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Israel - Palestine Conflict. **Mod note in OP - updated 1st August**

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Comments

  • #452
    Donkey Oaty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,533 ✭✭✭Donkey Oaty


    RustyNut wrote: »
    So we are agreed both Hamas and the IDF are terrorists ?

    Forget about the definitions - a plague on both their houses.

    Now, how can a lasting peaceful settlement come from this? That is the real question we should be addressing here.


  • #453
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    Nodin wrote: »
    Given the ratio of civilian casualties caused by both sides, you might want to reverse the order of that.

    Numbers mean nothing. Intent is everything.

    Israel would prefer not to kill any civilians. Hamas are, at the most charitable, agnostic about killing civilians.


  • #454
    RustyNut
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,427 ✭✭✭RustyNut


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    No it's not.

    It may be used incorrectly, but it means a person or group who employs terror as a tactic to get its way.

    Is Hamas a terrorist organisation?
    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    No. Hamas are terrorists. The IDF occasionally use unacceptable terrorist means to achieve legitimate goals.

    No comment needed.


  • #455
    user2011
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,071 ✭✭✭user2011


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    No. Hamas are terrorists. The IDF occasionally use unacceptable terrorist means to achieve legitimate goals.

    So they can become a terrorist then become a non-terrorist?

    Kinda like Hamas who the in the last nearly 2 years had reduced the number rockets being fired into Israel down too single digits I think 4/5 and they weren't fired by by Hamas.


  • #456
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    Donkey Oaty wrote: »
    Forget about the definitions - a plague on both their houses.

    Now, how can a lasting peaceful settlement come from this? That is the real question we should be addressing here.

    Hamas acknowledging the right of it's neighbours to exist. And Israel being constructive about establishing a free, peaceful, flourishing Palestinian state.


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  • #457
    bboybaboy19
    Closed Accounts Posts: 260 ✭✭bboybaboy19


    RustyNut wrote: »
    If you start another thread instead of trying to derail this one you might get an answer.

    Do you think targeting kids playing on a beech is murder ?

    lol, I'm not trying to derail it. I'm asking you a simple question which you refuse to answer. Probably because you know the truth will show up your hypocritical views.

    When you put it like that, yes.

    When you put it the way things ACTUALLY happened then no ;) but never let facts get in the way. EVER.


  • #458
    Gringo180
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,205 ✭✭✭Gringo180


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    No. Hamas are terrorists. The IDF occasionally use unacceptable terrorist means to achieve legitimate goals.

    So assasinating innocent Iranian scientists is legitimate goals? And forging passports to commit murder are legitimate goals?


  • #459
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    user2011 wrote: »
    So they can become a terrorist then become a non-terrorist?

    Kinda like Hamas who the in the last nearly 2 years had reduced the number rockets being fired into Israel down too single digits I think 4/5 and they weren't fired by by Hamas.

    Yet they had a declared wish to wipe Israel from the map. Great guys.


  • #460
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    Numbers mean nothing. Intent is everything.

    Israel would prefer not to kill any civilians. Hamas are, at the most charitable, agnostic about killing civilians.


    People see that as if it's some established universal law, but as somebody who has been following this issue for over 25 years, I've seen scant evidence of that. A general callous disregard for Palestinian life seems to be the default setting, and when civillians are deliberately targeted, disciplinary action is notable by its virtual absence.


  • #461
    Gringo180
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,205 ✭✭✭Gringo180


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    Yet they had a declared wish to wipe Israel from the map. Great guys.

    You will find Palestine is the only country who has been wiped off the map.


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  • #462
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    Numbers mean nothing. Intent is everything.

    Number are proof of intent. If you kill over a 1000 people most of them civilians, then claiming that you didn't mean it, is rather hard to believe.

    Having said that the Dahiya Doctrine, shows the intent pretty damn clearly.


  • #463
    user2011
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,071 ✭✭✭user2011


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    Yet they had a declared wish to wipe Israel from the map. Great guys.

    Yeah but that was when they were terrorists. Then they became non-terrorists formed a unity government with Fatah to help the Palestinian people but Israel didn't like this so Israel put on it's terrorist hat and has killed 200 children and 1000 others?


  • #464
    WakeUp
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,823 ✭✭✭WakeUp


    Israeli air strike kills 15 in market :

    "At least 15 people have been killed and 160 wounded in an Israeli air strike that hit a market near Gaza City, Palestinian officials say.

    The explosion hit a busy fruit and vegetable market in Shejaiya, east of Gaza City, where hundreds of Palestinians were shopping, "a spokesman for the Gaza health ministry said.
    http://m.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28571785


  • #465
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    Yet they had a declared wish to wipe Israel from the map. Great guys.

    Zionists wiped Palestine off the map already (yes, yes i know it was a mandate, but I see no real difference there really), so not exactly in a position to point fingers.


  • #466
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    wes wrote: »
    Number are proof of intent. If you kill over a 1000 people most of them civilians, then claiming that you didn't mean it, is rather hard to believe.

    Having said that the Dahiya Doctrine, shows the intent pretty damn clearly.

    Numbers are not proof of intent. That is entirely flawed logic.


  • #467
    Tuisceanch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 735 ✭✭✭Tuisceanch


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    Numbers mean nothing. Intent is everything.

    Israel would prefer not to kill any civilians. Hamas are, at the most charitable, agnostic about killing civilians.

    Incredible that you expend so much time debating the term terrorist that you can glibly come up with such gibberish as 'agnostic about killing civilians' and not to mention to the previous insanity of numbers and intent. How would you define sociopath?


  • #468
    RustyNut
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,427 ✭✭✭RustyNut


    bboybaboy19 wrote: »
    lol, I'm not trying to derail it. I'm asking you a simple question which you refuse to answer. Probably because you know the truth will show up your hypocritical views.

    When you put it like that, yes.

    When you put it the way things ACTUALLY happened then no ;) but never let facts get in the way. EVER.

    Yes I think that any Afghan civillians that were intentionally or recklessly killed by whichever side,Russian,American,Mujahedin is murder.


  • #469
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    I was being charitable to Hamas - they are, at best, agnostic about killing civilians.


  • #470
    Gringo180
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,205 ✭✭✭Gringo180


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    Numbers are not proof of intent. That is entirely flawed logic.

    Can you address my questions please? Why are the Israeli intelligent services assasinating innocent people in Iran and Dubai?


  • #471
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    WakeUp wrote: »
    Israeli air strike kills 15 in market :

    "At least 15 people have been killed and 160 wounded in an Israeli air strike that hit a market near Gaza City, Palestinian officials say.

    The explosion hit a busy fruit and vegetable market in Shejaiya, east of Gaza City, where hundreds of Palestinians were shopping, "a spokesman for the Gaza health ministry said.
    http://m.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28571785


    "At least 19 Palestinians were killed and about 90 injured early on Wednesday when a UN school sheltering displaced people was hit by shells during a second night of relentless bombardment that followed an Israeli warning of a protracted military campaign."
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/30/gaza-another-un-school-hit-in-further-night-of-fierce-bombardment


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  • #472
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    Numbers are not proof of intent. That is entirely flawed logic.

    Yes, they are, if you keep killing civilians, while claiming you didn't mean, then its pretty clear that the intent was to kill them.

    Also, again the Dahiya doctrine is proof of intent. So, we got numbers, which are proof enough, but also have intent as well.


  • #473
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    Gringo180 wrote: »
    Can you address my questions please? Why are the Israeli intelligent services assasinating innocent people in Iran and Dubai?

    I don't know. Why?


  • #474
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    No. Hamas are terrorists. The IDF occasionally use unacceptable terrorist means to achieve legitimate goals.
    Stealing sovereign territory is now a legitimate goal?
    Have the UN got a new charter?


  • #475
    Tuisceanch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 735 ✭✭✭Tuisceanch


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    I was being charitable to Hamas - they are, at best, agnostic about killing civilians.

    Is agnostic the word you mean to use because it sounds nonsensical in the context you use it? Indifferent?


  • #476
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    Tuisceanch wrote: »
    Is agnostic the word you mean to use because it sounds nonsensical in the context you use it?

    It means they neither care for nor don't care for killing civilians. (you've surely heard the word used before, no?)

    As I say, I think that's being charitable. I suspect Hamas like killing Israelis.


  • #477
    Gringo180
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,205 ✭✭✭Gringo180


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    I don't know. Why?

    Exactly, you dont know, so your in no position to say that they terrorise for legitimate goals.


  • #478
    Tuisceanch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 735 ✭✭✭Tuisceanch


    Tuisceanch wrote: »
    Is agnostic the word you mean to use because it sounds nonsensical in the context you use it? Indifferent?

    If Hamas are 'agnostic' or indifferent to the killing of civilians,can we say that Israel kills civilians with a heavy heart?


  • #479
    user2011
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,071 ✭✭✭user2011


    Shameful.
    Israel was warned no fewer than 17 times that a school it destroyed with tank strikes killing 19 Palestinians and injuring 125 others had been housing refugees, the UN claimed today.
    The United Nations Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA) said children were killed as they slept next to their parents on the floor of a classroom in the Jabaliya refugee camp when shells smashed into the complex overnight.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2710397/15-Palestinians-killed-90-injured-Israeli-tank-shell-attack-UN-school-used-refugee-shelter.html


  • #480
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    Tuisceanch wrote: »
    If Hamas are 'agnostic' or indifferent to the killing of civilians,can we say that Israel kills civilians with a heavy heart?

    Yes. I think Israel would prefer not to kill any civilians. They would prefer only to kill Hamas fighters and remove their weaponry. Civilian causalities do not help their cause.


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  • #481
    R P McMurphy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,129 ✭✭✭R P McMurphy


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    It means they neither care for nor don't care for killing civilians. (you've surely heard the word used before, no?)

    As I say, I think that's being charitable. I suspect Hamas like killing Israelis.

    not unlike the scene in tel Aviv


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