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Ultimate Cell

  • 25-07-2014 09:21AM
    #1
    Ardennes1944
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,234 ✭✭✭


    Heard about this on the radio on the way to work this monring
    http://www.ultimatecell.ie/

    Reminds me of those 2$ cigarette lighter fuel-saving yokes on ebay but it seems to be well followed and supported at the same time.

    Reduce carbon build up, fuel consumption and emissions, I'd nearly buy one to try it.
    Seemingly it uses hydrogen that it feeds into the car air intake system which then reaches the combustion chamber


«13

Comments

  • #2
    Alanstrainor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,157 ✭✭✭✭Alanstrainor


    I see these on motoring forums in the states all the time. Just complete snake oil nonsense. Can you imagine if this magical equipment actually worked? Every new car in the country would have one, but they don't.


  • #3
    whippet
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,741 ✭✭✭whippet


    Alanstrainor wrote: »
    I see these on motoring forums in the states all the time. Just complete snake oil nonsense. Can you imagine if this magical equipment actually worked? Every new car in the country would have one, but they don't.

    Hydrogen Hybrid has been attempted many times and the real problem is that the theory disregards the laws of thermodynamics.

    However, it is possible to use HHO systems to reduce fuel consumption and to clean emissions if certain problems are over come

    - efficient electrolysis
    - quality of the hydrogen feed to the fuel mix
    - increasing the effeciceny of the parent fuel (diesel / petrol)

    All you need is a slight increase in fuel economy to make it commercially viable. I have seen a system that is giving a 10% actual reduction in consumption on a 3.0TDI engine. This is based on about 10,000 miles of normal driving. its not on the market yet as it is really for HGVs and agricultural machines but is in the very final stages of design.


  • #4
    PaddyFagan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,146 ✭✭✭PaddyFagan


    At least unlike some of the out and out snake oil schemes it requires a top up - so they're saying (from) 399 + VAT for install and 45 + VAT every two years.

    So a rough calculation for me is that I'd need to save 380 liters of fuel over 4 years to break even, a little less than 2l a week - I currently use about 30l a week, so I'd need about a 7% (ish) saving to justify it on that basis alone. They're quoting 10-30% savings, so maybe....

    But I have to say a) I'm note sure it works and b) given the marginal ROI from my figures I'd be very concerned that if it did work, if it shortened the life of any engine components I'd likely be in trouble.

    I think the general skeptical response will go away if it can be shown to work - but even then I'd want 5-10 years of analysis of wear rates on engine components before I'd consider it.

    Paddy


  • #5
    Kenny Logins
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,060 ✭✭✭Kenny Logins


    Alanstrainor wrote: »
    I see these on motoring forums in the states all the time. Just complete snake oil nonsense. Can you imagine if this magical equipment actually worked? Every new car in the country would have one, but they don't.

    Oil companies conspiracy blah blah. :pac:


  • #6
    porsche boy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,560 ✭✭✭porsche boy


    seen them a couple of times fitted to cars, no real benifit according to the owners. If your thinking that way I'd say LPG would be better value for money


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  • #7
    Ardennes1944
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,234 ✭✭✭Ardennes1944


    Said on the radio that the Portugese Defense Forces use them :pac:


  • #8
    whippet
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,741 ✭✭✭whippet


    there is no way that you would get anything like 30% efficiency ... the draw from the alternator / battery will not allow for that.

    the market isn't really for domestic users, take a HGV burring €2000 worth of fuel a week, a 10% saving equates to a significant amount and with the HHO unit I have seen it more or less negates the need for AdBlue creating a further saving.


  • #9
    porsche boy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,560 ✭✭✭porsche boy


    Ardennes1944 wrote: »
    Said on the radio that the Portugese Defense Forces use them :pac:

    and I could shown you plenty of things that the irish army needlessy waste money on also..


  • #10
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    A complete crock.


  • #11
    whippet
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,741 ✭✭✭whippet


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    A complete crock.

    in what way?


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  • #12
    ironclaw
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,004 ✭✭✭ironclaw


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    A complete crock.

    The science and theory behind it is reasonably sound but the actually savings it deliver's is complete BS. Its like Dipetane, the stuff does work but the saving isn't there. It doesn't make sense at a consumer level to be saving even 20% per week, because for me that would be about 12E or 624E per year. You'd easily wipe that out in other sectors of your life or indeed on the car itself (Servicing etc) And thats assuming 20%, which is utterly impossible by my reading.

    Still, people in this country buy diesels because its cheaper at the pumps. So I can see these flying off the shelves.


  • #13
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    whippet wrote: »
    in what way?

    Firstly the ad copy deliberately mixes up fuel cells with this silly machine. A fuel cell generates electricity from Hydrogen. This yoke uses electricity generated by the engine to make hydrogen (supposedly).

    Next, it pretends that adding the hydrogen it generates will increase fuel efficiency by 10-30%. It is scientifically possible to do that, by adding enough H2 to produce 10-30% of the motor's power- but that's not what this machine claims to do, it claims that the "minute" amount of hydrogen acts as a catalyst to ensure complete combustion of the rest of the fuel. This is nonsense with no science behind it whatever. H2 gas is a highly reactive compound, the exact opposite of a catalyst.

    so:

    1) the system doesn't pretend to generate enough H2 to do anything real (if it could, it would use more power than it generates)

    and

    2) If it all worked, they would not be trying to confuse buyers by pretending it's a fuel cell which is a real thing.


  • #14
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    ironclaw wrote: »
    The science and theory behind it is reasonably sound

    No, it isn't. If you added enough H2 to replace 20% of your fuel, you could save 20% of your fuel. Adding a minute amount can only make a minute difference.

    Now, some of the fancier HHO systems include a lot of remapping and monkeying with sensors. I'm sure you can get savings this way, but it's shag all to do with HHO.


  • #15
    R.O.R
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,734 ✭✭✭✭R.O.R


    There's a big thread somewhere on use of HHO in engines, with one of the posters saying that he's working on something to come to the market - wonder if this is the product.

    Found it - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056395286, turns out I started it as a bit of a p1ss take.

    Science behind it seems comprehensible (ish)


  • #16
    ironclaw
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,004 ✭✭✭ironclaw


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    No, it isn't. If you added enough H2 to replace 20% of your fuel, you could save 20% of your fuel. Adding a minute amount can only make a minute difference.

    Now, some of the fancier HHO systems include a lot of remapping and monkeying with sensors. I'm sure you can get savings this way, but it's shag all to do with HHO.

    I never said the results or output was sound, I said the theory and science was. Yes by adding hydrogen to the burn you can in theory reduce the fuel burn. But this apparatus won't, as you rightly said, produce enough to make the 'savings' (or whatever way PR spin it) it promises.


  • #17
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    R.O.R wrote: »
    Science behind it seems comprehensible

    Comprehensible but wrong.


  • #18
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    ironclaw wrote: »
    I never said the results or output was sound, I said the theory and science was.

    I just invented a system which clamps a lump of coal in the air filter - coal is flammable, so it could act as a catalyst and improve fuel consumption in the same way as HHO.

    Science!


  • #19
    Chimaera
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,652 ✭✭✭Chimaera


    HHO systems are a pile of crap. I don't really have the time to go through why, but here are articles from some people who did:

    Popular Mechanics: http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/alternative-fuel/gas-mileage/4310717-2

    HowStuffWorks: http://auto.howstuffworks.com/hho-system2.htm

    (I was surprised Snopes didn't have an entry on this.)

    The bottom line with any of these systems is that the consume more energy to power the electrolysis process than is recovered by the combustion of the hydrogen gas generated (2nd Law of Thermodynamics). They also don't generate enough hydrogen to displace a useful quantity of fuel and allow savings in that manner.


  • #20
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Chimaera wrote: »
    They also don't generate enough hydrogen to displace a useful quantity of fuel and allow savings in that manner.

    Ah, but this system doesn't even pretend to, and boasts that it only generates a minute amount of hydrogen.

    How does it work?

    Catalysis!


  • #21
    Ultimate Cell
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2 ✭Ultimate Cell


    Hi Guys and Gals,
    We are delighted that everyone is talking about our new and exciting product, and we are always very eager to chat to anyone who has any questions or concerns about any aspect of the product design, installation or stated fuel saving/ emission reductions.
    Are you can probably imagine our team are extremely busy since the product has been highlighted right across Europe on euronews and also in the Irish media today.
    Therefore we would advise customers to please check out the technical details on our website and please forward any questions or concerns that you may have to our team either by phone or email.
    This unit is unique in its design and application, and should not be confused with products that have tried and failed in other countries. It is Irish design and made in Portugal.
    We would also like to take the opportunity to point out that the Ultimate Cell does come with a full 30 day complete satisfaction money back guarantee and the unit is also warranted for twelve months. The units are also fully insured and are CE and ISQ approved.
    We look forward to hearing from any customers with genuine queries and are more than happy to chat for hours on the theories behind our product.
    The Ultimate Cell Irish Team


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  • #22
    Chimaera
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,652 ✭✭✭Chimaera


    Ultimate Cell wrote: »
    Hi Guys and Gals,
    We are delighted that everyone is talking about our new and exciting product, and we are always very eager to chat to anyone who has any questions or concerns about any aspect of the product design, installation or stated fuel saving/ emission reductions.
    Are you can probably imagine our team are extremely busy since the product has been highlighted right across Europe on euronews and also in the Irish media today.
    Therefore we would advise customers to please check out the technical details on our website and please forward any questions or concerns that you may have to our team either by phone or email.
    This unit is unique in its design and application, and should not be confused with products that have tried and failed in other countries. It is Irish design and made in Portugal.
    We would also like to take the opportunity to point out that the Ultimate Cell does come with a full 30 day complete satisfaction money back guarantee and the unit is also warranted for twelve months. The units are also fully insured and are CE and ISQ approved.
    We look forward to hearing from any customers with genuine queries and are more than happy to chat for hours on the theories behind our product.
    The Ultimate Cell Irish Team

    Can you please provide a detailed and referenced technical analysis which shows how your product achieves the claims made for it. Remember, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence! Oh and please don't use any excuses along the lines of "it's too technical to explain". There are enough scientifically educated people on this forum who will understand it.

    So far this just looks like another cynical snake oil operation intent on separating gullible people from their money.


  • #23
    BMJD
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,694 ✭✭✭BMJD


    sounds like bollox but best of luck to you

    if you want to give me one for free, I'll give an honest and comprehensive review of it here :P


  • #24
    Chimaera
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,652 ✭✭✭Chimaera


    In doing some digging on this, some curious things emerge:

    There's no company number on their website (a requirement under Irish Company Law).

    A search on the CRO website turns up nothing under Company Name or Business Name for Ultimate Cell.

    A search through patent databases reveals nothing filed under the name Ultimate Cell.


  • #25
    Popoutman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,363 ✭✭✭Popoutman


    So a typical snakeoil operation, flying under the legal radar - not surprising as the premise behind the implementation is so full of sh|t, it's squeaking.

    As shown above, if it's using electricity from either the battery or alternator for power - that's robbing power from the engine. And the volumes generated have no volumetric effect whatsoever.

    If their claims were valid, there's a phonecall from Sweden due soon...

    (note - the claims cannot be shown to be valid without contradicting 2nd Law, they are a waste of money at best and a danger to you and your car at worst).


  • #26
    Popoutman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,363 ✭✭✭Popoutman


    I also wonder if the Boards account has been registered as a business/commercial account - if they are trying to peddle wares as they appear to be here, they have to be otherwise a ban is on the offing. (see a certain Kiwi's frequent time away from Boards as a precedent)


  • #27
    Kenny Logins
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,060 ✭✭✭Kenny Logins


    Ultimate Cell wrote: »
    Hi Guys and Gals,
    We are delighted that everyone is talking about our new and exciting product, and we are always very eager to chat to anyone who has any questions or concerns about any aspect of the product design, installation or stated fuel saving/ emission reductions.
    Are you can probably imagine our team are extremely busy since the product has been highlighted right across Europe on euronews and also in the Irish media today.
    Therefore we would advise customers to please check out the technical details on our website and please forward any questions or concerns that you may have to our team either by phone or email.
    This unit is unique in its design and application, and should not be confused with products that have tried and failed in other countries. It is Irish design and made in Portugal.
    We would also like to take the opportunity to point out that the Ultimate Cell does come with a full 30 day complete satisfaction money back guarantee and the unit is also warranted for twelve months. The units are also fully insured and are CE and ISQ approved.
    We look forward to hearing from any customers with genuine queries and are more than happy to chat for hours on the theories behind our product.
    The Ultimate Cell Irish Team

    Would you be prepared to allow a boards member to run an extended test? I'd be interested to see the results.


  • #28
    Kenny Logins
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,060 ✭✭✭Kenny Logins


    Chimaera wrote: »
    In doing some digging on this, some curious things emerge:

    There's no company number on their website (a requirement under Irish Company Law).

    A search on the CRO website turns up nothing under Company Name or Business Name for Ultimate Cell.

    A search through patent databases reveals nothing filed under the name Ultimate Cell.

    It's a Portuguese device, being sold by an agent in Ireland.

    http://www.euronews.com/2014/06/17/the-ultimate-fuel-and-emission-saving-device/


  • #29
    Ultimate Cell
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2 ✭Ultimate Cell


    Hello again,

    Just to clarify,
    Ultimate cell is actually a brand name for a product which is being installed and distributed under licence by Ozone Cars and Cabs limited in Dublin ( company registration number 528753).However Thank you for bringing the detail of our website to our attention, we will rectify that as soon as possible.
    As previously stated, our website has a full technical section for potential customers or critics to explore, and if there are any remaining questions, we will be more than happy to respond to any phone call or email.
    the product has been fully tried, tested and proven in Portugal as well as here in Ireland, but again a reminder that the product comes with a full 30 day money back guarantee.

    Also just to mention, I am aware that Boards.ie is not a platform to advertise commercial products but it does allow for companies to respond to criticism from customers who are unfamiliar with a product, but yet decide to put it down anyway.

    Ozone are a young and vibrant and never shy from a challenge, therefore we would be very eager for a boards member to trial our product completely free of charge and for them to give THEIR opinion of the product along with proven data.
    Please send an email to us directly and we will arrange for this as soon as possible.
    The Ultimate Cell Team


  • #30
    Kenny Logins
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,060 ✭✭✭Kenny Logins


    As a rep for a business you might need to contact a moderator to verify your identity before posting more.

    Welcome to boards BTW.


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  • #31
    Dartz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,420 ✭✭✭Dartz


    Bollox

    Simple thermodynamics means it'll take more energy to crack the hydrogen, then will be gained from burning it again.


    Unless you start with Ammonia and have a catalyst that'll create hydrogen gas from it. There were some developments in that area recently, and ammonia is ****-easy to produce on an industrial scale that you could theoretically have an Ammonia tank in your car.

    Hydrogen would reduce the amount of carbon crud that accumulates on an engine, but there're consequences for internal lubrication and the like.


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