Managing Fatigue

ShivasIrons · 31-07-2014 10:04PM

First Up wrote: »

There are better sources of information than a guy flogging a stepping gadget on an Infomercial.

I'm not decrying sprinting - it has its place and I've done plenty of it as part of training for racing distances between 200m and 1500m. However it does not contribute much in a thread about managing fatigue in golf.

Actually there's not many better sources of information on training for golf then Dr. Mark Smith the guy in the infomercial. I put up the link as not having much time to answer the thread earlier.

As for sprinting not belonging in a thread about managing fatigue, increasing cardio vascular capacity will help manage fatigue. The most efficient way to do this is with sprint interval training, whether it's on a bike, threadmill, sprinting or on a stepper for an infomercial. There's plenty of research to show 5 minutes of this has the same or more benefits of jogging for 30 minutes or more.

Here's a link to the start of a paper by Mark Smith.

http://thejagr.com/issue/issue-1-spring-2011/article/sprint-interval-training-it-s-a-hiit

First Up · 01-08-2014 08:47AM

ShivasIrons wrote: »

Actually there's not many better sources of information on training for golf then Dr. Mark Smith the guy in the infomercial. I put up the link as not having much time to answer the thread earlier.

As for sprinting not belonging in a thread about managing fatigue, increasing cardio vascular capacity will help manage fatigue. The most efficient way to do this is with sprint interval training, whether it's on a bike, threadmill, sprinting or on a stepper for an infomercial. There's plenty of research to show 5 minutes of this has the same or more benefits of jogging for 30 minutes or more.

Here's a link to the start of a paper by Mark Smith.

http://thejagr.com/issue/issue-1-spring-2011/article/sprint-interval-training-it-s-a-hiit

I have no objection to sprinting as part of a fitness regime but presenting it as the basis for managing fatigue in golf is simplistic and downright dangerous.

"Fit" derives from "fit for purpose". The fundamental principle behind all training programmes is to prepare the body for the specific sport of the trainee. If we are just advocating "fitness" for otherwise sedentary people, then a brisk walk or a slow jog will contribute an improvement. If we are talking about "fitness" as it applies to athletic performance (including golf), then the programme has to be tailored to the demands of the event. The science behind that is well established - as seen is the drastically different training regimes for 100 meter sprinters and 10,000 meter runners as an illustration.

The best training for spending four to five hours on your feet, is to spend long periods of time on your feet. That is true for golf and for running marathons. Are you suggesting short sprints as the basis for marathon training too?

The other big problem I have with this advice is that sprinting is a demanding activity and cannot and should not be seen in isolation. I would only advise sprinting to someone who is already fairly fit and whose muscles and ligaments are able for the stress. Many golfers (I suspect including most of those who get tired after 15 holes) are in the 30's,40's, 50's and beyond. Advising them to go out and start sprinting is a recipe for injury and maybe worse and in my view constitutes highly irresponsible advice.

shaneon77 · 01-08-2014 01:11PM

A flask of strong coffee for each and every round.

Felexicon · 01-08-2014 04:45PM

Cheers for the replies lads.

So all I need to do is drink 2 liters of water and eat a chicken sambo, a half dozen nature valley bars, a couple of bananas and a bar or two of chocolate.

All this as well as making sure I keep the round under 3 hours so I don't get named and shamed in the slow play thread.

Should be grand.

*seriously though, cheers for the pointers

ShivasIrons · 04-08-2014 10:23PM

First Up wrote: »

I have no objection to sprinting as part of a fitness regime but presenting it as the basis for managing fatigue in golf is simplistic and downright dangerous.

"Fit" derives from "fit for purpose". The fundamental principle behind all training programmes is to prepare the body for the specific sport of the trainee. If we are just advocating "fitness" for otherwise sedentary people, then a brisk walk or a slow jog will contribute an improvement. If we are talking about "fitness" as it applies to athletic performance (including golf), then the programme has to be tailored to the demands of the event. The science behind that is well established - as seen is the drastically different training regimes for 100 meter sprinters and 10,000 meter runners as an illustration.

The best training for spending four to five hours on your feet, is to spend long periods of time on your feet. That is true for golf and for running marathons. Are you suggesting short sprints as the basis for marathon training too?

The other big problem I have with this advice is that sprinting is a demanding activity and cannot and should not be seen in isolation. I would only advise sprinting to someone who is already fairly fit and whose muscles and ligaments are able for the stress. Many golfers (I suspect including most of those who get tired after 15 holes) are in the 30's,40's, 50's and beyond. Advising them to go out and start sprinting is a recipe for injury and maybe worse and in my view constitutes highly irresponsible advice.

I didn't present sprinting as the basis for managing fatigue in the golf swing. I said it was the best cardio vascular exercise for golf. This would also include sprint intervals on a bike or other equipment. I didn't say that everyone should start sprinting immediately for their golf fitness program, naturally every program should be tailored for the individual.

The golf swing is a dynamic, complex, fast, ballistic movement. It takes less then 2 seconds, it's nothing like running a marathon. In fact it's much closer to olympic lifting, which is also a dynamic, fast, ballistic, complex movement. It's a great exercise for golfers, but there's no way a golfer should olympic lift without going through extensive training.

There's is no elite golfer training like a marathon runner. Who would you prefer to hit a golf ball? Usain Bolt or Rob Heffernan? Elite golfers are training much closer to sprinters then marathon runners. Most golfers have no problem spending 4 hours on their feet, the golf swing can take a quite a bit out of a person. Which is harder walking for 30 minutes or hitting balls for 30 minutes? You train for the golf swing, not the walking.

the greatest game · 04-08-2014 10:29PM

Monster Engery drink for me..

I started using a fancy push trolly for a couple of months, I ditched it about 2 months ago, an awful energy drainer..back to electric..

FixdePitchmark · 04-08-2014 11:00PM

the greatest game wrote: »

Monster Engery drink for me..

I started using a fancy push trolly for a couple of months, I ditched it about 2 months ago, an awful energy drainer..back to electric..

I've a push trolley.

Feel it keeps me fit . So is that not an ironic fatigue avoider ?

First Up · 05-08-2014 09:03AM

ShivasIrons wrote: »

I didn't present sprinting as the basis for managing fatigue in the golf swing. I said it was the best cardio vascular exercise for golf. This would also include sprint intervals on a bike or other equipment. I didn't say that everyone should start sprinting immediately for their golf fitness program, naturally every program should be tailored for the individual.

The golf swing is a dynamic, complex, fast, ballistic movement. It takes less then 2 seconds, it's nothing like running a marathon. In fact it's much closer to olympic lifting, which is also a dynamic, fast, ballistic, complex movement. It's a great exercise for golfers, but there's no way a golfer should olympic lift without going through extensive training.

There's is no elite golfer training like a marathon runner. Who would you prefer to hit a golf ball? Usain Bolt or Rob Heffernan? Elite golfers are training much closer to sprinters then marathon runners. Most golfers have no problem spending 4 hours on their feet, the golf swing can take a quite a bit out of a person. Which is harder walking for 30 minutes or hitting balls for 30 minutes? You train for the golf swing, not the walking.

You train for both but I would be prepared to bet that the OP's question/problem related to the walking more than the swing.

I had an interesting conversation with Padraig Harrington a few years ago when we were both using the UCD gym. He was doing small weights for wrist/arm strength. I asked him about it and he said he had a very specific programme designed for strength hitting from thick rough.

But he spent most of the gym session doing steady pace running - not sprinting. But then, he probably hadn't seen the infomercial.

PARlance · 05-08-2014 09:21AM

I get tired of playing bad golf...

I would say the average club golf gets "fatigued" due to bad golf moreso than their diet or (lack of) training regime.

80% mental, 20% physical in my eyes.
I've never seen a guy being dragged off the 18th with 44 points

ForeRight · 05-08-2014 09:24AM

PARlance wrote: »

I get tired of playing bad golf...

I would say the average club golf gets "fatigued" due to bad golf moreso than their diet or (lack of) training regime.

80% mental, 20% physical in my eyes.
I've never seen a guy being dragged off the 18th with 44 points

Couldn't agree more.

When I'm playing well I'm buzzing, feel great leaving the 18th and want to play another 18.

When playing bad I feel lethargic and want to just finish up

Dr_Colossus · 05-08-2014 10:27AM

PARlance wrote: »

I get tired of playing bad golf...

I would say the average club golf gets "fatigued" due to bad golf moreso than their diet or (lack of) training regime.

80% mental, 20% physical in my eyes.
I've never seen a guy being dragged off the 18th with 44 points

True but in the case above he should be dragged off by the bandit police for questioning after scoring such a disproportionate round. 40 points would be an exceedingly good round but all too frequently it no longer features due to the generosity of some handicaps.

FixdePitchmark · 05-08-2014 11:19AM

There is no way you should be "fatigued" . During a round of golf.

If you are get fitter. Or play more.

GreeBo · 05-08-2014 11:27AM

PARlance wrote: »

I get tired of playing bad golf...

I would say the average club golf gets "fatigued" due to bad golf moreso than their diet or (lack of) training regime.

80% mental, 20% physical in my eyes.
I've never seen a guy being dragged off the 18th with 44 points

Thats because tired golfers never shoot 44 points!

PARlance · 05-08-2014 01:52PM

GreeBo wrote: »

Thats because tired golfers never shoot 44 points!

Nah, I'd certainly look at it the other way around.
Fitness helps, getting fitter is only a good thing obv but in general a lot of fatigue is caused by bad golf. Not the other way around imo.

On a similar note, I've never met someone that has hit a great shot and proclaim their luck because their concentration levels weren't what they should have been

Nothing like a bad strike to retrofit a concentration problem.

We (I) love/need our excuses

yettie1701 · 05-08-2014 06:45PM

GreeBo wrote: »

Bananas!

Ok, and granola bars.

But don't try to stuff the last bit of one into your mouth before you hit...recipe for an woeful shot.

Try a mouthful if dentures and a granola bar before a shot. Bad bad idea. A great way to scratch a hole for sure. Bananas great for sure. Lots of uisce too I find that helps. Just keep sipping the whole way round.

SaveOurLyric · 05-08-2014 11:08PM

Not sure that you should be feeling any fatigue after the relatively mild exertion of 15 holes of golf. Possible an underlying health issue ? Or is it just lately in the hot weather ? Rehydration is important if you are perspiring, although some research suggests the reduction in cognitive-motor function performance is linked more with a centrally mediated mechanism of thirst perception rather than the actual loss of water. Either way - if you feel you need a drink, have one !

PARlance · 05-08-2014 11:31PM

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

the reduction in cognitive-motor function performance

That's what it was, had 4 of them the last day myself (scratches)

First Up · 06-08-2014 12:18PM

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

Not sure that you should be feeling any fatigue after the relatively mild exertion of 15 holes of golf. Possible an underlying health issue ? Or is it just lately in the hot weather ? Rehydration is important if you are perspiring, although some research suggests the reduction in cognitive-motor function performance is linked more with a centrally mediated mechanism of thirst perception rather

than the actual loss of water. Either way - if you feel you need a drink, have one !

Sometimes I feel the need for a drink after a round. A stiff one at that.

yettie1701 · 06-08-2014 05:54PM

PARlance wrote: »

That's what it was, had 4 of them the last day myself (scratches)

Classic

ShivasIrons · 08-08-2014 02:25PM

First Up wrote: »

You train for both but I would be prepared to bet that the OP's question/problem related to the walking more than the swing.

I had an interesting conversation with Padraig Harrington a few years ago when we were both using the UCD gym. He was doing small weights for wrist/arm strength. I asked him about it and he said he had a very specific programme designed for strength hitting from thick rough.

But he spent most of the gym session doing steady pace running - not sprinting. But then, he probably hadn't seen the infomercial.

Would you think that Harrington has the same gym routine now as he had a few years ago? If you ask him now about sprint interval training he would know all about it.

If you asked any golfer to walk 6 or 7 miles over the course of 3-4 hours they would have no problem doing it, the swing part of golf uses up a lot of energy. It's swinging the golf club is the main cause of tiredness at the end of the round.

First Up · 08-08-2014 04:23PM

ShivasIrons wrote: »

Would you think that Harrington has the same gym routine now as he had a few years ago? If you ask him now about sprint interval training he would know all about it.

If you asked any golfer to walk 6 or 7 miles over the course of 3-4 hours they would have no problem doing it, the swing part of golf uses up a lot of energy. It's swinging the golf club is the main cause of tiredness at the end of the round.

Garbage

First Up · 08-08-2014 04:23PM

ShivasIrons wrote: »

Would you think that Harrington has the same gym routine now as he had a few years ago? If you ask him now about sprint interval training he would know all about it.

If you asked any golfer to walk 6 or 7 miles over the course of 3-4 hours they would have no problem doing it, the swing part of golf uses up a lot of energy. It's swinging the golf club is the main cause of tiredness at the end of the round.

Garbage

GreeBo · 08-08-2014 04:28PM

First Up wrote: »

Garbage

If you disagree with a post then explain why you do. If you can't backup your reasons for disagreeing other than to post a single, inflammatory remark, then please dont post at all.
Posting the same thing twice is not backing it up btw.

SaveOurLyric · 08-08-2014 05:04PM

I would concur with First Up's observation that ShivasIrons is mistaken.
For an typical course, playing 18 holes, carrying or pulling his clubs on a trolley, the average male uses 1200-1400kcal. Only 100-200kcal of that will be expended swinging a club depending on how many full shots and how many practice swishes he makes forehand.
The hackeriest of us probably dont hit more than 50 shots even when heading for a century at 3-4kcal per shot. Chips and putts consume almost nothing. Its the walking 5-7 miles with a load for about 2/3 of that that burns the energy.

First Up · 08-08-2014 07:33PM

The second post was in error. I didn't have time to elaborate earlier but couldn't let such nonsense pass.

A 7,000 yard course is about 4 miles and takes typically 4 hours to cover. The number of shots involving any exertion in that whole time is about 30-35. The rest are short irons and putts. The golf swing takes about two seconds to complete. So allowing for practice swings the accumulated effort over four hours adds up to about two or two and a half minutes of not especially vigorous movement, with 5 or so minutes interval between each one.

The OP admitted to getting tired after 15 holes or so - somewhere around 3 hours into the round. Now which is likely to have contributed the most to that fatigue - 3 hours of walking, pulling or pushing a trolley, or two minute's worth of swinging a piece of metal?

GreeBo · 08-08-2014 07:47PM

Not especially vigorous?
Your doing it wrong!
Time is irrelevant, which is more tiring 1 min of pushups or 5 mins of walking?

Note I don't discount that walking takes effort, but I'd you remove the golf aspect I reckon the Op could walk 18 holes without getting tired.

SaveOurLyric · 08-08-2014 08:02PM

GreeBo wrote: »

Not especially vigorous?
Your doing it wrong!
Time is irrelevant, which is more tiring 1 min of pushups or 5 mins of walking?

Note I don't discount that walking takes effort, but I'd you remove the golf aspect I reckon the Op could walk 18 holes without getting tired.

Time is certainly relevant. It determines directly how much energy you use.
For you push up question, it is not well posed. The energy used in pushups is determined by how many you do. Do one pushup in the 5 minutes and you will only use one calorie. Walk for 5 mnutes will use about 20-25kcal.

Interesting comparison nonetheless. A pushup uses a calorie or a little less. A single golf swing a smidgen more. With 1 practice swing or two for each full shot, you use about 3 kcal per full shot.

First Up · 08-08-2014 08:05PM

GreeBo wrote: »

Not especially vigorous?
Your doing it wrong!
Time is irrelevant, which is more tiring 1 min of pushups or 5 mins of walking?

Note I don't discount that walking takes effort, but I'd you remove the golf aspect I reckon the Op could walk 18 holes without getting tired.

Other way round. Hit every club as if it was a wedge. Old adage - still correct.

cairny · 08-08-2014 08:55PM

I think I dragged Shivas into this storm with my question, the reason I asked was it reminded me of something I'd seen, a BBC Horizon documentary (waits to have that's called an infomercial

In that they looked at just 3 minutes of very intense exercise per week.

http://www.bbc.com/news/health-17177251

There's definitely something in what he says imho.

SaveOurLyric · 08-08-2014 09:10PM

Fitness, and energy burning causing fatigue if you dont replace it, are very different things.
If you sit and watch TV all day you certainly wont be fit. But you will still burn about 2500 cal. So unless you eat even being a slob becomes fatiguing.
Pushing your muscles or cardiovascular system through exercise, even for very short bursts (in which you dont necessarily use much energy!) will improve the fitness of the muscles you are exercising by pushing their limits.

Managing Fatigue

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