Multi level Marketing Anyone involved?

Fratoue

Anyone here ever got involved in MLM?. Companies like Forever living products, Kleeneze, Amway etc?.

They really have a big recruitment drive with the current recession and have hyped up speeches off people making thousands, getting free holidays, cars etc.

Was wondering what are people's opinions on this companies and any experience of being involved?.

Bit dubious of some of their claims but seems some people can do well out of selling their over priced, aloe vera, cleaning products ****e.

ongarite

Stay the **** away!
MLM is just a fancy name for pyramid schemes.

uch

No Feck off!!!

starlit

Steer clear its a scam!

Ostrom

Reading something recently on one of these; '...a product so revolutionary and effective that shops won't stock it'

Outkast_IRE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4F4qzPbcFiA

Fratoue

Well the likes of Forever living products babble on about being in business for 35 years. Was at one of their information evening and everyone in the audience was like horny teenagers they were so enthusiastic clapping, smiling, agreeing with everything the old lad was saying as he recounted raking in thousands per month and how they could do it too. Of course they were all roped in already and like hungry sharks trying to get other people involved so they would be their 'sponsor' and get a percantage from them.

All the products were mainly over priced aloe vera stuff that can apparently cure and ail everything from cuts that disappear, burns that heal immediately and decade long cripping back pain that is healed over night from rubbing aloe vera gel on the person's back. These were forever living recruits who recounted stories and I'm quite perceptive so could tell easily enough that plenty of them were lying.

Seems a lot of people get involved in these things and would like to know if people have experience. Hopefully won't get shills from these companies telling us about their €5 million euro mansion and ferrari in the drive!:(

galwayrush

Stupid plans for stupid people.

CrazyRabbit

They suck. They promised me I'd earn €5000 for every 1000 useless posts I made on boards.ie. Haven't seen a penny yet.

Fratoue

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

They suck. They promised me I'd earn €5000 for every 1000 useless posts I made on boards.ie. Haven't seen a penny yet.

Well we know boards keep the dosh for themselves, would like to get relevant posts though!

Fratoue

Bump!

cathy01

No really BUMP please.
I have huge concerns about this. A family member has become involved, and things just don't seem right. Its not pyramid as you don't pay cash up front. You sell a product and recruit new people., to my knowledge.

I have been searching boards for answers. But cant find them.
Has anyone made a living out of this ?
Is it a bulling thing ?
Is it filled with lies.
Am I the only one that can see that this is praying on people who are broke and want to make some money.
I seen a ticket to a success day event been held for distributors only.
Ticket is non refundable. How much did it cost?
PLEASE GUYS ANSWER.
I'm genuinely worried about this family member.
I love them , but they seem to be brain washed.
I believe they have been turning down paid work(they are currently self employed ) to attend NETWORK meetings, which always happen at night.
NETWORK meetings should happen day and /or night , am I right.
IM REALLY WORRIED.
Advice even by pm please. Thanks cathy

ps Family member if your reading this, know I'm trying to understand .
You have one child and a baby on the way, paid secure employment is better then wishes and dreams.

A few years ago I came across "network marketing" (same beast different name).

From what I understood was that you were expected to recruit a "sales team" and act as their distributor, this is after you have already become a member of the "sales team" for the person who introduced you into the scheme.

You buy the products from your distributor and sell them on to your sales team or directly to the customer.
A percentage of the sale price is deducted by each level in the pyramid, the more members the smaller the cut for an individual sales person, but the more sales teams & distributors a senior distributor has, the bigger their share becomes (lots of individuals passing 1% up the chain accumulates quickly).

To make any meaningful amounts of money you need to be near the top of the pyramid with only a couple of distributors above you and a large number of distributors (& sales teams) below you.

Once I discovered how it worked, I walked!

Sofaspud

I had an interview with one of these places before, did a bit of reading up on the place, and cancelled straight away.

Most of them come under the parent company "Cobra Group" (It's like they're trying to sound like villains), and new companies keep popping up because people branch out and create their own franchise from whatever company they were hired by. So the "multi-level" part forms the shape of a pyramid. Funny, that.

They mostly seem to be based around door-to-door sales, but the salespeople aren't technically employees so they have to arrange their own taxes and jump through hoops because they're self-employed. This also means that whatever they earn is commission only, and they can end up working ridiculous hours for little or no pay.

All of this under the promise that they can earn more and start their own business, essentially by recruiting new members, whose earnings you then take a cut of.

Sofaspud

I linked an episode of Penn & Teller's bullsh!t but deleted it due to an overabundance of boobies.

Google "Bullshit easy money" and watch it on youtube, very informative.

naughtysmurf

The only one I know a bit about is Amway, from years ago.

Personally I don't really have an issue with most of their business model, which pretty much was , use some product, sell some product, show the business plan & encourage other people to become distributors also & encourage them to use some product, sell some product, show the business plan & encourage others to become distributors also & so on..., that's fine with me BUT this is the bit I didn't like,

You would think that the biggest thing that successful Amway distributors would be promoting would be the products & the business plan but NO, a huge amount of effort was spent promoting all the motivational books, tapes (probably CD's now) and events like 'Dream Weekends' etc so I suspect that a good chunk of the money that the successful distributors were making was from selling a lot of motivational books, tapes and events to the lower level distributors & not so much the products & services

coolhull

STAY AWAY!!! Further away the better!

P_1

They are trouble with a capitol T. Pretty comprehensive thread about them over in the Work & Jobs forum http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056051270

Lando Griffin

The difference between MLM and the typical pyramid schemes you normally come across is this example.
Pyramid scheme get 5 people to give Euro 1000 each total Euro 5000.
MLM Get 100 people to give 50 Euro each and cost you 200 Euro to become a distributor.
You get 5% which is kept in reserve for you by the company for at least 40 days.
If you become a recruiter of distributors it cost you another 1000 but the new distributor gives Euro200 which you get 5%, kept in reserve for 40 days.
You are only allowed withdraw maximum 25% of whats kept in reserve per month.
If you go under a certain level in your reserve you may loose recruiter rites.

Hope this clears these scams.
Hope this thread is not locked by the time I get this posted.:mad:

NuckingFacker

Years ago I was invited to join one of these MLM schticks as I was "such a talented salesman"(news to me, but whatever). I discovered that it involved interacting with enthusiatic eejits and selling stuff to the public, both of which I despise. I decided to jack it in pronto, which caused much consternation and cultishness with my "team", happily, not two shytes did I give and told them to jam it up their jacksie. My take is that they brain-wash people with tales of riches and endless possibilities while selling crap and or crap products to the public using wear-em down techniques. Avoid, would be my verdict. Especially the enthusiastic people bit. I also don't understand the figures in the post above. They appear to be arseways, but that might be the general idea.

A fairly decent video (one of many) showing how the scam works

Hilly Bill

Its a pyramid scam and nothing more. The more you recruit the more money you make and so on. You make money on how many you recruit and how much they then get onboard and so on. You make very little on the actual products.
Its handier to make a few quid with the likes of Kleeneazy and Betterware. You deliver the books and then collect them. You get about 10% or so out of very order you put in to your supervisor and they will get a percentage of all the orders they get in etc. You wont make loads and its a lot of work for the return buts its a few quid extra all the same.

Akrasia

First of all, let me assure you that this is not one of those shady pyramid schemes you've been hearing about, Our model is the Trapezoid....

WallyGUFC

Don't like dragging up old threads but over the last few weeks, my Facebook timeline has been absolutely polluted by gym-heads promoting Forever Living and trying to hire sales agents. Anybody else getting this?
Did some searching and it seems to be a very dodgy business model. No doubt Aloe Vera has numerous benefits, but the same products pretty much can be bought on the high street for fractions of the price. Some of the people promoting it have even bragged about the fact that it's a pyramid, but promise that it's "different". Can't really believe are so naive.

WallyGUFC

WallyGUFC wrote: »

Don't like dragging up old threads but over the last few weeks, my Facebook timeline has been absolutely polluted by gym-heads promoting Forever Living and trying to hire sales agents. Anybody else getting this?
Did some searching and it seems to be a very dodgy business model. No doubt Aloe Vera has numerous benefits, but the same products pretty much can be bought on the high street for fractions of the price. Some of the people promoting it have even bragged about the fact that it's a pyramid, but promise that it's "different". Can't really believe are so naive.

Don't worry about warning against pyramid selling, the more often these warnings appear, the less chance there is of people being suckered into them!

LETHAL LADY

I've a friend involved with this crap at the moment. She is making a few bob out of it and getting to travel, but I see it as some Jim Jones type cult meself.

Shakespeare's Sister

Are they all dodge though? Herbalife seems pretty legit.

LETHAL LADY

LETHAL LADY wrote: »

I've a friend involved with this crap at the moment. She is making a few bob out of it and getting to travel, but I see it as some Jim Jones type cult meself.

If she is making any money out of it, I can only assume that she got into it at a fairly early stage as that is where the real money is made.

LETHAL LADY

Deleted User wrote: »

If she is making any money out of it, I can only assume that she got into it at a fairly early stage as that is where the real money is made.

Well she is making a living out of it and has recently had an all expenses trip to one of the big capital cities (don't want to say where in case she is a boardsie and figures me out). The hard sell techniques she uses are unbelievable.:)

Andy-Pandy

I had a friend try and get me into this, it was some magic potion that could cure all Ills. I had to listen to an hour of obvious sh1te talk, in a previous working life I was an excellent salesman and saw through straight away. Had a few words with my friend pointing out the obvious bullsh1tery of the scheme, luckily he listened and backed away.

LETHAL LADY

LETHAL LADY wrote: »

Well she is making a living out of it and has recently had an all expenses trip to one of the big capitals cities (don't want to say where in case she is a boardsie and figures me out). The hard sell techniques she uses are unbelievable.:)

Sounds like she is actually climbing up the pyramid.

WallyGUFC

Yeah, think it was 2 weeks ago a few of them were sent to this "big capital city", all expenses paid apparently, with lots of agents receiving fairly hefty prizes. Loads of people are being dragged in. They occasionally go on about how good the products are but for the most part, from what I've seen, it's more about the recruitment side of it. They keep going on about the wonderful friends they've made and how wonderful the company is. It's absolutely bizarre.

Regarding having to get in early to make money, how does this work? A few of them I know are clearly making decent money having only recently gotten in on it, yet Forever Living has been going for years. How hasn't it collapsed yet?

Tombi!

I wish I could remember the link but someone on Boards posted a blog about a fella who worked at one.

He described the "holidays" as more of an exercise in advertising to one another than an actual holidays.

Even if you do make money, it's very doubtful that someone new to it will make money unless they're either very lucky or great at convincing people to signup/buy/whatever from them.

As for the "Forever Living", it's not exactly a pyramid scheme I don't think but it seems to operate a lot like one.
It's basically (from what I've read) you sign me up to work with you, then I can go off and sell stuff and that's that.

I wouldn't recommend it.

bop1977

So they use the trapezoid scheme.

Mr Slow

Just for those that don't know, a pyramid scheme (which is illegal) is where people buy into an idea or concept, with MLM income is generated through sales of product, the margin normally paid to Advertisers etc is given back to the distributors, hence the promise of uncapped earnings etc.

MLM is a legitimate business model with most companies regulated to operate in this country by the Direct Selling Association.

The scam is that over 90% of people in MLM worldwide are not making money, not because of anything sinister but because there is an inherent difficulty in recruiting due to lack of understanding of the industry.

'The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.' Wayne Dyer

Mr Slow

Mr Slow wrote: »

Just for those that don't know, a pyramid scheme (which is illegal) is where people buy into an idea or concept, with MLM income is generated through sales of product, the margin normally paid to Advertisers etc is given back to the distributors, hence the promise of uncapped earnings etc.

MLM is a legitimate business model with most companies regulated to operate in this country by the Direct Selling Association.

The scam is that over 90% of people in MLM worldwide are not making money, not because of anything sinister but because there is an inherent difficulty in recruiting due to lack of understanding of the industry.

'The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.' Wayne Dyer

Wow! That was a fast response there Mr Slow! :pac:

As for the 90% not being able to recruit, well just like in a pyramid scheme, they just can't find any more mugs.

KahBoom

It's a form of pyramid scheme:

Another criticism is that MLM has effectively outlived its usefulness as a legitimate business practice. The argument is that, in the time when America was a series of relatively small, isolated towns and rural areas not easily accessible to small companies, MLM was a useful way to let people know of and buy products or services. But the advent of internet commerce, with its ability to advertise and sell directly to consumers, has rendered that model obsolete. Thus, today, nearly all modern MLMs ostensibly sell vastly overpriced goods and services (if there even is a real product or service involved at all) as a thin cloak of legitimacy, while their members are driven to recruit even more people into the MLM, effectively turning these programs into pyramid schemes.

Because of the encouraging of recruits to further recruit their competitors, some people have even gone so far as to say at best modern MLMs are nothing more than legalized pyramid schemes with one stating "Multi-level marketing companies have become an accepted and legally sanctioned form of pyramid scheme in the United States" while another states "Multi-Level Marketing, a form of Pyramid Scheme, is not necessarily fraudulent."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-level_marketing#Criticism

There may be legitimate uses of the MLM model, but by and large they are pyramid schemes.

Fr_Dougal

Mr Slow wrote: »

Just for those that don't know, a pyramid scheme (which is illegal) is where people buy into an idea or concept, with MLM income is generated through sales of product, the margin normally paid to Advertisers etc is given back to the distributors, hence the promise of uncapped earnings etc.

MLM is a legitimate business model with most companies regulated to operate in this country by the Direct Selling Association.

The scam is that over 90% of people in MLM worldwide are not making money, not because of anything sinister but because there is an inherent difficulty in recruiting due to lack of understanding of the industry.

'The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.' Wayne Dyer

No, MLM is a scam.

"What's in a name, that which we call a rose, by any other name would smell as sweet' Bill Shakespeare

Recondite49

ongarite wrote: »

Stay the **** away!
MLM is just a fancy name for pyramid schemes.

It's seldom you see exactly the right advice in a thread been given so quickly and succinctly, nice one ongarite!

Recondite49

Even if there are legitimate schemes which I very doubt I lump LMP along with drop shipping and buying on consignment - it ultimately comes down to selling products you don't own and as such you can't do anything about poor quality or lack of availability.

It seems a very common sense rule of starting up in business to me only to sell what you own...

Wibbs

Mr Slow wrote: »

MLM is a legitimate business model with most companies regulated to operate in this country by the Direct Selling Association.

Legitimate by the skin of its teeth.

The scam is that over 90% of people in MLM worldwide are not making money, not because of anything sinister but because there is an inherent difficulty in recruiting due to lack of understanding of the industry.

Not quite. The scam is that even if recruiting was no great difficulty, the ones who are the first into a market will always be the ones getting the most upward movement of money from new recruits. It's essentially a sustainable pyramid scheme.

Mr Slow

Recondite49 wrote: »

Even if there are legitimate schemes which I very doubt I lump LMP along with drop shipping and buying on consignment - it ultimately comes down to selling products you don't own and as such you can't do anything about poor quality or lack of availability.

It seems a very common sense rule of starting up in business to me only to sell what you own...

I had to buy the products from the company that I was involved in for resale, quality wasn't an issue as everything came with a money back guarantee. What you're describing is more like Affiliate Marketing no MLM

Wibbs wrote: »

Legitimate by the skin of its teeth.

Face palm.

Wibbs wrote: »

Not quite. The scam is that even if recruiting was no great difficulty, the ones who are the first into a market will always be the ones getting the most upward movement of money from new recruits. It's essentially a sustainable pyramid scheme.

The Marketing Plan works like this, if I am at top level I receive let's say 15% of the individual turnover of a new recruit, as that recruit progresses through the plan that percentage reduces to say 5% but I am also paid a percentage of those 3 levels below me as is that recruit. It makes sense to me because a new recruit has little experience and require a lot of time investment but as they develop their business and take more control they get paid more.

I've no problem with anyone saying it's not for them, that's an opinion, but dismissing a multi-billion dollar worldwide regulated industry as a scam is frankly nuts.

Recondite49

Mr Slow wrote: »

I had to buy the products from the company that I was involved in for resale, quality wasn't an issue as everything came with a money back guarantee. What you're describing is more like Affiliate Marketing no MLM

Hm.

The problem here Mr. Slow is that every vendor of flaky products who ever showed up on my doorstep has offered a money back guarantee.

If anyone believes that, I have a fine bridge to sell them in Brooklyn, one careful owner. :-D

Recondite49

Deleted User wrote: »

Sounds like she is actually climbing up the pyramid.

I just don't understand why someone who employs good sales techniques would bother reselling another party's products on commission - I made the same point when speaking to some smug fools who worked for one of those door to door firms on Facebook the other day -you'd make more money pound for pound, knocking on doors offering to wash cars in pretty much every case.

Recondite49

Wibbs wrote: »

Not quite. The scam is that even if recruiting was no great difficulty, the ones who are the first into a market will always be the ones getting the most upward movement of money from new recruits. It's essentially a sustainable pyramid scheme.

Hi Wibbs,

I think the pyramid is sustainable inasmuch as if the customers dug their heels in and refused to buy any more goods, or indeed those at the bottom of the pile refused to sell, no one would actually lose any money but those higher up would just keep on recruiting more warm bodies...

Cool Mo D

Mr Slow wrote: »

I had to buy the products from the company that I was involved in for resale, quality wasn't an issue as everything came with a money back guarantee. What you're describing is more like Affiliate Marketing no MLM



Face palm.



The Marketing Plan works like this, if I am at top level I receive let's say 15% of the individual turnover of a new recruit, as that recruit progresses through the plan that percentage reduces to say 5% but I am also paid a percentage of those 3 levels below me as is that recruit. It makes sense to me because a new recruit has little experience and require a lot of time investment but as they develop their business and take more control they get paid more.

I've no problem with anyone saying it's not for them, that's an opinion, but dismissing a multi-billion dollar worldwide regulated industry as a scam is frankly nuts.

Of course it's a scam. MLM is a business model where the vast majority of people are guaranteed to lose money, to benefit a few people at the top of the heap. The actual products sold by MLM companies are a fig leaf to cover the pyramid scheme nature of the business.

MLM relies on a constant parade of greedy suckers who are lured in by the promise of riches. When they inevitably end up loosing money, they are told they need to work harder, network better, and pay the MLM company for some motivational seminars or books while you're at it.

Robbo

Mr Slow wrote: »

I've no problem with anyone saying it's not for them, that's an opinion, but dismissing a multi-billion dollar worldwide regulated industry as a scam is frankly nuts.

And who might the Multi Level Marketing regulator be, were one to have some concerns?

Wibbs

Mr Slow wrote: »

Face palm.

Face palm all you like, but operators like Amway bypass the obvious pyramid schemes by the complex fee structures in place. Plus they can show some of their "independent business owners" do indeed make a living from it. The vast majority of recruits do not, but you'll never hear that at one of their "business meetings". Indeed in the case of Amway the company name is usually left out of things because of the dodgy rep it has garnered through the years.

The Marketing Plan works like this, if I am at top level I receive let's say 15% of the individual turnover of a new recruit, as that recruit progresses through the plan that percentage reduces to say 5% but I am also paid a percentage of those 3 levels below me as is that recruit. It makes sense to me because a new recruit has little experience and require a lot of time investment but as they develop their business and take more control they get paid more.

But the fact is the vast majority will never "take more control", so you need to keep bringing in more and more recruits. That's what it's all about. Getting new bodies through the door and selling them on the idea of expensive products, no middleman(which is utter BS, the middleman just goes elsewhere) and the biggest side business of all the motivational CD's books, DVD's, courses and all that guff. Every single amway recruit type I've known that didn't grow a clue and drop it at the early stages bought into a shedload of that motivational crap. That's where a large proportion of the money comes from for the top level guys, especially in a small market like Ireland where population uptake of new recruits tends to fizzle out fast.

The other thing you note about amway if you've ever had much contact with it and you didn't swallow their bluepill dale carnegieite bullshít is that the products are secondary, it's all about getting more recruits into the scheme. That's the driver. The more recruits you can convince to come in and sell something, the top guys keep turning over their 11% or whatever while selling them the motivational material.

UCDVet

I think people are getting caught up on the idea of what constitutes a 'scam'.

I don't see MLM as being much different than working for a traditional company. You have the same hierarchical structure in most companies and you can believe that your boss and your boss's boss and your boss's boss's boss are all making a lot more money than you, in part because they're taking a small amount out of everyone's value beneath them.

I used to work at McDonald's. Horrible job for very little pay. If you run the numbers *most* people working at McDonald's get paid very little. But they have a few VERY successful business people running things who make millions of EUR/USD.

Seems pretty similar to MLM to me.

Most people who do it make virtually nothing. If you can claw your way up, get employees below you, you take a cut from them. If you can get high enough, you can make a LOT of money, while doing virtually no work. Just like a CEO who makes more in an hour than I make in a week. He/she isn't working HARDER than me, but they are higher up the chain.

Some people would say they're both scams. Other people would say neither are scams. I can tell you, that when I was at McDonald's, they spent a lot of time telling us about how we could 'advance' into management. And they'd tell us about the guy who started making fries and got promoted and got promoted again and became a store manager (they make good money) and then became a regional manager and blah, blah, blah - now he's super rich. And it's true. Those people exist.

But nearly everyone will just work a crap job, for crap pay, until they quit, get fired, or retire. And the people above them in the chain will continue to profit off their hard work.

Such is life.

The company I work for now is owned by six rich American guys. They don't do anything. They 'own' the company. None of them are involved in the operation of the company. They make more money than anyone doing work. Sounds like MLM isn't much different.

Wibbs

Oh sure UV and I'd agree. If you step back for a second a lot of what we do could be seen as just a little delusional alright. While most of us accept that if you're working for a big company you make more money for them than you get in pay and that the top guys make the most cash. Nature of the beast and that's fine. You wanna make the big boy cash, the strike out on your own and become a big boy. However I would say some of the more American based companies push a different ethos. The "American Dream"(tm)(c) all rights reserved ethos. Keeps the more impressionable drones who buy into that idea in order.

The issue I have with your MLM amway types is they claim to be different, that you will be a "big boy" by following their scheme. The reality is you'll work for a lot less return than if you were in a cubicle pushing paper.

Maphisto

Mr Slow wrote: »

Just for those that don't know, a pyramid scheme (which is illegal) is where people buy into an idea or concept, with MLM income is generated through sales of product, the margin normally paid to Advertisers etc is given back to the distributors, hence the promise of uncapped earnings etc.

MLM is a legitimate business model with most companies regulated to operate in this country by the Direct Selling Association.

The scam is that over 90% of people in MLM worldwide are not making money, not because of anything sinister but because there is an inherent difficulty in recruiting due to lack of understanding of the industry.

'The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.' Wayne Dyer

Maybe they don't understand that by the time that the organisation is at its 14th level it needs more people than there currently are on the planet.