Israel - Palestine Conflict. Mod note in OP - updated 1st August

Son Of A Vidic · 01-08-2014 12:04AM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Reading is for illiterates.

Riding is for itinerants?

Rightwing · 01-08-2014 12:05AM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Reading is for illiterates.

Depends, The Sun or The FT.

There is a difference.

Dan_Solo · 01-08-2014 12:06AM

Rightwing wrote: »

First 3 words...'they allegedly killed'. Enough read.

I thought Israel apologists were bad but Genghis Khan apologists...

Rightwing · 01-08-2014 12:10AM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

I thought Israel apologists were bad but Genghis Khan apologists...

We can't be quoting numbers because we don't know them. That's my point. 'up to 10 to 15 million' That's a massive variance by any standards.

Nodin · 01-08-2014 12:13AM

Rightwing wrote: »

We can't be quoting numbers because we don't know them. That's my point. 'up to 10 to 15 million' That's a massive variance by any standards.

Not really relevant when the point is that it was possible to kill millions in the 12th century, and therefore how much easier in the 20th century to do likewise.

Rightwing · 01-08-2014 12:17AM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

But we probably don't even know the exact number of Palestinians who have died in the last week due to Israeli assaults.
Does this mean we pretend nobody died?

Agreed we probably don't know.

I'm not pretending in either case, what I'm saying is whatever about the jews in WW2, we haven't a clue about the numbers in the 12th century.
That's not to say. let's pretend nothing happened.

h2005 · 01-08-2014 12:17AM

I think another shill is needed to focus peoples minds.

hju6 · 01-08-2014 12:23AM

Nodin wrote: »

When you selectively pick the figures, I'm sure they don't.

You or me?

I have seen Jews on TV demonstrating against the land grab of Gaza, I have seen Jews within Israel protesting and being attacked for their efforts, very very brave and moral people, to do that against the 95% approval for the occupation is heroic.

But the imprisonment of 1.8 million people after stealing their land, sanctions, walls, killing of fishermen 3 miles offshore, calorie allowances, etc, etc, killing children and babies in a place that is supposed to be safe backed by the UN

the world and it propaganda is sick, totally sick, and it's all down to ****ing GREED

Rightwing · 01-08-2014 12:25AM

hju6 wrote: »

You or me?

I have seen Jews on TV demonstrating against the land grab of Gaza, I have seen Jews within Israel protesting and being attacked for their efforts, very very brave and moral people, to do that against the 95% approval for the occupation is heroic.

But the imprisonment of 1.8 million people after stealing their land, sanctions, walls, killing of fishermen 3 miles offshore, calorie allowances, etc, etc, killing children and babies in a place that is supposed to be safe backed by the UN

the world and it propaganda is sick, totally sick, and it's all down to ****ing GREED

Indeed, they are not all bad apples.

hju6 · 01-08-2014 12:26AM

Nodin wrote: »

Not really relevant when the point is that it was possible to kill millions in the 12th century, and therefore how much easier in the 20th century to do likewise.

And exaggerate for effect on your enemies,

hju6 · 01-08-2014 12:26AM

Rightwing wrote: »

Indeed, they are not all bad apples.

Never said they were, reaction was interesting though

Rightwing · 01-08-2014 12:28AM

hju6 wrote: »

Never said they where, reaction was interesting though

I agree.

A bit like in Nazi Germany, there were very brave and courageous Germans defying the Nazis.

hju6 · 01-08-2014 12:34AM

Rightwing wrote: »

I agree.

A bit like in Nazi Germany, there were very brave and courageous Germans defying the Nazis.

At the time labelled 'conspirators or nutters'

We quote 'wiki'

King James rewrote the bible,

jank · 01-08-2014 12:54AM

Nodin wrote: »

I'll go mad here and say that a few bombs won't make much dent in the millions the Germans and their cronies bumped off overall. The Holocaust is a 100% verified historical fact, with no credible doubt around it at all.

Yet Hamas (the organisation which you refuse to say are a terrorist organisation) engage in wide spread holocaust denial and even say so in their charter.

The Hamas–UNRWA Holocaust dispute erupted on 31 August 2009 following a perception in the Gaza Strip that the United Nations Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA) planned to include a course on human rights that speaks about the Holocaust in the eighth-grade curriculum of preparatory schools it runs in the territory. Militant Islamic movement Hamas, which controls the Gaza Strip, protested, calling the Holocaust "a lie made up by the Zionists" and demanding the removal of the offending content from the curriculum. Some officials of the United Nations agency initially responded by denying that it teaches the subject of the Holocaust in its schools or that it plans to teach it in its new curriculum.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas%E2%80%93UNRWA_Holocaust_dispute

Secondly, people are going on endlessly about Israel committing Genocide. That assertion is rubbish and does not stand up to facts with any level headed reasonable person. Over-zealous? Possibly, trigger happy, yes. Genocide akin to the Nazi's...no, just no.

Capt'n Midnight · 01-08-2014 01:19AM

beegeedee wrote: »

The nazis killed over 6m Jewish and another million or so Roma, disabled and gay people by building train lines directly to auschitz and the likes and gassing them. Same or different? Look it up on Wikipedia.

The 6m Jews killed accounted for 60% of the population in Europe or, to put it another way, about 1.5x the population of ROI.

Yes we all know the Nazi's weren't all that nice. And you've forgotten to mention the 3 million Russian POW's who were left to die of disease and starvation in the first few months of Barbrarossa.

The point is that even the Nazi's let food into Holland.

mad muffin wrote: »

Hamas are are far from poor and impoverished. They are being financed by Qatar to the tune of $1 billion a year.

It's already been posted that Hamas lost most of it's funding before all this started and with that a lot of local influence. Israel's actions have propped them up as they appear to stand up to Israel more than Hamas.

But now that you've mentioned money , care to tell us how much Israel extracts out of the Gaza strip for the food, fuel, electricity and water despite the drastic reduction in income because there is almost no imports. Of course with the power station taken out and the need to rebuild there's bound to be even more demand for imports.

How much have food prices risen by in recent years ?

The people of Gaza are being kept alive by billions of humanitarian aid from the EU and US.

diddley · 01-08-2014 02:08AM

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Yes we all know the Nazi's weren't all that nice. And you've forgotten to mention the 3 million Russian POW's who were left to die of disease and starvation in the first few months of Barbrarossa.

The point is that even the Nazi's let food into Holland.

Thread really going off topic here but yes, the Nazis let food into Holland after 20,000 people had already died of starvation.

jank · 01-08-2014 02:20AM

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

The point is that even the Nazi's let food into Holland.

.

Not sure if even there is a point here. Gaza has one of the highest obesity rates in the world and there is no mass starvation occurring there.

NotASheeple · 01-08-2014 03:20AM

jank wrote: »

Secondly, people are going on endlessly about Israel committing Genocide. That assertion is rubbish and does not stand up to facts with any level headed reasonable person..

The only thing rubbish there is your ludicrous assertion.

Genocide - the deliberate killing of people who belong to a particular racial, political, or cultural group. The policy of deliberately killing a nationality or ethnic group

Head in the sand apologists mightn't like it, they'll flail to deny it, but yes it's genocide alright.

jank wrote: »

Over-zealous? Possibly, trigger happy, yes. Genocide akin to the Nazi's...no, just no.

Overzealous? Isn't the English language wonderful, it gives us words that take the edge of reality. But speaking of overzealous, see also - fanatical, fanatic or rabid. And that's what we've witnessed, the Zionist army killing civilians with fanatical zeal.

jank wrote: »

Gaza has one of the highest obesity rates in the world and there is no mass starvation occurring there.

9 out of 10 Martians say Vulcans are the ideal marriage partner. And like yourself, I couldn't be arsed providing evidence to back up my claim.

AngryHippie · 01-08-2014 03:22AM

jank wrote: »

Not sure if even there is a point here. Gaza has one of the highest obesity rates in the world and there is no mass starvation occurring there.

http://www.hindawi.com/journals/jobe/2012/213547/

That is the only peer-reviewed information I could find, aside from some similar data from 2003.

A decade ago.

5 years before the current blockade began in 2008.

Glad to see if you have any other sources on it.

For what its worth, even in the 2003 study, much of the cause of the obesity situation at the time was attributed to high fat and high sugar diets, a lack of exercise (I wonder where their sports facilities went ?) and a lack of access to fresh produce, which could also be symptomatic of an invasive occupying neighbor utilizing all of the available water sources and taking their pick of the better agricultural land.

Either way, your information is out of date, and your assumptions about cause and effect are false. Its because of poverty, not because of prosperity.

Try again

pedro1234 · 01-08-2014 04:00AM

I love watching kids in their early 20s trying to debate topics they have no clue about. Boards is great craic for that. I'm willing to bet most pro-Israel Zionists think the country is a few thousand years old too.

AngryHippie · 01-08-2014 04:33AM

pedro1234 wrote: »

I love watching kids in their early 20s trying to debate topics they have no clue about. Boards is great craic for that. I'm willing to bet most pro-Israel Zionists think the country is a few thousand years old too.

I doubt it to be honest, Anyone under that impression is either too lazy to do their own research, has a serious lack of knowledge in the history department, or has swallowed the greatest of the lies told in the greatest story ever written (By the greatest number of people)
There have been a few blatant shills/trolls knocking around, but I have to say that I'm still a little bit surprised at how many experienced boardsies are trying to defend Bibi's latest campaign.
Heartbreaking situation for those stuck in Gaza though, I'm no Hamas apologist, but I can see how people are driven to that level of desperation.

Nodin · 01-08-2014 05:11AM

jank wrote: »

Yet Hamas (the organisation which you refuse to say are a terrorist organisation) engage in wide spread holocaust denial and even say so in their charter..

Yep. Your point?

pedro1234 · 01-08-2014 05:29AM

Reports on Twitter that Israel already violated the ceasefire within 8 minutes of it starting.

pedro1234 · 01-08-2014 05:33AM

www.twitter.com/mzeyara/status/495075525065330688

www.twitter.com/basherkella/status/495078713965301762

jank · 01-08-2014 06:14AM

Nodin wrote: »

Yep. Your point?

You refuse to call a spade a spade and indirectly defend the organisation from its vile mandate and charter.

AngryHippie · 01-08-2014 06:25AM

jank wrote: »

You refuse to call a spade a spade and indirectly defend the organisation from its vile mandate and charter.

I disagree on this one.

As the international community cannot get their acts together regarding dissident groups, rogue entities, freedom militias and terrorists in general, the tag terrorist loses its meaning.

If you look at the definitions behind terrorist organization, it can be applied to the state of Israel just as accurately as Hamas, Hebollah, Fatah, the PLO and countless other ragtag groups that have been branded as terrorist organizations.

The work lost its meaning back when Dr. Guevara was executed, and has been moved into the realm of the ridiculous since the GW Bush administration repeated daily until puking point and beyond.

Are Hamas nice guys ? no
Are They the "Bad" guys in this situation ? 50/50 imo.

You can keep bleating and arguing the terrorist point, but it still means nothing, until their is consensus on what a terrorist organization is, what it does, when it becomes one, who decides and what evidence is required. Until then its just a tag like "Bleating Clown"

jank · 01-08-2014 06:33AM

NotASheeple wrote: »

The only thing rubbish there is your ludicrous assertion.

Genocide - the deliberate killing of people who belong to a particular racial, political, or cultural group. The policy of deliberately killing a nationality or ethnic group

I fail to see the IDF a)deliberately killing people because of their racial or ethnic background b) conducting a policy of genocide. Sure wouldn't they be also doing the same in the West Bank? Plenty of targets there. Wouldn't they not just round up all Israeli Arabs and do away with them. Would they not just carpet bomb Gaza from the air instead of risking its ground troops?

The IDF are involved in a conflict with Hamas who are based in Gaza. Due to the nature of the urbanised fighting many civilians have been caught up in the casualties as one would expect when the IDF are fighting more or less house to house. Its tragic, its not nice, its awful, but its NOT genocide.

NotASheeple wrote: »

Head in the sand apologists mightn't like it, they'll flail to deny it, but yes it's genocide alright.

No mainstream news organisation or NGO's like the Red Cross or the UN have claimed that Israel are conducting Genocide. Not even left wing papers like the Guardian have come out and said this. Why, because it is factually wrong! As mentioned before, its easy to kill lots of people with simple Knives and Machetes as what happened in Rwanda. Over a million were hacked to death in the space of 6 weeks.

The current death toll in Gaza is about 1,400. Yet, around that many have died this week alone in Syria and have done so every week for the past 2 years. The total death toll there in 160,000. In Iraq too, the weekly death toll rate is similar. Why do we not see the same mobilization of protesters and outcry against these regimes. Why do we get protesters telling the west to stay out of Syria when 160,000 have died yet they then tell the West to get involved to stop the killings when 1,400 people die in Gaza. Why the double standard when it comes to Israel and don't give me crap about sanctions.

NotASheeple wrote: »

Overzealous? Isn't the English language wonderful, it gives us words that take the edge of reality. But speaking of overzealous, see also - fanatical, fanatic or rabid. And that's what we've witnessed, the Zionist army killing civilians with fanatical zeal.

I heard that the Zionists drink the blood of their enemies and eat babies too!

AngryHippie · 01-08-2014 06:51AM

jank wrote: »

I fail to see the IDF a)deliberately killing people because of their racial or ethnic background b) conducting a policy of genocide. Sure wouldn't they be also doing the same in the West Bank? Plenty of targets there. Wouldn't they not just round up all Israeli Arabs and do away with them. Would they not just carpet bomb Gaza from the air instead of risking its ground troops?

Just becaues you fail to see it, doesn't mean it is any less real, any less deliberate, and as for conducting a policy of genocide, you must be ignoring quite a lot of facts. They've got the West Bank under their thumb and Fatah playing ball. They are in a building phase there.
If they carpet bomb anywhere allfcukinghell would break loose and you know it

jank wrote: »

The IDF are involved in a conflict with Hamas who are based in Gaza. Due to the nature of the urbanised fighting many civilians have been caught up in the casualties as one would expect when the IDF are fighting more or less house to house. Its tragic, its not nice, its awful, but its NOT genocide.

Targetting a school or a hospital deliberately is a war crime buddy.
Couple repeated incidents of this, along with an 6 year blockade of supplies and deliberate targeting of civilians, and it does constitute a genocide. Its not always as blatant as throwing hand grenades into churches.

jank wrote: »

No mainstream news organisation or NGO's like the Red Cross or the UN have claimed that Israel are conducting Genocide. Not even left wing papers like the Guardian have come out and said this. Why, because it is factually wrong! As mentioned before, its easy to kill lots of people with simple Knives and Machetes as what happened in Rwanda. Over a million were hacked to death in the space of 6 weeks.

Whataboutery - Nice one.
Acutally reinforces the point that you made about the UN and the Red Cross, as they were in Rwanda at the time, and did SFA to stop it happening to the eternal torment of Romeo D'allaire.
Just because the UN haven't shouted j'accuse, doesn't mean it aint happening.

jank wrote: »

The current death toll in Gaza is about 1,400. Yet, around that many have died this week alone in Syria and have done so every week for the past 2 years. The total death toll there in 160,000. In Iraq too, the weekly death toll rate is similar. Why do we not see the same mobilization of protesters and outcry against these regimes. Why do we get protesters telling the west to stay out of Syria when 160,000 have died yet they then tell the West to get involved to stop the killings when 1,400 people die in Gaza. Why the double standard when it comes to Israel and don't give me crap about sanctions.

I heard that the Zionists drink the blood of their enemies and eat babies too!

It's not about the body count.

and Beware the voices.

Antar Bolaeisk · 01-08-2014 06:55AM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

I thought Israel apologists were bad but Genghis Khan apologists...

He was the world's greatest environmentalist.

Dan_Solo · 01-08-2014 07:19AM

Oh dear. Jank watches Hannity I guess.
Hamas are terrorists. YES OR NO.
No context or definition of terms now or you'll get turned off!

Israel - Palestine Conflict. **Mod note in OP - updated 1st August**

Comments

Israel - Palestine Conflict. Mod note in OP - updated 1st August