Israel - Palestine Conflict. Mod note in OP - updated 1st August

NewCorkLad · 31-07-2014 04:57PM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

If they deliberately targeted civilians they should be.

Well they have one of the most advanced weapon systems in the world, according to them what they aim for they hit.

While Hamas would find it hard to deliberately hit a wall in front of them.

user2011 · 31-07-2014 05:05PM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

The soldier in question, as highlighted in your quote was put on trial and convicted for his crime. So it seems the IDF and Israeli state doesn't support it, as you claim.

I wonder if a Hamas fighter has ever been reprimanded by Hamas for killing Israeli civilians....no, didn't think so, carried shoulder high no doubt.

Interesting that you use that word because that was all he got after being put on trial..

Watchtower
'It's a little girl. She's running defensively eastward'
Operations room
'Are we talking about a girl under the age of 10?'
Watchtower
'A girl of about 10, she's behind the embankment, scared to death'
Captain R (after killing the girl)
'Anything moving in the zone, even a three-year-old, needs to be killed'

Is that girls life worth just a reprimand..

Also I'd say well done to the soldiers who brought the cover up to the papers and at least the truth is known instead of the covering up propaganda that was being told.

The official account claimed that Iman was shot as she walked towards an army post with her schoolbag because soldiers feared she was carrying a bomb.

Sickening.

Tuisceanch · 31-07-2014 05:05PM

pedro1234 wrote: »

Retort: What about Liechtenstein? In Liechtenstein's last military engagement they sent 80 men and returned with 81 as they had made a friend.

That's very funny. Thanks for sharing.

pedro1234 wrote: »

They don't seem to understand that the actions of others do not justify your own. Don't turn into the monsters who once victimized you.

This is an example of tu quoque - a logical fallacy

I don't know why you are wasting your energy on these people. They are probably just young and not so bright and looking for attention.

Dan_Solo · 31-07-2014 05:09PM

MayoSalmon wrote: »

Wasn't obvious to YOU.

The UN replaces the US government in the instance of Israel. Many people would consider the Israeli's/Jews as native people to that region same as the Palestinians.

Really?
That explains why Israel has adhered to so many UN resolutions then...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_UN_resolutions_concerning_Israel_and_Palestine
Oh, most of them seem to be condemnations or nuclear weapons related.

Palestinians would also be native to the region, no? Why is Israel allowed to steal their land?

Dan_Solo · 31-07-2014 05:12PM

pedro1234 wrote: »

I still can't post web links, but here's a quote from today

Retort: What about Liechtenstein? In Liechtenstein's last military engagement they sent 80 men and returned with 81 as they had made a friend.

I see the whataboutery extends from their elected officials to their internet apologists. Is it their national sport or something?

Manic Moran · 31-07-2014 05:18PM

First off the UN is an observatory force, there to help civilians. They can't take side. If they did the wouldn't be able to do their job. Countries wouldn't let them in.

That's actually not true, unless you're referring to the UN personnel already in Gaza. Although most UN operations are peacekeeping missions, which require the assent of all parties, the UN does have the statutory ability to undertake or authorise peace enforcing, showing up whether one (or both) sides like it or not. Ireland has partaken in at least in at least two such, ONUC (losing 26 soldiers), and ISAF. Of course, you still need to find countries willing to risk their soldiers to do it. ONUC was Ireland's wake-up call that UN missions require more than a blue beret and a white UN sign for protection, and that not everybody loves the Irish. You can imagine that not too many militaries will take on the Israelis and/or Hamas.

pedro1234 · 31-07-2014 05:20PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

I see the whataboutery extends from their elected officials to their internet apologists. Is it their national sport or something?

We'll see them come out with more and more outrageous statements in the coming weeks. This I guarantee.

Lantus · 31-07-2014 05:23PM

the Palestinian people have been invaded quite cleverly by the Israeli's over many years supported by western governments. Maps of the change between Palestinian people and Israel over time tell quite a story.

What is quite sad is that these (the Jewish) were a people who were escaping persecution by Nazi Germany just looking for a home. Goebbels himself described Jewish terrorism (who like the Palestinians had no real weapons and were victims fighting for their survival) quite enthusiastically using it as a pre text for their extermination. It seems that the Jewish learned very well indeed.

It shows us that given enough power and weapons any human can teach themselves and their culture to hate and kill for whatever moral justification suits them at the time. Its the ordinary Israeli people, even children who beat the terrorist drum and actively seek the death of Palestinians, even children is quite disheartening. Its very hard to un-learn that kind of indoctrination.

Dan_Solo · 31-07-2014 05:49PM

Manic Moran wrote: »

ONUC was Ireland's wake-up call that UN missions require more than a blue beret and a white UN sign for protection, and that not everybody loves the Irish. You can imagine that not too many militaries will take on the Israelis and/or Hamas.

Oh, there's a surprise, you didn't mention the Irish peacekeeping soldiers murdered by Israeli backed militia in Lebanon, which I think might have been a bit of a "wake up call" too?

eeepaulo · 31-07-2014 06:04PM

The other day i emailed President Higgins, asking if he was willing to speak out, after watching him on the news celebrating the anniversary of the Asgard gun-running. I got back the following

Dear (ME)

The President has asked me to thank you for your e-mail of 27 July, 2014.
He has been deeply moved by the large volume of correspondence he has
received from the Irish people in recent days and he shares your concerns,
and agrees that we must all be appalled by the enormous price in human life
that is being paid for the failure of diplomacy in Gaza and in the wider
region.

The President welcomes the emergency aid which the Irish Government has
provided to families in Gaza; and he supports the statement of the Irish
Ambassador to the United Nation, where she expressed the view that neither
side in the current conflict is paying adequate regard to the cost of their
actions on innocent civilians which has led to an intolerable level of
civilian casualties.

The President believes that there is a need for urgent action by the
international community to find diplomatic and political avenues to avoid
further loss of life.

I can assure you that the President remains continuously engaged with the
ongoing situation as a matter of urgency.

Yours sincerely,

******** (his secretary, dont really feel i should publish the name)
Secretariat

The president looked like he enjoyed the Galway races yesterdau.

I emailed Senator Norris today saying the reason i did not vote for him was that i felt he would be a bit too honest and forthright, and that i wished i had voted for him now

Am i being unfair?

Nodin · 31-07-2014 06:07PM

eeepaulo wrote: »

.............

I emailed Senator Norris today saying the reason i did not vote for him was that i felt he would be a bit too honest and forthright, and that i wished i had voted for him now

Am i being unfair?

It's the position that makes him keep his gob shut, so yes, you're being a bit unfair there.

Dan_Solo · 31-07-2014 06:09PM

@eepaulo
Michael D was always the soft focus leprechaun option. Distributing condoms in the 60s was about the height of his lefty credentials.

eeepaulo · 31-07-2014 06:09PM

Nodin wrote: »

It's the position that makes him keep his gob shut, so yes, you're being a bit unfair there.

But isnt one of the wonderful things about mary robinson that she defined the role herself, and thats why we loved her

I might be, im angry and impotent, he is an easy target, at least he is there, Enda is off somewhere, obviously this is not important enough to interrupt the hols

Nodin · 31-07-2014 06:11PM

eeepaulo wrote: »

But isnt one of the wonderful things about mary robinson that she defined the role herself, and thats why we loved her

She still kept her gob shut though.

(I didn't love her, or even like her, tbh)

Nodin · 31-07-2014 06:12PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

@eepaulo
Michael D was always the soft focus leprechaun option. Distributing condoms in the 60s was about the height of his lefty credentials.

He regularly spoke at IPSC gatherings and was a vocal opponent of US policy in the 80's.

d.pop · 31-07-2014 06:14PM

Manic Moran wrote: »

That's actually not true, unless you're referring to the UN personnel already in Gaza. Although most UN operations are peacekeeping missions, which require the assent of all parties, the UN does have the statutory ability to undertake or authorise peace enforcing, showing up whether one (or both) sides like it or not. Ireland has partaken in at least in at least two such, ONUC (losing 26 soldiers), and ISAF. Of course, you still need to find countries willing to risk their soldiers to do it. ONUC was Ireland's wake-up call that UN missions require more than a blue beret and a white UN sign for protection, and that not everybody loves the Irish. You can imagine that not too many militaries will take on the Israelis and/or Hamas.

Well said.

I was trying to make a point earlier that Israel will stop what they are doing when they are ready and unlikely anytime sooner unless there is a huge swing in public opinion within Israel.
External pressure doesn't really work with these guys as they pretty much think everybody wants them dead anyway so "who cares".

I cannot see anybody intervening militarily against Israel unless they are up for a serious fight.
I don't know what current standing army numbers are in Israel but used be when I was around the area that once military service was complete everybody went in to reserves and spent 1 month a year back in uniform with their old units up to around age 50. Was called Milluiem (sic), I think, anyway overall effect is if needed there is a lot of soldiers available with recent experience and up to date skills.
Israel will need to voluntarily stand down if it's ever to happen, best chance of that is a huge public outcry from within and that's also unlikely.
Based on my contact with people within Israel the majority while opposed to loss of innocent lives believe the current action is necessary for their safety.
Right or wrong it implies no easy solution in sight.

eeepaulo · 31-07-2014 06:17PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

@eepaulo
Michael D was always the soft focus leprechaun option. Distributing condoms in the 60s was about the height of his lefty credentials.

I voted for him because i felt he would say nothing, (like the queen in the uk, she does not often say anything) while representing us and the ability to wax lyrical the whole time,

I guess i kind of wish i voted for Senator Norris now,

A Dub in Glasgo · 31-07-2014 06:18PM

d.pop wrote: »

Well said.

I was trying to make a point earlier that Gaza will stop what they are doing when they are ready and unlikely anytime sooner unless there is a huge swing in public opinion within Gaza.
External pressure doesn't really work with these guys as they pretty much think everybody wants them dead anyway so "who cares".

I cannot see anybody intervening militarily against Gaza unless they are up for a serious fight.
I don't know what current standing army numbers are in Gaza ....
Gaza will need to voluntarily stand down if it's ever to happen, best chance of that is a huge public outcry from within and that's also unlikely.
Based on my contact with people within Gaza the majority while opposed to loss of innocent lives believe the current action is necessary for their safety.
Right or wrong it implies no easy solution in sight.

See what I did there?

Rhys Essien · 31-07-2014 06:22PM

eeepaulo wrote: »

I voted for him because i felt he would say nothing, (like the queen in the uk, she does not often say anything) while representing us and the ability to wax lyrical the whole time,

I guess i kind of wish i voted for Senator Norris now,

Are you aware that Michael D is very passionate towards the Palestinian cause?

His outburst on Newstalk a few years back where he called the pro-Israeli Michael Graham a '****€r' was during a Palestine-Israel debate.Sadly he probably has to bite his lip now and say nothing.

Check it out on Youtube.Michael D-****€r-Newstalk should find it.

d.pop · 31-07-2014 06:26PM

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

See what I did there?

Yes, very clever, not sure what you are trying to say though.
Sorry.
Never sure on here if people are serious or not.
Erring on the side of caution i feel I should clarify again that I am not condoning Israeli actions but people need to hear that unfortunately it is possible this will not end soon unless Israel want it to.

eeepaulo · 31-07-2014 06:27PM

Rhys Essien wrote: »

Are you aware that Michael D is very passionate towards the Palestinian cause?

His outburst on Newstalk a few years back where he called the pro-Israeli Michael Graham a '****€r' was during a Palestine-Israel debate.Sadly he probably has to bite his lip now and say nothing.

Check it out on Youtube.Michael D-****€r-Newstalk should find it.

I had not heard it, listening at the moment.

I have heard him speak in this way before, he is awesome, just have not heard him speak like this in the last few weeks.

A Dub in Glasgo · 31-07-2014 06:28PM

d.pop wrote: »

Yes, very clever, not sure what you are trying to say though.
Sorry.
Never sure on here if people are serious or not.
Erring on the side of caution i feel I should clarify again that I am not condoning Israeli actions but people need to hear that unfortunately it is possible this will not end soon unless Israel want it to.

This will have ended a lot sooner if the US wanted it to end sooner

Dan_Solo · 31-07-2014 06:36PM

eeepaulo wrote: »

I had not heard it, listening at the moment.

I have heard him speak in this way before, he is awesome, just have not heard him speak like this in the last few weeks.

Once he joined a coalition with Fianna Fail that was pretty much it for me. All whinge and no action.

Nodin · 31-07-2014 06:37PM

eeepaulo wrote: »

I had not heard it, listening at the moment.

I have heard him speak in this way before, he is awesome, just have not heard him speak like this in the last few weeks.

Because the job of Irish president prevents him speaking on such issues. He's not allowed.

eeepaulo · 31-07-2014 06:38PM

Nodin wrote: »

Because the job of Irish president prevents him speaking on such issues. He's not allowed.

This makes me think i should vote for someone else if we silence someone like this.

Dan_Solo · 31-07-2014 06:39PM

I've looked back over the last few pages and I don't seem to be able to find all the pro-Israelis here responding my question about the West Bank.
What happens when Israel try to steal your country and you DON'T fight back?

dav3 · 31-07-2014 06:40PM

Manic Moran wrote: »

That's actually not true, unless you're referring to the UN personnel already in Gaza. Although most UN operations are peacekeeping missions, which require the assent of all parties, the UN does have the statutory ability to undertake or authorise peace enforcing, showing up whether one (or both) sides like it or not. Ireland has partaken in at least in at least two such, ONUC (losing 26 soldiers), and ISAF. Of course, you still need to find countries willing to risk their soldiers to do it. ONUC was Ireland's wake-up call that UN missions require more than a blue beret and a white UN sign for protection, and that not everybody loves the Irish. You can imagine that not too many militaries will take on the Israelis and/or Hamas.

Quite relevant to today's news. Let's hope the families finally get justice. I'm not sure if this type of news gets reported over where you are in the United States.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0731/634281-bazzi-immigration/

In April 1980, two members of the Irish Defence Forces on a UN peacekeeping mission were part of a UN convoy taken captive in southern Lebanon by members of the Israeli-backed South Lebanon Army.

Privates Thomas Barrett from Cork and Derek Smallhorne from Dublin were later found shot dead nearby, with their bodies showing signs of torture.

A third Irish soldier, John O'Mahony from Killarney, Co Kerry said he was shot and wounded by Mr Bazzi before his two comrades had been driven away.

Mr Bazzi is suspected of being responsible for the murders.

NotASheeple · 31-07-2014 06:41PM

d.pop wrote: »

I was trying to make a point earlier that Israel will stop what they are doing when they are ready

Or as other posters have pointed out already, it will continue until the Yanks have enough.

d.pop wrote: »

I cannot see anybody intervening militarily against Israel unless they are up for a serious fight.

Wonderful testosterone fueled bravado talk there. Now to state the obvious, Israel will take one all comers once the Yanks and their generously supplied equipment back them to the hilt.

d.pop wrote: »

Based on my contact with people within Israel the majority while opposed to loss of innocent lives believe the current action is necessary for their safety.
Right or wrong it implies no easy solution in sight.

Oh wait, are you the correspondent for the Israeli people? You speak for them all now? You've travelled the length and breath of the country and sounded them all out? You allegedly know some people and you're now qualified to speak for all? Man, some of the nonsense in here never stops.

eeepaulo · 31-07-2014 06:43PM

Thanks for the newstalk interview

"be a decent american rather than just a w**k*r whipping up fear"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTw2LstO7iQ

this is the man i would like to hear from

d.pop · 31-07-2014 06:44PM

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

This will have ended a lot sooner if the US wanted it to end sooner

Maybe, I'm not 100% sure though.
As close as Israel and the US are I think that Israel like a clever but spoilt child knows that as much as "dad" threatens them that he will not actually slap them or at least not too hard or in public.

Israel - Palestine Conflict. **Mod note in OP - updated 1st August**

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Israel - Palestine Conflict. Mod note in OP - updated 1st August