opinion on the Palestinian-Israeli conflict, you must first question your sources of information, and also understand the way journalism is manipulated in the West. The manner in which things are reported doesn't necessarily reflect the reality. You must always ask: who benefits from skewed and misrepresented facts? For example, Israel receives billions of dollars of aid from our American taxes...so it is in their best interest to "look good" in front of the American public. Therefore, they must demonize "the other side" by throwing words around like: "terrorists," "human shields," "Islamist," "terror tunnels," "self-genocide," and so on and so forth. There are many accusations made with zero substantial evidence, and even when claims are disproved by UN investigations, the liars insist on the lies. Be aware of this.
If you have never lived in Gaza, West Bank, or Israel, you can't just rely on your emotions and bad journalism. You have to read the history, seek different sources of news (like local reporters), get in touch with people living there, research facts and statistics, read what "the other side" has to say. Only when you've expanded your knowledge could your opinion become validated.
Always ask questions and investigate before you fall victim to systematic brainwashing, and thus allow the continuation of oppression and genocide.”

Therefore it is legitimate to examine all assertions made regarding the defensive capabilities of each side and the justification thereof their necessity and effectiveness.

However I think I have gleaned as much information on the subject from those who had something substantive to say on the subject and I thank them for their time and effort.

Manic Moran wrote: »

What I find unlikely is that someone back at base made a specific conscious decision like "today, Ishmael, your mission is to bomb the Al Jafait Hospital" Of course, what I find unlikely may actually be happening, in which case it also is blatantly unlawful.

I wonder did Ishmael order IDF tanks to repeatedly shell the Al Aqsa hospital in Gaza?

Earlier in the day, Israeli tanks reportedly shelled a hospital in Gaza, killing at least four people and wounding 60, half of whom were medical staff.

A Palestinian health official said that 12 shells had been fired at the Al Aqsa hospital in the town of Deir el-Balah, striking parts of the building that included the intensive care unit and the surgery department.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israelgaza-conflict-tanks-shell-gaza-hospital-killing-four-and-wounding-30-medical-staff-as-seven-more-israeli-soldiers-die-9619055.html

The IDF has a disgracefully track record for being involved in such incidents. Most people have long since moved past coincidence. The Gaza strip is one of the most surveilled & monitored strips of land on the planet. The IDF are pioneers of surveillance drone technology and have closely collaborated with the US & shared such technology. So I find it hard to swallow when fire support/suppression is being called in, that it's a case of "Oh we didn't realise that hospital had five stories and got in the way of an incoming rounds trajectory."

The IDF has well established previous form for attacking critical civilian infrastructure, food warehouses, schools, hospitals and UN facilities.The IDF also has an impressive record for repeated breaches of The Geneva Convention and War Crimes.The recent incident where a UN school gave it's GPS coordinates to the IDF on 17 occasions. Yet still suffered a devastating attack doesn't surprises me, or those who can remember not only how they've previously conducted themselves in Gaza, but also in Lebanon.

The IDF bombing and destruction of UN PATROL BASE KHIAM, SOUTHERN LEBANON.JULY 25, 2006, being another infamous incident in their impressive legacy of war crimes. 4 UN onservers were wiped out at that observer base. Bravely and while under IDF fire, they logged and cataloged IDF breaches of the Geneva Convention.

The village of El Khiam sits atop a long, low ridge, within sight of Israel. In the near distance the lights of Israeli military positions can be seen along the border and high atop Mount Dov to the east. The people of El Khiam do not call Mount Dov by that name though, not at all. The residents are almost exclusively Shia’a Muslims, which by consequence makes the place a de facto Hezbollah stronghold. They call it the mountainous area “Sha’aba Farms” and consider it Lebanese territory.

('Wolf' - is the nickname for Canadian Officer and UN Peacekeeper Maj. Paeta Hess-von Kruedene )

Wolf threw himself onto the wooden decking seconds before the bomb hit its target, less than a half a soccer field away. The blast was shockingly loud, the air filled with shrapnel and fire. The peacekeepers were flung across the platform. Wolf was flat on the deck, his Canadian desert combat uniform covered in debris. The others were stunned but Wolf was up. “Bunker. Bunker,” he yelled. He could see another F-16 coming in on a run. “Go. Go. Go,” he screamed.

They didn’t make it in time. The second jet was just metres overhead; it had caught them in the open. Wolf was on the ladder trying to get down to the bunker. But the jet didn’t kill them; it merely rained flares down on them as it was trying to draw Hezbollah fire.

Once inside the bunker, Wolf called the UN duty officer to get him to tell the Israelis that the attack was too close. The UN peacekeeper field manual states that a 1,000-pound bomb landing anywhere inside of 1,000 metres is “firing close” and considered to be endangering peacekeepers’ lives.

This was just the beginning. Over the next 13 days, Wolf and his comrades would log 52 incidents of “firing close” and 6 incidents of direct hits­—“firing in.”

Actually it was seven incidents of “firing in,” but the seventh one went unlogged, for reasons which will become very clear.

This wasn’t a small skirmish, or limited retaliation, it was an attempt by Israel to destroy Hezbollah. In that attempt they became extremely destructive and ruthless. They employed a tactic of near-saturation bombing, destroying hundreds upon hundreds of homes and killing more than a thousand civilians.


Wolf and his team were right in the heart of it, standing on their platform at Patrol Base Khiam, charting each truce violation and each breach of the Geneva Convention as it happened....

..

Wolf got his way and he headed into town with Du and Jarno. The three peacekeepers made it to the village store with no problem. They knew the shopkeeper well, having been there many times. Moments after they left with their supplies, the shop was struck by Israeli artillery, killing everyone inside.

“It is disgusting what [the Israelis] are doing here,” Wolf wrote in an email to Cynthia. “Yesterday I witnessed an [Israeli] attack helicopter fire missiles at a local school and destroy a brand new hospital. These [guys] are trying to cripple and destroy the infrastructure of Lebanon. What this has to do with the Hezbollah terrorists I have no idea and cannot make the connection. I agree that the [Israelis] have the right to protect themselves, but they are indiscriminately bombing and targeting the civilian population and infrastructure, which is a ****ing WAR CRIME under the Geneva Conventions.”

https://legionmagazine.com/en/2013/01/one-martyr-down-the-untold-story-of-a-canadian-peacekeeper-killed-at-war/"]https://legionmagazine.com/en/2013/01/one-martyr-down-the-untold-story-of-a-canadian-peacekeeper-killed-at-war/[/URL]

Maj. Paeta Hess-von Kruedener of Kingston, Ont., a member of the Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry, was one of four UN military observers who died when the Israeli Defence Forces bombed a marked United Nations post on July 25, 2006.

Cynthia Hess-von Kruedener said her husband's mission was to report on the hostilities in the area and she believes that is why Israeli forces attacked the Israeli United Nations Truce Supervision Organization (UNTSO) post, despite Israel's claims that the bombing was accidental.

"Obviously they were unhappy with what they were observing. Maybe that post was in the way as well," she said. "I know my husband was reporting war crimes. And I guess they don't want to deal with that."

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/un-officer-reported-israeli-war-crimes-before-deadly-bombing-widow-1.703087

“These so-called precision attacks seem to be mainly targeting everyone else except the Hezbollah,” said Finnish Foreign Minister Erkki Tuomioja.

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/14034540/ns/world_news-mideast_n_africa/t/israel-expresses-deep-regret-after-un-strike/#.U93OCPldVSI

Lt. Col. John Molloy, the senior Irish officer in the U.N. observer force in south Lebanon, reported making six telephone calls to his Israeli counterparts in the hours before the deadly strike on the border outpost, said Suzanne Coogan, spokeswoman for Irish Defense Minister Willie O’Dea. She said all six calls specifically identified the U.N. post that was ultimately destroyed.

“He warned the Israelis that they were shelling in very close proximity to the post, and his warnings were very specific, explicit, detailed and stark. Obviously those warnings went unheeded,” Coogan said.

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/14034540/ns/world_news-mideast_n_africa/t/israel-expresses-deep-regret-after-un-strike/#.U93OCPldVSI


Then how could we forget the infamous Qana massacre in Southern Lebanon, in April 1996, where 106 Lebanese civilians were killed in a direct IDF attack on a UN compound that was sheltering refugees.

A UN source in southern Lebanon last night ridiculed the Israeli statement. "The UN camp has been in Qana for 18 years. They have pictures of every village in southern Lebanon and know who lives in every house there. Once again, the Israelis are insulting our intelligence. They had been flying drones over Qana for a week before the massacre. And even if they thought there were no civilians in the camp - which we had told them there were - does that mean they thought it was legitimate to shell a UN military headquarters?"

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/massacre-film-puts-israel-in-dock-1345897.html


Maniac, I can appreciate you trying to use logic as to why some of these shocking incidents may have occurred. But I think it's a pointless exercise. You operate in an Army that generally tries to adhere to the rules of engagement and the Geneva Convention. The IDF are a rogue army that operates outside the rules of war. So I think there is no point in trying to rationalise their brutal actions. Throughout their various military crusades, they have consistently shown that they have no regard for the lives of UN personnel, or especially the lives of innocent Palestinian/Lebaneese civilians.

And this morning I awoke to the news, that another UN compound sheltering civilians was hit. Ten more innocent civilians were killed and 35 wounded. The IDF were conducting strikes in the area and UN staff on the scene & eye witnesses have blamed them. The UNRWA spokesman Christopher Guinness, said earlier that they always give the IDF specific coordinates of their buildings. He also strongly emphasised that they always notify the IDF well in advance. Regarding the movements of all their UN vehicles and the areas they will be operating in. Unfortunately that didn't save Dr Bashir al-Hajjar, who was travelling in a UN vehicle when he was blown apart. You know, sometimes we just have to call a spade a spade. Sadly the brutal & savage behaviour of the IDF, has repeatedly spoken for itself down the years and continues to do so today. As far as a lot of people are concerned, they ran out of excuses a long, long time ago.

[URL="Israel-Gaza conflict: John Kerry’s phone calls ‘tapped by Israeli government’ while he mediated Middle East peace talks"]Israel-Gaza conflict: John Kerry’s phone calls ‘tapped by Israeli government’ while he mediated Middle East peace talks[/URL]

More evidence of Netanyahu's regime not negotiating in good faith. The Obama admin has let Netanyahu walk all over Kerry, and has allowed Netanyahu to disrespect his envoy on multiple occasion. It seem that Obama is just completely spineless in this regard.

shewasdiesel wrote: »

I doubt some Zionist supremacist junior officer gives a shyte what his immediate superiors think, as he'll be protected by contacts elsewhere, and the PR guy will be along on TV to cover up whatever he does.

Much like his junior Hamas commander counterpart equally hell bent on atrocity.

Only it's not atrocity to them. It's patriotism and defence.

KahBoom wrote: »

The main target of the Hamas missiles isn't really the Israeli people, but the Israeli economy - and they are effective in this regard - everything/everyone, businesses and all, have to stop when a rocket is incoming, and people need to seek shelter, which has a measurable effect in disrupting the Israeli economy.

Good article on it here:
http://www.harrowell.org.uk/blog/2014/07/25/wild-speculation-on-a-highly-controversial-subject/

Very interesting article. On a superficial reading and based on previous posts I'm led to believe that 90% efficiency actually pertains to the times when it is deemed necessary to fire an interceptor as the incoming missiles trajectory is deemed to have a high risk of landing in a highly densely populated area. However having said that I'm not so sure because 10% is a substantial risk.

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Jesus, A lad on "This Week" saying you can't believe what the UN says as they collaborate with Hamas by letting them use 3 schools to store rockets. Are these people deluded ? It was in relation to a question about civilian deaths. And then saying Israel's figures are the right ones.....

I heard an israeli spokesman say something similar this morning on this week, it could have been the same.

The language used is just so slimey, he was interchanging UNRWA admitting, with Israel exposing UNRWA

Tuisceanch wrote: »

Sorry I'm still trying to get my head around the Iron Dome statistics and so I wish you good luck trying to make sense of that conundrum.:)

I give up on my task. There's no point trying to make sense of these statistics.

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Jesus, A lad on "This Week" saying you can't believe what the UN says as they collaborate with Hamas by letting them use 3 schools to store rockets. Are these people deluded ? It was in relation to a question about civilian deaths. And then saying Israel's figures are the right ones.....

The unfortunate thing is that the lies from the Israeli propagandists go unchallenged.
I'm very disappointed with our national broadcaster that all pay towards for allowing these lies to continually go unchallenged.

Why has RTE started to change how they report on the conflict? Starting with reports such as
http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0709/629478-gaza-israel/

Among the dead were at least three militants as well as ten children and seven women.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0708/629210-gaza-israel/

Air strikes on Gaza killed 23 people, including an eight-year-old child and two teenagers.

They have now stopped reporting on the deaths of children and infants. Even with journalists on the ground reporting the deaths of innocent children and sending some horrific images back, they are now all referred to as "people" as requested by whom?

http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0803/634895-gaza-israel/

In a statement, Mr Ban strongly condemned the shelling of the school in Rafah in southern Gaza that killed at least 10 civilians.

Last Wednesday, at least 15 Palestinians who sought refuge in a UN-run school in Jabalya refugee camp were killed during fighting.

However, we do know the name and age of the Israeli soldier killed by his own troops.

In Gaza, Israel intensified attacks in the area of Rafah along the border with Egypt, where 23-year-old officer Hadar Goldin was feared captured.