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Multi level Marketing Anyone involved?

2

Comments

  • #32
    WallyGUFC
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,060 ✭✭✭WallyGUFC


    Yeah, think it was 2 weeks ago a few of them were sent to this "big capital city", all expenses paid apparently, with lots of agents receiving fairly hefty prizes. Loads of people are being dragged in. They occasionally go on about how good the products are but for the most part, from what I've seen, it's more about the recruitment side of it. They keep going on about the wonderful friends they've made and how wonderful the company is. It's absolutely bizarre.

    Regarding having to get in early to make money, how does this work? A few of them I know are clearly making decent money having only recently gotten in on it, yet Forever Living has been going for years. How hasn't it collapsed yet?


  • #33
    Tombi!
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,689 ✭✭✭Tombi!


    I wish I could remember the link but someone on Boards posted a blog about a fella who worked at one.

    He described the "holidays" as more of an exercise in advertising to one another than an actual holidays.

    Even if you do make money, it's very doubtful that someone new to it will make money unless they're either very lucky or great at convincing people to signup/buy/whatever from them.

    As for the "Forever Living", it's not exactly a pyramid scheme I don't think but it seems to operate a lot like one.
    It's basically (from what I've read) you sign me up to work with you, then I can go off and sell stuff and that's that.

    I wouldn't recommend it.


  • #34
    bop1977
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,070 ✭✭✭bop1977


    So they use the trapezoid scheme.


  • #35
    Mr Slow
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,554 ✭✭✭Mr Slow


    Just for those that don't know, a pyramid scheme (which is illegal) is where people buy into an idea or concept, with MLM income is generated through sales of product, the margin normally paid to Advertisers etc is given back to the distributors, hence the promise of uncapped earnings etc.

    MLM is a legitimate business model with most companies regulated to operate in this country by the Direct Selling Association.

    The scam is that over 90% of people in MLM worldwide are not making money, not because of anything sinister but because there is an inherent difficulty in recruiting due to lack of understanding of the industry.

    'The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.' Wayne Dyer


  • #36
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 31,828 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Mr Slow wrote: »
    Just for those that don't know, a pyramid scheme (which is illegal) is where people buy into an idea or concept, with MLM income is generated through sales of product, the margin normally paid to Advertisers etc is given back to the distributors, hence the promise of uncapped earnings etc.

    MLM is a legitimate business model with most companies regulated to operate in this country by the Direct Selling Association.

    The scam is that over 90% of people in MLM worldwide are not making money, not because of anything sinister but because there is an inherent difficulty in recruiting due to lack of understanding of the industry.

    'The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.' Wayne Dyer
    Wow! That was a fast response there Mr Slow! :pac:

    As for the 90% not being able to recruit, well just like in a pyramid scheme, they just can't find any more mugs.


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  • #37
    KahBoom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 282 ✭✭KahBoom


    It's a form of pyramid scheme:
    Another criticism is that MLM has effectively outlived its usefulness as a legitimate business practice. The argument is that, in the time when America was a series of relatively small, isolated towns and rural areas not easily accessible to small companies, MLM was a useful way to let people know of and buy products or services. But the advent of internet commerce, with its ability to advertise and sell directly to consumers, has rendered that model obsolete. Thus, today, nearly all modern MLMs ostensibly sell vastly overpriced goods and services (if there even is a real product or service involved at all) as a thin cloak of legitimacy, while their members are driven to recruit even more people into the MLM, effectively turning these programs into pyramid schemes.

    Because of the encouraging of recruits to further recruit their competitors, some people have even gone so far as to say at best modern MLMs are nothing more than legalized pyramid schemes with one stating "Multi-level marketing companies have become an accepted and legally sanctioned form of pyramid scheme in the United States" while another states "Multi-Level Marketing, a form of Pyramid Scheme, is not necessarily fraudulent."
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-level_marketing#Criticism

    There may be legitimate uses of the MLM model, but by and large they are pyramid schemes.


  • #38
    Fr_Dougal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,166 ✭✭✭Fr_Dougal


    Mr Slow wrote: »
    Just for those that don't know, a pyramid scheme (which is illegal) is where people buy into an idea or concept, with MLM income is generated through sales of product, the margin normally paid to Advertisers etc is given back to the distributors, hence the promise of uncapped earnings etc.

    MLM is a legitimate business model with most companies regulated to operate in this country by the Direct Selling Association.

    The scam is that over 90% of people in MLM worldwide are not making money, not because of anything sinister but because there is an inherent difficulty in recruiting due to lack of understanding of the industry.

    'The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.' Wayne Dyer

    No, MLM is a scam.

    "What's in a name, that which we call a rose, by any other name would smell as sweet' Bill Shakespeare


  • #39
    Recondite49
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,004 ✭✭✭Recondite49


    ongarite wrote: »
    Stay the **** away!
    MLM is just a fancy name for pyramid schemes.

    It's seldom you see exactly the right advice in a thread been given so quickly and succinctly, nice one ongarite! :)


  • #40
    Recondite49
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,004 ✭✭✭Recondite49


    Even if there are legitimate schemes which I very doubt I lump LMP along with drop shipping and buying on consignment - it ultimately comes down to selling products you don't own and as such you can't do anything about poor quality or lack of availability.

    It seems a very common sense rule of starting up in business to me only to sell what you own...


  • #41
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,329 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Mr Slow wrote: »
    MLM is a legitimate business model with most companies regulated to operate in this country by the Direct Selling Association.
    Legitimate by the skin of its teeth.
    The scam is that over 90% of people in MLM worldwide are not making money, not because of anything sinister but because there is an inherent difficulty in recruiting due to lack of understanding of the industry.
    Not quite. The scam is that even if recruiting was no great difficulty, the ones who are the first into a market will always be the ones getting the most upward movement of money from new recruits. It's essentially a sustainable pyramid scheme.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



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  • #42
    Mr Slow
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,554 ✭✭✭Mr Slow


    Recondite49 wrote: »
    Even if there are legitimate schemes which I very doubt I lump LMP along with drop shipping and buying on consignment - it ultimately comes down to selling products you don't own and as such you can't do anything about poor quality or lack of availability.

    It seems a very common sense rule of starting up in business to me only to sell what you own...

    I had to buy the products from the company that I was involved in for resale, quality wasn't an issue as everything came with a money back guarantee. What you're describing is more like Affiliate Marketing no MLM
    Wibbs wrote: »
    Legitimate by the skin of its teeth.

    Face palm.
    Wibbs wrote: »
    Not quite. The scam is that even if recruiting was no great difficulty, the ones who are the first into a market will always be the ones getting the most upward movement of money from new recruits. It's essentially a sustainable pyramid scheme.

    The Marketing Plan works like this, if I am at top level I receive let's say 15% of the individual turnover of a new recruit, as that recruit progresses through the plan that percentage reduces to say 5% but I am also paid a percentage of those 3 levels below me as is that recruit. It makes sense to me because a new recruit has little experience and require a lot of time investment but as they develop their business and take more control they get paid more.

    I've no problem with anyone saying it's not for them, that's an opinion, but dismissing a multi-billion dollar worldwide regulated industry as a scam is frankly nuts.


  • #43
    Recondite49
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,004 ✭✭✭Recondite49


    Mr Slow wrote: »
    I had to buy the products from the company that I was involved in for resale, quality wasn't an issue as everything came with a money back guarantee. What you're describing is more like Affiliate Marketing no MLM

    Hm.

    The problem here Mr. Slow is that every vendor of flaky products who ever showed up on my doorstep has offered a money back guarantee.

    If anyone believes that, I have a fine bridge to sell them in Brooklyn, one careful owner. :-D


  • #44
    Recondite49
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,004 ✭✭✭Recondite49


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Sounds like she is actually climbing up the pyramid.

    I just don't understand why someone who employs good sales techniques would bother reselling another party's products on commission - I made the same point when speaking to some smug fools who worked for one of those door to door firms on Facebook the other day -you'd make more money pound for pound, knocking on doors offering to wash cars in pretty much every case.


  • #45
    Recondite49
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,004 ✭✭✭Recondite49


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Not quite. The scam is that even if recruiting was no great difficulty, the ones who are the first into a market will always be the ones getting the most upward movement of money from new recruits. It's essentially a sustainable pyramid scheme.

    Hi Wibbs,

    I think the pyramid is sustainable inasmuch as if the customers dug their heels in and refused to buy any more goods, or indeed those at the bottom of the pile refused to sell, no one would actually lose any money but those higher up would just keep on recruiting more warm bodies...


  • #46
    Cool Mo D
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,419 ✭✭✭Cool Mo D


    Mr Slow wrote: »
    I had to buy the products from the company that I was involved in for resale, quality wasn't an issue as everything came with a money back guarantee. What you're describing is more like Affiliate Marketing no MLM



    Face palm.



    The Marketing Plan works like this, if I am at top level I receive let's say 15% of the individual turnover of a new recruit, as that recruit progresses through the plan that percentage reduces to say 5% but I am also paid a percentage of those 3 levels below me as is that recruit. It makes sense to me because a new recruit has little experience and require a lot of time investment but as they develop their business and take more control they get paid more.

    I've no problem with anyone saying it's not for them, that's an opinion, but dismissing a multi-billion dollar worldwide regulated industry as a scam is frankly nuts.

    Of course it's a scam. MLM is a business model where the vast majority of people are guaranteed to lose money, to benefit a few people at the top of the heap. The actual products sold by MLM companies are a fig leaf to cover the pyramid scheme nature of the business.

    MLM relies on a constant parade of greedy suckers who are lured in by the promise of riches. When they inevitably end up loosing money, they are told they need to work harder, network better, and pay the MLM company for some motivational seminars or books while you're at it.


  • #47
    Robbo
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 10,636 Mod ✭✭✭✭Robbo


    Mr Slow wrote: »
    I've no problem with anyone saying it's not for them, that's an opinion, but dismissing a multi-billion dollar worldwide regulated industry as a scam is frankly nuts.
    And who might the Multi Level Marketing regulator be, were one to have some concerns?


  • #48
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,329 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Mr Slow wrote: »
    Face palm.
    Face palm all you like, but operators like Amway bypass the obvious pyramid schemes by the complex fee structures in place. Plus they can show some of their "independent business owners" do indeed make a living from it. The vast majority of recruits do not, but you'll never hear that at one of their "business meetings". Indeed in the case of Amway the company name is usually left out of things because of the dodgy rep it has garnered through the years.

    The Marketing Plan works like this, if I am at top level I receive let's say 15% of the individual turnover of a new recruit, as that recruit progresses through the plan that percentage reduces to say 5% but I am also paid a percentage of those 3 levels below me as is that recruit. It makes sense to me because a new recruit has little experience and require a lot of time investment but as they develop their business and take more control they get paid more.
    But the fact is the vast majority will never "take more control", so you need to keep bringing in more and more recruits. That's what it's all about. Getting new bodies through the door and selling them on the idea of expensive products, no middleman(which is utter BS, the middleman just goes elsewhere) and the biggest side business of all the motivational CD's books, DVD's, courses and all that guff. Every single amway recruit type I've known that didn't grow a clue and drop it at the early stages bought into a shedload of that motivational crap. That's where a large proportion of the money comes from for the top level guys, especially in a small market like Ireland where population uptake of new recruits tends to fizzle out fast.

    The other thing you note about amway if you've ever had much contact with it and you didn't swallow their bluepill dale carnegieite bullshít is that the products are secondary, it's all about getting more recruits into the scheme. That's the driver. The more recruits you can convince to come in and sell something, the top guys keep turning over their 11% or whatever while selling them the motivational material.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • #49
    UCDVet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,894 ✭✭✭UCDVet


    I think people are getting caught up on the idea of what constitutes a 'scam'.

    I don't see MLM as being much different than working for a traditional company. You have the same hierarchical structure in most companies and you can believe that your boss and your boss's boss and your boss's boss's boss are all making a lot more money than you, in part because they're taking a small amount out of everyone's value beneath them.

    I used to work at McDonald's. Horrible job for very little pay. If you run the numbers *most* people working at McDonald's get paid very little. But they have a few VERY successful business people running things who make millions of EUR/USD.

    Seems pretty similar to MLM to me.

    Most people who do it make virtually nothing. If you can claw your way up, get employees below you, you take a cut from them. If you can get high enough, you can make a LOT of money, while doing virtually no work. Just like a CEO who makes more in an hour than I make in a week. He/she isn't working HARDER than me, but they are higher up the chain.

    Some people would say they're both scams. Other people would say neither are scams. I can tell you, that when I was at McDonald's, they spent a lot of time telling us about how we could 'advance' into management. And they'd tell us about the guy who started making fries and got promoted and got promoted again and became a store manager (they make good money) and then became a regional manager and blah, blah, blah - now he's super rich. And it's true. Those people exist.

    But nearly everyone will just work a crap job, for crap pay, until they quit, get fired, or retire. And the people above them in the chain will continue to profit off their hard work.

    Such is life.

    The company I work for now is owned by six rich American guys. They don't do anything. They 'own' the company. None of them are involved in the operation of the company. They make more money than anyone doing work. Sounds like MLM isn't much different.


  • #50
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,329 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Oh sure UV and I'd agree. If you step back for a second a lot of what we do could be seen as just a little delusional alright. While most of us accept that if you're working for a big company you make more money for them than you get in pay and that the top guys make the most cash. Nature of the beast and that's fine. You wanna make the big boy cash, the strike out on your own and become a big boy. However I would say some of the more American based companies push a different ethos. The "American Dream"(tm)(c) all rights reserved ethos. Keeps the more impressionable drones who buy into that idea in order.

    The issue I have with your MLM amway types is they claim to be different, that you will be a "big boy" by following their scheme. The reality is you'll work for a lot less return than if you were in a cubicle pushing paper.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • #51
    Maphisto
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,014 ✭✭✭Maphisto


    Mr Slow wrote: »
    Just for those that don't know, a pyramid scheme (which is illegal) is where people buy into an idea or concept, with MLM income is generated through sales of product, the margin normally paid to Advertisers etc is given back to the distributors, hence the promise of uncapped earnings etc.

    MLM is a legitimate business model with most companies regulated to operate in this country by the Direct Selling Association.

    The scam is that over 90% of people in MLM worldwide are not making money, not because of anything sinister but because there is an inherent difficulty in recruiting due to lack of understanding of the industry.

    'The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.' Wayne Dyer

    Maybe they don't understand that by the time that the organisation is at its 14th level it needs more people than there currently are on the planet.


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  • #52
    Recondite49
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,004 ✭✭✭Recondite49


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Oh sure UV and I'd agree. If you step back for a second a lot of what we do could be seen as just a little delusional alright. While most of us accept that if you're working for a big company you make more money for them than you get in pay and that the top guys make the most cash. Nature of the beast and that's fine. You wanna make the big boy cash, the strike out on your own and become a big boy. However I would say some of the more American based companies push a different ethos. The "American Dream"(tm)(c) all rights reserved ethos. Keeps the more impressionable drones who buy into that idea in order.

    The issue I have with your MLM amway types is they claim to be different, that you will be a "big boy" by following their scheme. The reality is you'll work for a lot less return than if you were in a cubicle pushing paper.

    Hi Wibbs,

    I think the main difference would be that there is transparency for those people who start serving fries in McDonalds and that there's also a very good reason why the CEO earns more than the people who park the cars due to their respective tenure and skills.

    With MLM it really comes down to how ruthlessly you can exploit the next innocent sap then sit back and reap the benefits. For most people of course it's just a good way to lose £29.99 on the latest training video.


  • #53
    TGJD
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 432 ✭✭TGJD


    It wouldnt be so bad if the cobra affiliates didn't actively brainwash people and peddle so much ****. Everyone had to act super cheery and anyone seeming down was shunned. The manager trying to convince people how great it is at that level and everyone had the potential to be him. This guy claiming to make 4 grand a week, driving a 15yr old car, wearing pennys suits and living with 5 other people in a student house. Teaching people on the 2nd level to recruit people by convincing them they could get rich. It's all bull****, i saw people turn down paid jobs to keep chasing bull****. Guys there for 2 yrs, barely able to afford food and still thinking they will be rich even though the higher up guys still make **** all. Just avoid them. Or at most try for week or two just to see the bull**** in action.it is actually hilarious yet people buy into it.


  • #54
    KahBoom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 282 ✭✭KahBoom


    TGJD wrote: »
    It wouldnt be so bad if the cobra affiliates didn't actively brainwash people and peddle so much ****. Everyone had to act super cheery and anyone seeming down was shunned. The manager trying to convince people how great it is at that level and everyone had the potential to be him. This guy claiming to make 4 grand a week, driving a 15yr old car, wearing pennys suits and living with 5 other people in a student house. Teaching people on the 2nd level to recruit people by convincing them they could get rich. It's all bull****, i saw people turn down paid jobs to keep chasing bull****. Guys there for 2 yrs, barely able to afford food and still thinking they will be rich even though the higher up guys still make **** all. Just avoid them. Or at most try for week or two just to see the bull**** in action.it is actually hilarious yet people buy into it.
    Ya - it would be hilarious (and in ways it is), except that doing that kind of thing where it involves consciously deceiving people and wasting their labour/time/money like that, just for the deceiving persons benefit, is really a lowlife scumbag thing to do.


  • #55
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,329 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    KahBoom wrote: »
    Ya - it would be hilarious (and in ways it is), except that doing that kind of thing where it involves consciously deceiving people and wasting their labour/time/money like that, just for your own benefit, is really a lowlife scumbag thing to do.
    I would agree KB, except that most people I've met over the years involved in these schemes believed it themselves 100%. That includes the mid level guys in it for the longer haul barely scraping a pittance if you actually looked at the time, effort versus the money coming in. That's why it can work so well with many people, the easily led. The guys selling it bought into the BS. You have to go much further up the chain to meet the cynicism in my experience.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • #56
    KahBoom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 282 ✭✭KahBoom


    Wibbs wrote: »
    I would agree KB, except that most people I've met over the years involved in these schemes believed it themselves 100%. That includes the mid level guys in it for the longer haul barely scraping a pittance if you actually looked at the time, effort versus the money coming in. That's why it can work so well with many people, the easily led. The guys selling it bought into the BS. You have to go much further up the chain to meet the cynicism in my experience.
    That's probably true in a lot of cases - but I don't fully believe it myself, I'd say there are a lot of "willingly 'deceived'" people within the chain, playing along with the salesperson act/persona, hoping to make money off of others, knowing it is a scam.


  • #57
    Mince Pie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,901 ✭✭✭Mince Pie


    I've had "friends" try and recruit me for Forever Living and a new one, Body by Vi or something. Always politely decline but get the hard sell. They are evangelical about the stuff which for me is more scary than the actual pyramid scheme of it.


  • #58
    Recondite49
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,004 ✭✭✭Recondite49


    TGJD wrote: »
    It wouldnt be so bad if the cobra affiliates didn't actively brainwash people and peddle so much ****. Everyone had to act super cheery and anyone seeming down was shunned. The manager trying to convince people how great it is at that level and everyone had the potential to be him. This guy claiming to make 4 grand a week, driving a 15yr old car, wearing pennys suits and living with 5 other people in a student house. Teaching people on the 2nd level to recruit people by convincing them they could get rich. It's all bull****, i saw people turn down paid jobs to keep chasing bull****. Guys there for 2 yrs, barely able to afford food and still thinking they will be rich even though the higher up guys still make **** all. Just avoid them. Or at most try for week or two just to see the bull**** in action.it is actually hilarious yet people buy into it.


    Hi chief,

    Thanks for sharing your thoughts - I would be grateful if you could put your two cents in on the thread about door to door firms as I've been had by one in the past too:

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057259425


  • #59
    Banjo String
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,380 ✭✭✭✭Banjo String


    Mince Pie wrote: »
    I've had "friends" try and recruit me for Forever Living and a new one, Body by Vi or something. Always politely decline but get the hard sell. They are evangelical about the stuff which for me is more scary than the actual pyramid scheme of it.


    This .

    I got convinced to attend a seminar for forever living one n night by an in-law. Jesus it was scary how brain washed half the poor feckers were.

    I was called repeatedly to see if I was for signing up :D like you I repeatedly declined, later discovered they had asked all of my siblings too. (So who would I even have sold to :confused:)

    The people actually making money in forever living are the ones in it from day 1. Anyone else will be fleeced and hoodwinked imo.

    Big dirty pyramid scheme, no matter how hard they dispute that.


  • #60
    Mince Pie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,901 ✭✭✭Mince Pie


    Banjo String wrote: »
    This .

    I got convinced to attend a seminar for forever living one n night by an in-law. Jesus it was scary how brain washed half the poor feckers were.

    I was called repeatedly to see if I was for signing up :D like you I repeatedly declined, later discovered they had asked all of my siblings too. (So who would I even have sold to :confused:)

    The people actually making money in forever living are the ones in it from day 1. Anyone else will be fleeced and hoodwinked imo.

    Big dirty pyramid scheme, no matter how hard they dispute that.

    Oh they always dispute it! Over and over and over and over. Then go on and on about how its changed their life blah blah blah.
    Remove from friends list and stop replying is the only way to deal with it. I have no interest in joining a cult.


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  • #61
    The One Who Knocks
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,301 ✭✭✭The One Who Knocks


    Mince Pie wrote: »
    Oh they always dispute it! Over and over and over and over. Then go on and on about how its changed their life blah blah blah.
    Remove from friends list and stop replying is the only way to deal with it. I have no interest in joining a cult.

    Okay putting the whole pyramid scheme thing aside (which I too am strongly against) .. the actual product is great. I buy it directly just for personal use and I'd swear by it, but that's up to you and you're entitled to your own opinion.


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