Israel - Palestine Conflict. Mod note in OP - updated 1st August

tayto lover · 31-07-2014 09:04PM

conditioned games wrote: »

In fairness if we had a neighbouring country firing bombs on to us I would like to think our country would stand up for it's self and take a hard line.

I think Israel are doing a good job so far. They are better off weakening nasty Hamas by destroying their tunnels so they cant move around their explosives in the short to medium term, make the living conditions ackward for the people and then bring them to the table for peace talks.

Hamas wants Israel wiped off the map and before this conflict a lasting peace would never be possible. This current battle should help Palestinian's see their attitude up to now is wrong. Therefore Israel is on the right road so far and good luck to them. If this recent conflict between them gets both sides to recognise each other then a lasting peace may come from it.

Israel doesn't want peace, it wants land.

Manic Moran · 31-07-2014 09:05PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Oh, there's a surprise, you didn't mention the Irish peacekeeping soldiers murdered by Israeli backed militia in Lebanon, which I think might have been a bit of a "wake up call" too?

How many times do you wake up in the day?

Irish UNOC soldiers were ill equipped, and not expecting what they went into. They ended up in war, regardless of their altruistic intent. I don't believe there were any such delusions about what they were getting into in UNIFIL, their eyes were already opened.

beegeedee · 31-07-2014 09:08PM

NTMK wrote: »

given that they dish out suspended
And he is being charged, something that seemed to be omitted. Yes it was, another IDF tried to stop him and he was arrested.sentences for using human shields i dont put much faith in their "justice system"

So, like what The Irish justice system does then? I can definitely think of at least a dozen cases that shocked and disgusted me.

I'm not saying it's right. It's horrible.

Chance The Rapper · 31-07-2014 09:08PM

https://www.dfa.ie/news-and-media/speeches/speeches-archive/2014/july/seanad-debate-on-gaza-and-ukraine/

Ireland’s direct financial support to the Palestinian people currently amounts to over €10 million per annum.

While the USA is giving Israel 3 million per day

“I have met and spoken on several occasions with the Israeli Ambassador to make clear the very grave concerns and unhappiness of the Government at the disproportionate military response of Israel to Hamas’ rocket attacks which has resulted in such an unacceptably high level of civilian casualties and warning against further escalation.
“On my instructions, the Irish Ambassador to Israel, Eamon McKee, yesterday visited the Israeli Foreign Ministry. In the course of a lengthy meeting, he again made clear the Government’s very grave concerns and our particular appeal that there should be no escalation of the military campaign underway and the need for all violence to cease forthwith.

Checking the boxes.

I am determined that Ireland will continue to play the distinct and respected role which it always has within the EU in actively seeking the promotion of the two-State solution which ultimately offers the only remedy to all the conflict we are witnessing.

Being USA's bitch?

bumper234 · 31-07-2014 09:09PM

conditioned games wrote: »

In fairness if we had a neighbouring country firing bombs on to us I would like to think our country would stand up for it's self and take a hard line.

I think Israel are doing a good job so far. They are better off weakening nasty Hamas by destroying their tunnels so they cant move around their explosives in the short to medium term, make the living conditions ackward for the people and then bring them to the table for peace talks.

Hamas wants Israel wiped off the map and before this conflict a lasting peace would never be possible. This current battle should help Palestinian's see their attitude up to now is wrong. Therefore Israel is on the right road so far and good luck to them. If this recent conflict between them gets both sides to recognise each other then a lasting peace may come from it.

So bomb and murder the civilian population until they see the errors.of their ways? Do you understand the meaning of the words war crimes? Crimes against humanity? Genocide? Murder?

The Th!ng · 31-07-2014 09:11PM

I've seen mention several times of the calories being counted in the food that is allowed enter Gaza. Has anyone more info on this? Thanks.

31-07-2014 09:11PM

kryogen wrote: »

He has certainly not been charged with murder, or manslaughter I would wager.

Someone posted the charges earlier on today. On phone and would take me an age to find it.

Think there were three charges with the strongest charge being he unlawfully discharged ten rounds. Something like that anyway.

We thought our justice system was ****ed up?

mrsweebri · 31-07-2014 09:11PM

Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »

Are you in Israel, mrsweebri or elsewhere in the world? Whst is your opinion on the situation?

Well thanks for asking! I am, at a personal level, terrified of being thought of as complicit and supportive of Israel's actions in Gaza. I am terrified and angry that Israel's actions reflect on me and my children. I find it almost impossible to debate with those of my family and friends who support the incursion - they are not happy about death and destruction as some people suggest, and they would not see a dead baby and cheer or shrug. They de personalise Palestinians, avoid looking at the terrible pictures and stay glued to the right wing media. They truly believe that people who criticise them are anti Semitic, or self hating Jews.

but thankfully I have many other Israeli family and friends who are sickened by it. Some demonstrate and use twitter and online media to protest. Some boycott, attend demonstrations, fall out with friends and family. Many others keep quiet and hope and pray that it will end. My friends and family are about 60-40 in favour of the IDF and most of them do not agree with the West Bank occupation. It is much harder to get a picture of what is going on in Gaza inside Israel, unless you go online, which is also awash with false pictures and information, and yes, real and actual anti semitism, making it easier again to dismiss the horror of what is actually going on.

So my opinion is that Israelis are people like Palestinians. We have all been led to believe that we are right, fighting a just cause.

I live in Ireland, surrounded by people who are understandably angry at Israel and the IDF. I have friends and family in Israel who have moved from Europe, others who have lived there for generations and yet others whose families were expelled from Persia and Morocco. I am devastated at the destruction and murder of innocents in Gaza and even more devastated that it is my country who have done this. But the thing that upsets me most of all is that there is no end in sight. Palestinians and Israelis are going nowhere. A two state solution seems impossible to me and a one state solution - by far the most just, in my opinion - is the worst nightmare of most Israelis as it is likely to follow the chaotic or dogmatic model of other Arab countries.

So next time you suggest that Israelis as murderers, heartless, monsters or any of the other things I have read in recent days, please remember that we are simple, stupid humans like you, like the people of Gaza, and, dare I say it, like Hamas.

Manic Moran · 31-07-2014 09:11PM

dav3 wrote: »

Quite relevant to today's news. Let's hope the families finally get justice. I'm not sure if this type of news gets reported over where you are in the United States.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0731/634281-bazzi-immigration/

Not much, it's fairly small-scale news on the American scheme of things. I found out about his immigration problems through Irish military friends.

However, USA Today http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/07/31/ice-cream-man-war-crimes-deportation/13397029/ and
and CBS Local have it. http://detroit.cbslocal.com/2014/07/21/dearborn-man-arrested-for-murders-of-un-peacekeepers-34-years-ago/

Tail Docker · 31-07-2014 09:12PM

bumper234 wrote: »

So bomb and murder the civilian population until they see the errors.of their ways? Do you understand the meaning of the words war crimes? Crimes against humanity? Genocide? Murder?

He's having a McFlurry, it's hard to concentrate with brain-freeze.

bumper234 · 31-07-2014 09:14PM

SeaBreezes wrote: »

I read in a previous post. The man was moved unit. That was his 'punishment' for the cold-blooded murder of a frightened little girl. And he still is a captain and still holds a gun. And how many countless other murders is he responsible for?

he was charged

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/nov/24/israel

with illegal use of his weapon, conduct unbecoming an officer and other relatively minor infractions after emptying all 10 bullets from his gun's magazine into Iman al-Hams when she walked into a "security area" on the edge of Rafah refugee camp last month.

This is the kind of **** you are dealing with in the IDF this is how they see Palestinians

Record of a shooting

Watchtower
'It's a little girl. She's running defensively eastward'
Operations room
'Are we talking about a girl under the age of 10?'
Watchtower
'A girl of about 10, she's behind the embankment, scared to death'
Captain R (after killing the girl)
'Anything moving in the zone, even a three-year-old, needs to be killed'

JamboMac · 31-07-2014 09:17PM

mrsweebri wrote: »

Well thanks for asking! I am, at a personal level, terrified of being thought of as complicit and supportive of Israel's actions in Gaza. I am terrified and angry that Israel's actions reflect on me and my children. I find it almost impossible to debate with those of my family and friends who support the incursion - they are not happy about death and destruction as some people suggest, and they would not see a dead baby and cheer or shrug. They de personalise Palestinians, avoid looking at the terrible pictures and stay glued to the right wing media. They truly believe that people who criticise them are anti Semitic, or self hating Jews.

but thankfully I have many other Israeli family and friends who are sickened by it. Some demonstrate and use twitter and online media to protest. Some boycott, attend demonstrations, fall out with friends and family. Many others keep quiet and hope and pray that it will end. My friends and family are about 60-40 in favour of the IDF. It is much harder to get a picture of what is going on in Gaza inside Israel, unless you go online, which is also awash with false pictures and information, and yes, real and actual anti semitism, making it easier again to dismiss the horror of what is actually going on.

So my opinion is that Israelis are people like Palestinians. We have all been led to believe that we are right, fighting a just cause.

I live in Ireland, surrounded by people who are understandably angry at Israel and the IDF. I have friends and family in Israel who have moved from Europe, others who have lived there for generations and yet others whose families were expelled from Persia and Morocco. I am devastated at the destruction and murder of innocents in Gaza and even more devastated that it is my country who have done this. But the thing that upsets me most of all is that there is no end in sight. Palestinians and Israelis are going nowhere. A two state solution seems impossible to me and a one state solution - by far the most just, in my opinion - is the worst nightmare of most Israelis as it is likely to follow the chaotic or dogmatic model of other Arab countries.

So next time you suggest that Israelis as murderers, heartless, monsters or any of the other things I have read in recent days, please remember that we are simple, stupid humans like you, like the people of Gaza, and, dare I say it, like Hamas.

Why no response to my question?

Tuisceanch · 31-07-2014 09:18PM

conditioned games wrote: »

In fairness if we had a neighbouring country firing bombs on to us I would like to think our country would stand up for it's self and take a hard line.

I think Israel are doing a good job so far. They are better off weakening nasty Hamas by destroying their tunnels so they cant move around their explosives in the short to medium term, make the living conditions ackward for the people and then bring them to the table for peace talks.

Hamas wants Israel wiped off the map and before this conflict a lasting peace would never be possible. This current battle should help Palestinian's see their attitude up to now is wrong. Therefore Israel is on the right road so far and good luck to them. If this recent conflict between them gets both sides to recognise each other then a lasting peace may come from it.

bumper234 wrote: »

So bomb and murder the civilian population until they see the errors.of their ways? Do you understand the meaning of the words war crimes? Crimes against humanity? Genocide? Murder?

You scared him/her off by asking such a challenging question. Go easy.

Dan_Solo · 31-07-2014 09:20PM

beegeedee wrote: »

So, like what The Irish justice system does then? I can definitely think of at least a dozen cases that shocked and disgusted me.

I'm not saying it's right. It's horrible.

So you're saying it's wrong and horrible... then excusing it anyway.
Nice.

31-07-2014 09:21PM

Thank you, mrsweebri. I completely understand where you're coming from.

All we can hope for is a peaceful resolution sooner rather than later.

mrsweebri · 31-07-2014 09:21PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Nope, you asked who "they" are, implying the poster was talking about Jews when he was 100% obviously talking about Israel.
You brought anti-Semitism into the debate, you just didn't use those words.
So. Why exactly DID Israel annexe the West Bank (yes, they did) if they don't want to put Israelis there? Do you mind telling us what a "settlement" is exactly if it isn't a land grab by displacement of the local population?

Didn't mean to imply anything. I did not accuse anyone of anti semitism. If you feel accused, you may need to consider why. No need to get aggressive. I don't agree that Israel is concerned with the rest of the world. They are unable to annexe the West Bank without losing the jewish majority, as you know. So they have occupied it in order to avoid giving Palestinians any rights while controlling land. I do believe the current Israeli government want all of Palestinian land, just as Hamas would have the whole of Israel if it had its way.

Son Of A Vidic · 31-07-2014 09:23PM

So it looks like some real heroes have actually served in the IDF. As of today, 51 IDF Reservists have refused to fight in Gaza against the Palestinians.

“We were soldiers in a wide variety of units and positions in the Israeli military — a fact we now regret, because, in our service, we found that troops who operate in the occupied territories aren’t the only ones enforcing the mechanisms of control over Palestinian lives,” they wrote. “In truth, the entire military is implicated. For that reason, we now refuse to participate in our reserve duties, and we support all those who resist being called to service.”

The signers of the letter claimed that the army used methods of oppressive rule against the Palestinian population in Gaza and the West Bank and perpetuated the disparities in Israeli society.

“The Palestinian residents of the West Bank and Gaza Strip are deprived of civil rights and human rights. They live under a different legal system from their Jewish neighbors. This is not exclusively the fault of soldiers who operate in these territories. Those troops are, therefore, not the only ones obligated to refuse. Many of us served in logistical and bureaucratic support roles; there, we found that the entire military helps implement the oppression of the Palestinians,” the letter read.

Full article here..http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.606871

bumper234 · 31-07-2014 09:23PM

The Th!ng wrote: »

I've seen mention several times of the calories being counted in the food that is allowed enter Gaza. Has anyone more info on this? Thanks.

Here you go

http://electronicintifada.net/content/israels-starvation-diet-gaza/11810

Health officials provided calculations of the minimum number of calories needed by Gaza’s 1.5 million inhabitants to avoid malnutrition. Those figures were then translated into truckloads of food Israel was supposed to allow in each day.

But a rather different picture emerges as one reads the small print. While the health ministry determined that Gazans needed daily an average of 2,279 calories each to avoid malnutrition — requiring 170 trucks a day — military officials then found a host of pretexts to whittle down the trucks to a fraction of the original figure.

The reality was that, in this period, an average of only 67 trucks — much less than half of the minimum requirement — entered Gaza daily. This compared to more than 400 trucks before the blockade began.

JamboMac · 31-07-2014 09:24PM

mrsweebri wrote: »

Didn't mean to imply anything. I did not accuse anyone of anti semitism. If you feel accused, you may need to consider why. No need to get aggressive. I don't agree that Israel is concerned with the rest of the world. They are unable to annexe the West Bank without losing the jewish majority, as you know. So they have occupied it in order to avoid giving Palestinians any rights while controlling land. I do believe the current Israeli government want all of Palestinian land, just as Hamas would have the whole of Israel if it had its way.

If you don't want the confusion of somebody feeling their being called anti-Semitic write it down and read it 2 or 3 times as I don't know you and you don't know me so we don't know how to take what is written.

I like your double edged sword there I wasn't accusing you but I was because what you wrote.

Dan_Solo · 31-07-2014 09:25PM

mrsweebri wrote: »

Didn't mean to imply anything. I did not accuse anyone of anti semitism. If you feel accused, you may need to consider why. No need to get aggressive. I don't agree that Israel is concerned with the rest of the world. They are unable to annexe the West Bank without losing the jewish majority, as you know. So they have occupied it in order to avoid giving Palestinians any rights while controlling land. I do believe the current Israeli government want all of Palestinian land, just as Hamas would have the whole of Israel if it had its way.

You have yet again failed to answer.
Who did you think "they" might be when you asked, if it wasn't obviously Israelis being discussed?
Will we ask maybe ten times before assuming you just can't answer?

user2011 · 31-07-2014 09:25PM

beegeedee wrote: »

So, like what The Irish justice system does then? I can definitely think of at least a dozen cases that shocked and disgusted me.

I'm not saying it's right. It's horrible.

:rolleyes: yeah the Irish justice system sees a lot of 10 year old girls being pumped with 17 bullets and the covering up of it. Then it getting out into the public domain and then said soldier being given something, not even a slap on the wrist imo but yeah we see somethings that are comparable in the justice system here :rolleyes::mad:

Chance The Rapper · 31-07-2014 09:26PM

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

So it looks like some real heroes have actually served in the IDF. As of today, 51 IDF Reservists have refused to fight in Gaza against the Palestinians.

Full article here..http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.606871

Excellent stuff. This'll open some israeli eyes

beegeedee · 31-07-2014 09:30PM

In the end, both sides are wrong. Hamas is wrong for completely disregarding any opportunity for peace and also for disregarding the lives of the Palestinians as a consequence (note the differentiation here - they are not the same)

Israel on the other hand are wrong because of the heavy handed tactics they are using which puts it mildly. They are targeting rocket sights and perhaps could use a lot more care.

The problem is this: Were they really supposed to do nothing? If they did, does that indicate to Hamas that it was okay fire rockets at Israel?

Nothing is right about this. Both sides are wrong.

Just because Israel has iron dome doesn't mean it's okay for rockets to be fired at them. Just because rockets are stored by Hamas in schools, mosques and housing districts means it's okay for them to be targeted. It's certainly wrong for this to be done in the first place.

Doesn't matter what the Israeli government does, they cannot ever win. Doing nothing would destroy the government. Doing something means harming innocents.

The whole situation is totally screwed up.

Tail Docker · 31-07-2014 09:31PM

Chance The Rapper wrote: »

Excellent stuff. This'll open some israeli eyes

Doubtful. You're assuming they are blissfully ignorant and innocent, as opposed to complicit.

wretcheddomain · 31-07-2014 09:33PM

beegeedee wrote: »

They are targeting rocket sights and perhaps could use a lot more care.

Understatement of the thread.

Tuisceanch · 31-07-2014 09:34PM

beegeedee wrote: »

In the end, both sides are wrong. Hamas is wrong for completely disregarding any opportunity for peace and also for disregarding the lives of the Palestinians as a consequence (note the differentiation here - they are not the same)

Israel on the other hand are wrong because of the heavy handed tactics they are using which puts it mildly. They are targeting rocket sights and perhaps could use a lot more care.

The problem is this: Were they really supposed to do nothing? If they did, does that indicate to Hamas that it was okay fire rockets at Israel?

Nothing is right about this. Both sides are wrong.

Just because Israel has iron dome doesn't mean it's okay for rockets to be fired at them. Just because rockets are stored by Hamas in schools, mosques and housing districts means it's okay for them to be targeted. It's certainly wrong for this to be done in the first place.

Doesn't matter what the Israeli government does, they cannot ever win. Doing nothing would destroy the government. Doing something means harming innocents.

The whole situation is totally screwed up.

It's an understandable dilemma you pose but there is a problem with it. Israel could avoid the situation by dismantling the settlements in the west bank and removing their army of occupation and they could remove the naval and border freeze of Gaza. They could release all the illegally held prisoners they have kidnapped over the years and they pay for the cost of reconstructing the Palestinian infrastructure.

mrsweebri · 31-07-2014 09:37PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

You have yet again failed to answer.
Who did you think "they" might be when you asked, if it wasn't obviously Israelis being discussed?
Will we ask maybe ten times before assuming you just can't answer?

You are asking me to answer my own question, and you are being aggressive. I asked who Was meant by 'they' , as I do not see the logic behind suggestion Israel won't stop with Palestinian land. The user answered, I accepted his answer and explained my reasons behind my thoughts. You are insisting that I am accusing you of something, I have stated I did not. I have nothing more to say on that matter.

Kev2Dee · 31-07-2014 09:37PM

New ceasefire agreed....? 72hours as of 7am Israeli time....spearheaded by ban ki moon, and john Kerry jus reported on CNN

beegeedee · 31-07-2014 09:42PM

user2011 wrote: »

:rolleyes: yeah the Irish justice system sees a lot of 10 year old girls being pumped with 17 bullets and the covering up of it. Then it getting out into the public domain and then said soldier being given something, not even a slap on the wrist imo but yeah we see somethings that are comparable in the justice system here :rolleyes::mad:

Perhaps not.

Raped for 20 years by a father who gets 11 years of his 12 year sentence suspended though and walked because of time served??? That's all right though since she wasn't killed. Back to the topic anyway...

The kid was 13, not 10. Doesn't make it any better.

They have a right to their way of justice, however good or bad.

Oh, if a Hamas militant shot an innocent Israeli child they would probably pat him on the back...consider that too. At least some people there actually are upset enough to try and do something.

bumper234 · 31-07-2014 09:43PM

beegeedee wrote: »

Perhaps not.

Raped for 20 years by a father who gets 11 years of his 12 year sentence suspended though and walked because of time served??? That's all right though since she wasn't killed. Back to the topic anyway...

The kid was 13, not 10. Doesn't make it any better.

They have a right to their way of justice, however good or bad.

Oh, if a Hamas militant shot an innocent Israeli child they would probably pat him on the back...consider that too. At least some people there actually are upset enough to try and do something.

Are you really attempting to justify the murder of this 10 year old child?

Israel - Palestine Conflict. **Mod note in OP - updated 1st August**

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Israel - Palestine Conflict. Mod note in OP - updated 1st August