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Claim: 'Kyiv is the mother of all Russian Cities'

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    #812
    comongethappy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,753 ✭✭✭comongethappy


    recedite wrote: »
    That is funny alright, I had only posted a few days ago that "Khodorkovsky's oil company was essentially seized by the state". It all happened a few years ago, but the timing of the investigation/judgement is interesting given the current whipping up of anti-Putin sentiment by Obama and Cameron in their media soundbytes.
    There is of course no chance that the Russian Federation will pay this fine.

    It begs an interesting question though. Suppose you are against the "corrupt practice" whereby State assets (which have been built up over many years by all the citizens) are privatised, thereby enriching a few well connected oligarchs.
    What if someone comes to power who reverses that process? Are they corrupt? "Privately owned" oil assets were seized and nationalised in many countries over the years, eg in Iran and numerous South American countries.
    The process is always declared to be unlawful by those who represent the interests of the multinational corporations.

    Anyway, if some of the gas and oil fields around the our coasts were seized by the State I would be the first to cheer.

    Are you assuming that the court arbitrating in the Hague is corrupt?

    (Also.... What oil fields around our coast?)
    The gas fields are gov property


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    #813
    hinault
    Registered Users Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    recedite wrote: »
    Tell us again, why is "the west" so against a referendum in Crimea, but a referendum in Scotland is a sign of "true democracy" for the UK? I don't think the English will get to vote on Scottish sovereignty either?
    Fair play to the Russians for keeping the peace there so effectively in the meantime. If only the UN could/would do that in these situations.

    What has this OP got to do with Atheism and Agnosticism?


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    #814
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users Posts: 11,852 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    hinault wrote: »
    What has this OP got to do with Atheism and Agnosticism?

    Perhaps it's Putin's close ties with the Russian Orthodox Church, leading to the criminalisation of blasphemy in Russia.

    You'd be better off asking Recedite, as he's the original poster.


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    #815
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    hinault wrote: »
    What has this OP got to do with Atheism and Agnosticism?
    I didn't start this thread, believe it or not :)
    It started by itself miraculously, after a schism in another thread.
    comongethappy wrote: »
    Are you assuming that the court arbitrating in the Hague is corrupt?
    Not corrupt, but sometimes the legalistic approach of lawyers fails to "see the wood for the trees". Lets say, hypothetically speaking, I broke into a Swiss bank, and found some gold bars there that had come from the melted down teeth and personal effects of murdered jews in the 1940's. I might take the gold and distribute it to charities. That would be unlawful.

    Secondly, the Hague are only inviting ridicule by this judgement. Why not fine Cuba a couple of billion for stealing all those casinos and villas in Havana back in the revolution? Plenty of Cuban expats in Miami would like that, but the rest of the world would just laugh.
    Next time the Hague are involved in some human rights case, their authority will seem to have a little less respect than it should.
    comongethappy wrote: »
    (Also.... What oil fields around our coast?)
    The gas fields are gov property

    Its mostly gas, but there is oil too.
    I'm not necessarily suggesting the state should seize the particular oilfield in the link at this time. But in general, I think we should adopt the Norwegian approach; don't be in any great hurry to extract it, maintain majority State control, and think several generations ahead. Most of their revenues are ploughed back into education health and social services. Everyone is pretty well off as a result, but no-one is disgustingly rich. Future generations of Norwegians will inherit a resource, not a debt.
    Yes, I am aware that prospectors spend a lot of money looking for oil and gas before they find it, and have a right to make a profit etc etc...
    so I won't be dragging the thread off-topic to go into all that. Suffice it to say that the Irish people do not get a good deal when they buy back their own natural resources from private enterprise. And Ray Burke.


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    #816
    Turtwig
    Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    hinault wrote: »
    What has this OP got to do with Atheism and Agnosticism?


    Mod: This is a spin off thread of an off topic spin-off thread of an off topic thread. So it's perfectly on topic for this thread. It's a discussion that developed in this community in the same way biscuits has.


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    #817
    hinault
    Registered Users Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    Turtwig wrote: »

    Mod: This is a spin off thread of an off topic spin-off thread of an off topic thread. So it's perfectly on topic for this thread. It's a discussion that developed in this community in the same way biscuits has.

    Unless the question was asked, the reader would be none the wiser.

    The thread title, and the section where this thread is in on first reading, has no connection whatsoever.

    Thanks for the reply anyhow


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    #818
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Never judge a book by its cover ;)


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    #819
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,401 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    stevejazzx wrote: »
    Come on lets hear about this great unmatched Russian corruption.
    And that other ECHR judgement has just been issued - the Russian government has been hit with a fine of $2.5 billlion fine related to state-level corruption in the Yukos affair:

    http://www.bbc.com/news/business-28579980

    Been a bad week for Putin.


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    #820
    stevejazzx
    Registered Users Posts: 3,247 ✭✭✭stevejazzx


    robindch wrote: »
    And that other ECHR judgement has just been issued - the Russian government has been hit with a fine of $2.5 billlion fine related to state-level corruption in the Yukos affair:

    http://www.bbc.com/news/business-28579980

    Been a bad week for Putin.

    From the timing of these awards it certainly highlights the extent and influence of the US across the EU.
    The awarded amount is already totally unprecedented in the human rights field," said Jan Kleinheisterkamp, associate professor of law at the London School of Economics.

    "The 1.9bn euros is humongous in terms of compensation granted by the European Court of Human Rights


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    #821
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,401 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    stevejazzx wrote: »
    From the timing of these awards it certainly highlights the extent and influence of the US across the EU.
    What exactly do you mean? These judgments have been in the works for years and were, I believe, scheduled to appear around now.

    Are you suggesting that the US has compromised the judicial independence of the Permanent Court of Arbitration and the European Court of Human Rights?


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    #822
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Russia set to appeal.
    Though I don't think the facts of the case are really in dispute. The shareholders are claiming that their oil company was seized by Rosneft, acting as an agent of the State, which is true.
    Lawyers said that if Russia does not voluntarily accept the ruling, it can be forcibly enforced by shareholders seizing assets abroad.
    Konstantin Lukoyanov of global law firm Linklaters said: "If it is accepted, it can be carried out voluntarily, or it will be implemented forcibly.
    "In that case the seizure of assets abroad is possible. There have been several similar cases."
    Similar cases where assets have been seized have usually involved the dismantling of "a pariah state" such as Libya, where the leader ended up with a bullet in the head. But as this "dismantling" is unlikely to happen to Russia, any seizure of state assets could in theory be met with a robust tit-for-tat seizure of EU assets, such as Volkswagen factories located in Russia. I don't see this as a likely outcome, therefore some climbdown by those pushing for the fines will have to occur.


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    #823
    stevejazzx
    Registered Users Posts: 3,247 ✭✭✭stevejazzx


    robindch wrote: »
    What exactly do you mean? These judgments have been in the works for years and were, I believe, scheduled to appear around now.

    Are you suggesting that the US has compromised the judicial independence of the Permanent Court of Arbitration and the European Court of Human Rights?

    I think that diplomatically and politically its possible that the timing of these awards might be correlated with pressure on the EU, from the US, to toughen its stance against Russia and to fast track Russian sanctions. In this climate of extreme Russophobia, the one the US has created, it wouldn't be outside the realms of possibility that decisions/awards scheduled for a bit later have been released now.
    Also in the case of the 2.5 billion human rights award the amount may be related in some way to Russia's current status rather than just exclusively the case at hand.
    Makes you wonder what kind of potential humans rights awards could be awarded against both Russia and the US in relation to war crimes.


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    #824
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    We also have the public inquiry into the polonium poisoning case of former MI5/KGB agent Alexander Litvinenko starting this week, after 8 years in the preparation.
    It would be a truly amazing co-inky-dinks if all 3 events just happened to coincide with the week they are announcing the sanctions against Russia.
    In his opening statement, Mr Owen praised Mr Litvinenko's widow, Marina Litvinenko, for her patience in the face of "highly regrettable" delays....


    The case threatens to increase tensions with Moscow amid the crisis in Ukraine....

    When asked if she thought last week's announcement was due to the strained political situation with Russia, Ms Litvinenko said the political situation may have been a contributing factor, but she did not think there had been any "political involvement" in the process.


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    #825
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,245 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    It's also possible that I'll win the next Euromillions, and Richard Dawkins will convert to wahabbi Islam in the morning. Possible but extremely unlikely - unless one has evidence to the contrary?

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #826
    stevejazzx
    Registered Users Posts: 3,247 ✭✭✭stevejazzx


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    Possible but extremely unlikely - unless one has evidence to the contrary?

    Evidence that its impossible?

    That's a tricky one alright.


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    #827
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,245 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Perhaps in the absence of evidence, one should desist from such improbable claims.

    This is the atheism and agnosticism forum after all...

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #828
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,245 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    stevejazzx wrote: »
    Evidence that its impossible?

    That's a tricky one alright.

    Not what I asked you, but nice try I suppose.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #829
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    Perhaps in the absence of evidence, one should desist from such improbable claims.

    This is the atheism and agnosticism forum after all...
    I am quite sure that steve is being "agnostic" here. He is keeping an open mind based on the timing of these events and the obvious motive present to do so, it's a fairly reasonable position and a million miles from your ludicrous false comparisons of the Islamic Dawkins etc.

    If there were moves behind the scenes to use these cases for anti-Russian propaganda purposes what evidence would we certainly have now which is currently absent?


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    #830
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    If there were moves behind the scenes to use these cases for anti-Russian propaganda purposes what evidence would we certainly have now which is currently absent?

    Startling and unexpected changes in timetables.


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    #831
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Startling and unexpected changes in timetables.

    And can you provide these timetables? Have you seen these timetables? If not, then you have no starting point to measure any deviation from.


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    #832
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,401 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    stevejazzx wrote: »
    In this climate of extreme Russophobia, the one the US has created [...]
    I'm at something of a loss to know how to reply here.

    Russia has invaded and annexed Crimea; it has armed its own citizens who have then invaded East Ukraine with the help of local thugs and its own military resulting in the deaths, so far, of somewhere between 1,000 and 2,000 people; it was almost certainly indirectly or directly responsible for shooting down MH17; it has legitimized, from the very highest levels, Russian ethnic nationalism at home and abroad from within a country filled with large numbers of red-eyed, semi-fascist thugs; it has radicalized the rest of its own population by feeding them a diet of hysterical, predatory propaganda. But the the US is somehow to blame for the rest of the world being horrified? :confused:

    The claim of "Russophobia" reminds me of the faintly unconvincing claims of christianophobia and islamopoibia by our religious friends.


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    #833
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    robindch wrote: »
    I'm at something of a loss to know how to reply here.

    Russia has invaded and annexed Crimea; it has armed its own citizens who have then invaded East Ukraine with the help of local thugs and its own military resulting in the deaths, so far, of somewhere between 1,000 and 2,000 people; it was almost certainly indirectly or directly responsible for shooting down MH17; it has legitimized, from the very highest levels, Russian ethnic nationalism at home and abroad from within a country filled with large numbers of red-eyed, semi-fascist thugs; it has radicalized the rest of its own population by feeding them a diet of hysterical, predatory propaganda. But the the US is somehow to blame for the rest of the world being horrified? :confused:

    The claim of "Russophobia" reminds me of the faintly unconvincing claims of christianophobia and islamopoibia by our religious friends.

    What is this statement of yours if not Russophobic?

    Russia is... "a country filled with large numbers of red-eyed, semi-fascist thugs"


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    #834
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,401 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    What is this statement of yours if not Russophobic?
    Delete the word "filled" if you wish. As for the rest, I'm speaking from first-hand experience, so I feel it's an accurate description rather than a "russophobic" one.


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    #835
    stevejazzx
    Registered Users Posts: 3,247 ✭✭✭stevejazzx


    robindch wrote: »
    I'm at something of a loss to know how to reply here.

    Come on you battle Christianity daily - this could hardly flummox you? :)



    robindch wrote:
    Russia has invaded and annexed Crimea; it has armed its own citizens who have then invaded East Ukraine with the help of local thugs and its own military resulting in the deaths, so far, of somewhere between 1,000 and 2,000 people; it was almost certainly indirectly or directly responsible for shooting down MH17; it has legitimized, from the very highest levels,

    Yes you are correct regarding Russia's actions. Now imagine if Russia started moralizing about the US?
    That'd be intensely and delusionally hypocritical right? Well that's exactly whats happening except in reverse.
    The US has bombed more innocent people and the CIA has been involved in undermining more democratic processes than is possible to recount in these lines to such a degree that those unfamiliar with their atrocities could even start to comprehend their scale - Yet the US has created a propaganda machine which is set at full throttle against the Russians - that is indisputable. That propaganda machine is responsible for this overwhelming irrational fear that many people in the west have of normal Russia folk. I thought such notions were a given.

    *Remember I'm not blaming the world for Russia's actions - I would never make such an outrageous statement so you'll have argue against my actual points rather than, well, you know, the ones I didn't make.


    robindch wrote:
    Russian ethnic nationalism at home and abroad from within a country filled with large numbers of red-eyed, semi-fascist thugs; it has radicalized the rest of its own population by feeding them a diet of hysterical, predatory propaganda. But the the US is somehow to blame for the rest of the world being horrified? :confused:

    You've left no room in your, at least, quasi xenophobic rhetoric, for the tens of millions of normal Russians?

    robindch wrote:
    The claim of "Russophobia" reminds me of the faintly unconvincing claims of christianophobia and islamopoibia by our religious friends.
    Well it could easily be argued that islamophobia and Russophobia exist and are justified to an extent. But the manipulation of, news sources (propaganda) to exacerbate either of these 'phobias' is what we're talking about.


    Steve


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    #836
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,401 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    stevejazzx wrote: »
    You've left no room in your, at least, quasi xenophobic rhetoric, for the tens of millions of normal Russians?
    I did leave room. Just to clarify, I imagine that the "large numbers" I'm talking about are in the hundreds of thousands, possibly less, possibly more - the kind of people from any population who are easily led by the kind of predatory propaganda which Russia is filling its airwaves with. This is nothing specific to Russia, I should add - poisoning people with lies and hatred works in any country. I'm simply very concerned that Putin has lit something he's going to have a hard time controlling, especially in a country with a massive, well-equipped army.

    I sincerely hope there are millions who disagree with what Putin's doing just now, but if there are, they're not making many waves, at least in public.


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    #837
    comongethappy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,753 ✭✭✭comongethappy


    robindch wrote: »
    I sincerely hope there are millions who disagree with what Putin's doing just now, but if there are, they're not making many waves, at least in public.

    They tried after Putin outright stole their 2011 parliamentary elections.

    Massive anti-putin protests across Russia

    Then came the repression.

    Aside from a large pro-Ukraine rally in Moscow some months ago, there hasn't been much.


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    #838
    stevejazzx
    Registered Users Posts: 3,247 ✭✭✭stevejazzx


    robindch wrote: »
    . This is nothing specific to Russia, I should add - poisoning people with lies and hatred works in any country.

    Yes and it should be noted that, in this regard, there are more ways of skinning the proverbial cat than those immediately obvious.
    robindch wrote:
    I sincerely hope there are millions who disagree with what Putin's doing just now, but if there are, they're not making many waves, at least in public.

    I would agree with that. They won't make waves to remove Putin because they have a false sense of representation and security in him, a mindset galvanized by what they feel is transparent US subterfuge and in some cases they're (normal Russian people) right to feel that way.


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    #839
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    And can you provide these timetables? Have you seen these timetables? If not, then you have no starting point to measure any deviation from.

    I didn't claim that the timings were significant. The onus is on those who would claim such significance to provide evidence for the claim.


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    #840
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    I didn't claim that the timings were significant. The onus is on those who would claim such significance to provide evidence for the claim.
    It is self-evident that timings are significant. The question is whether they were cynically intentioned this way.

    I was under the impression that your position was that the timing of these 3 events all occurring within the same week was insignificant or coincidence. Is this not your claim?

    If so, and as you apparently are not in possession or knowledge of any specific timetable to point to and demonstrate this coincidence I am curious as to what basis your position holds.


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    #841
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    robindch wrote: »
    Delete the word "filled" if you wish. As for the rest, I'm speaking from first-hand experience, so I feel it's an accurate description rather than a "russophobic" one.
    It would be more important for you to correct yourself really. Also, I am not sure how you are speaking from first hand experience in declaring Russia being responsible for the Malaysian plane.

    I'm not really sure where you are coming from at all. You are comparing something that you claim is impossible to exist with something that can and does exist Islamophobia and Christianophobia.

    Also, you claim to have a problem with Russia's extreme right but become an apologist for Ukraine's violent fascists who spearheaded the coup and have since been integrated into the military to form the National Guard.


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