Israel - Palestine Conflict. Mod note in OP - updated 1st August

Tuisceanch · 30-07-2014 04:56PM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

It means they neither care for nor don't care for killing civilians. (you've surely heard the word used before, no?)

As I say, I think that's being charitable. I suspect Hamas like killing Israelis.

An agnostic is a person who believes that the existence of a greater power, such as a god, cannot be proven or disproved; therefore an agnostic wallows in the complexity of the existence of higher beings.I know the word in that context but how is it appropriate to use it in the context you have?

Mr. Boo · 30-07-2014 04:57PM

Tuisceanch wrote: »

An agnostic is a person who believes that the existence of a greater power, such as a god, cannot be proven or disproved; therefore an agnostic wallows in the complexity of the existence of higher beings.I know the word in that context but how is it appropriate to use it in the context you have?

It's not.

Nodin · 30-07-2014 04:57PM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Yes. I think Israel would prefer not to kill any civilians. They would prefer only to kill Hamas fighters and remove their weaponry. Civilian causalities do not help their cause.

There's no evidence to demonstrate that, and a few decades worth to demonstrate the opposite.

Tuisceanch · 30-07-2014 04:58PM

Mr. Boo wrote: »

It's not.

Ah well it's only a word. No point getting hung up about it!:)

I Heart Internet · 30-07-2014 04:58PM

Tuisceanch wrote: »

An agnostic is a person who believes that the existence of a greater power, such as a god, cannot be proven or disproved; therefore an agnostic wallows in the complexity of the existence of higher beings.I know the word in that context but how is it appropriate to use it in the context you have?

Agnostic is not just a term relating to religion.

It means the position of holding neither of two opposing views on a subject (any subject).

#wordfortheday

wes · 30-07-2014 05:00PM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Yes. I think Israel would prefer not to kill any civilians. They would prefer only to kill Hamas fighters and remove their weaponry. Civilian causalities do not help their cause.

Care to explain the Dahiya doctrine then?

The Dahiya doctrine is a military strategy put forth by the Israeli general Gadi Eizenkot that pertains to asymmetric warfare in an urban setting, in which the army deliberately targets civilian infrastructure, as a means of inducing suffering for the civilian population, thereby establishing deterrence.[1] The doctrine is named after a southern suburb in Beirut with large apartment buildings which were flattened by the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) during the 2006 Lebanon War.[2] Israel has been accused of implementing the strategy during the Gaza War.

Why are ignoring the above doctrine, which clearly shows Israel intent, and then we have over 1000 examples of that doctrine being put into practice in Gaza. The worlds media witness the callous murder of Palestinians children playing football on beach, the attacks on UNRWA facilities that civilians fled to, and that the IDF were informed about.

Again, and again we see proof of Israel deliberate attacks on civilians, and we also know the exact military doctrine under which is its being carried out as well.

LorMal · 30-07-2014 05:00PM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

It's not that they're not terrorists, it's that when the term is only selectively applied to non-state actors it loses all credibility. The modern definition of terrorism is using violence against civilians to force political change. It is not further specified as "non state actors using violence... Etc".

An organisations actions define whether or not it is engaging in terrorism. Not whether it's "official" or not, and not which side that organisation happens to be on.

The actions of the IDF here constitute a blindingly obvious reprisal against civilians for the actions of Hamas. They are punishing the civilians of Gaza to break their political will and punish them for electing Hamas. So even if you believe as I do that Hamas are absolute scum, it doesn't change the fact that the IDF is engaging in a terrorist operation.

I totally agree - they are both terrorist organisations.. (Guess who wont 'like' my reply?)

Tuisceanch · 30-07-2014 05:00PM

Nodin wrote: »

There's no evidence to demonstrate that, and a few decades worth to demonstrate the opposite.

In the absence of evidence could you be enticed by blind belief?

Tuisceanch · 30-07-2014 05:06PM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Agnostic is not just a term relating to religion.

It means the position of holding neither of two opposing views on a subject (any subject).

#wordfortheday

So they are unwilling to commit to an opinion about the killing of civilians. One could say indifferent. So you would hold that they are neither for or against killing civilians?

I Heart Internet · 30-07-2014 05:07PM

wes wrote: »

Care to explain the Dahiya doctrine then?

Why are ignoring the above doctrine, which clearly shows Israel intent, and then we have over 1000 examples of that doctrine being put into practice in Gaza. The worlds media witness the callous murder of Palestinians children playing football on beach, the attacks on UNRWA facilities that civilians fled to, and that the IDF were informed about.

Again, and again we see proof of Israel deliberate attacks on civilians, and we also know the exact military doctrine under which is its being carried out as well.

"Israel has been accused of implementing the strategy...."

People are accused of a lot of things in this conflict.

I Heart Internet · 30-07-2014 05:08PM

Tuisceanch wrote: »

So they are unwilling to commit to an opinion about the killing of civilians. One could say indifferent. So you would hold that they are neither for or against killing civilians?

I think that's being very charitable (as I've said previously). I suspect any dead Israeli is cool by Hamas tbh, civilian or otherwise.

Nodin · 30-07-2014 05:08PM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

People are accused of a lot of things in this conflict.

Being obtuse. They implemented the strategy in Lebanon, and looking at the damage in Gaza, it's clear that they're taking the same approach there.

hatrickpatrick · 30-07-2014 05:09PM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

No. I don't believe anyone on this thread is in favour of atrocities. I never claimed there were.

Answer the second half of my question: has anyone actually claimed that Hamas are not terrorists?

Tuisceanch · 30-07-2014 05:10PM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

I think that's being very charitable (as I've said previously). I suspect any dead Israeli is cool by Hamas tbh, civilian or otherwise.

Well I would sincerely doubt that they hold Israeli's in high regard. I would definitely have to agree with you there.

wes · 30-07-2014 05:10PM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

People are accused of a lot of things in this conflict.

You asked for intent, I provided it, and I have the numbers. So as its stands, I provided examples of both word and deed for my claims. You have provided nothing.

hatrickpatrick · 30-07-2014 05:10PM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

No. Hamas are terrorists. The IDF occasionally use unacceptable terrorist means to achieve legitimate goals.

So at what point does one who occasionally uses terrorist means become a terrorist?
If I "occasionally" rob banks in order to accomplish a legitimate goal like feeding my family, am I not a robber?

user2011 · 30-07-2014 05:11PM

I Heart Internet wants Mark Regev's job

I Heart Internet · 30-07-2014 05:12PM

wes wrote: »

You asked for intent, I provided it, and I have the numbers. So as its stands, I provided examples of both word and deed for my claims. You have provided nothing.

"I have the numbers"

Interesting turn of phrase.

WakeUp · 30-07-2014 05:12PM

Five Latin American countries withdraw envoys from Israel:

"El Salvador on Wednesday became the fifth Latin American country to withdraw its ambassador from Israel in protest at Israel's military offensive in Gaza.

Brazil, Chile, Ecuador and Peru have already recalled their ambassadors."

So much for the all moral all caring about people and stuff "west" taking the lead in such actions. it appears the Latin Americans some of them anyway have the boll0x and will to do the right thing and are doing that for "us". fair play to them.

Tuisceanch · 30-07-2014 05:12PM

user2011 wrote: »

I Heart Internet wants Mark Regev's job

Has he resigned? Big shoes to fill.How much does it pay? Sounds cynical I know but times are tough.

Dan_Solo · 30-07-2014 05:13PM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

So at what point does one who occasionally uses terrorist means become a terrorist?
If I "occasionally" rob banks in order to accomplish a legitimate goal like feeding my family, am I not a robber?

That reminds me of the joke about the man who's constantly referred to as "Sean the sheep shagger" despite all the other things he's done and it was "only one sheep, once."

WakeUp · 30-07-2014 05:14PM

Link to the article about the countries who have withdrawn their envoys
http://www.aa.com.tr/en/rss/366549--five-latin-american-countries-withdraw-envoys-from-israel

Dan_Solo · 30-07-2014 05:14PM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

"I have the numbers"

Interesting turn of phrase.

What's your counter "I have f**k all"?

hatrickpatrick · 30-07-2014 05:15PM

Tuisceanch wrote: »

In the absence of evidence could you be enticed by blind belief?

Did you read Nodin's entire post?

Nodin wrote:

There's no evidence to demonstrate that, and a few decades worth to demonstrate the opposite.

He is not only referring to absence of evidence.

hatrickpatrick · 30-07-2014 05:16PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

That reminds me of the joke about the man who's constantly referred to as "Sean the sheep shagger" despite all the other things he's done and it was "only one sheep, once."

Has he ever been caught shagging sheep?

user2011 · 30-07-2014 05:17PM

Tuisceanch wrote: »

Has he resigned? Big shoes to fill.How much does it pay? Sounds cynical I know but times are tough.

Nope, oh I think I Heart Internet could fill them easily. IhI could command €1m a post the way the replies have skirted all things pointed out.

You'd have no chance with IhI in the running would be pointless to against s/he.

FTA69 · 30-07-2014 05:19PM

jank wrote: »

They perjury themselves with their actions and their charter that denies the holocaust, calls for the killing of Jews and the genocide of Israelis.

Their charter has largely been discarded and for people calling for genocide they seem to be pretty level headed and have set out a plan for a permanent truce with Israel. Again, if you are going to label Hamas terrorists then by the same criteria Israel are too, and far more effective ones at that. While I'm not a big fan of Hamas, they aren't the problem here. The bigger pictures lies with Israeli occupation and colonisation of Palestine.

blackwhite · 30-07-2014 05:21PM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I believe they were responsible for bringing down an almighty sh!tstorm against Tommy Tiernan over a racist joke a few years back. While I agree the joke was in poor taste, I can pretty much guarantee that it could have been directed against any other ethnic group in the world and it wouldn't have caused the level of fallout that it did.

Seeing as how you seem to want to hound people into answering your questions - how about you actually stand over this claim? (which at face value seems to be peddling "Jews control the media" conspiracy theories).

The only major fallout I can remember in recent times about a joke or similar was this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jyllands-Posten_Muhammad_cartoons_controversy.

bumper234 · 30-07-2014 05:23PM

user2011 wrote: »

Shameful.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2710397/15-Palestinians-killed-90-injured-Israeli-tank-shell-attack-UN-school-used-refugee-shelter.html

****ing disgraceful how these ***** are getting away with this blatant murder of innocent kids.

blackwhite · 30-07-2014 05:23PM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

I think that's being very charitable (as I've said previously). I suspect any dead Israeli is cool by Hamas tbh, civilian or otherwise.

TBH, in the eyes of the IDF and Netanyahu a dead Palestinian is just another number. One that they aren't overly concerned with one way or another.

Israel - Palestine Conflict. **Mod note in OP - updated 1st August**

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Israel - Palestine Conflict. Mod note in OP - updated 1st August