Ultimate Cell

Ardennes1944

Heard about this on the radio on the way to work this monring
http://www.ultimatecell.ie/

Reminds me of those 2$ cigarette lighter fuel-saving yokes on ebay but it seems to be well followed and supported at the same time.

Reduce carbon build up, fuel consumption and emissions, I'd nearly buy one to try it.
Seemingly it uses hydrogen that it feeds into the car air intake system which then reaches the combustion chamber

Alanstrainor

I see these on motoring forums in the states all the time. Just complete snake oil nonsense. Can you imagine if this magical equipment actually worked? Every new car in the country would have one, but they don't.

whippet

Alanstrainor wrote: »

I see these on motoring forums in the states all the time. Just complete snake oil nonsense. Can you imagine if this magical equipment actually worked? Every new car in the country would have one, but they don't.

Hydrogen Hybrid has been attempted many times and the real problem is that the theory disregards the laws of thermodynamics.

However, it is possible to use HHO systems to reduce fuel consumption and to clean emissions if certain problems are over come

- efficient electrolysis
- quality of the hydrogen feed to the fuel mix
- increasing the effeciceny of the parent fuel (diesel / petrol)

All you need is a slight increase in fuel economy to make it commercially viable. I have seen a system that is giving a 10% actual reduction in consumption on a 3.0TDI engine. This is based on about 10,000 miles of normal driving. its not on the market yet as it is really for HGVs and agricultural machines but is in the very final stages of design.

PaddyFagan

At least unlike some of the out and out snake oil schemes it requires a top up - so they're saying (from) 399 + VAT for install and 45 + VAT every two years.

So a rough calculation for me is that I'd need to save 380 liters of fuel over 4 years to break even, a little less than 2l a week - I currently use about 30l a week, so I'd need about a 7% (ish) saving to justify it on that basis alone. They're quoting 10-30% savings, so maybe....

But I have to say a) I'm note sure it works and b) given the marginal ROI from my figures I'd be very concerned that if it did work, if it shortened the life of any engine components I'd likely be in trouble.

I think the general skeptical response will go away if it can be shown to work - but even then I'd want 5-10 years of analysis of wear rates on engine components before I'd consider it.

Paddy

Kenny Logins

Alanstrainor wrote: »

I see these on motoring forums in the states all the time. Just complete snake oil nonsense. Can you imagine if this magical equipment actually worked? Every new car in the country would have one, but they don't.

Oil companies conspiracy blah blah. :pac:

porsche boy

seen them a couple of times fitted to cars, no real benifit according to the owners. If your thinking that way I'd say LPG would be better value for money

Ardennes1944

Said on the radio that the Portugese Defense Forces use them :pac:

whippet

there is no way that you would get anything like 30% efficiency ... the draw from the alternator / battery will not allow for that.

the market isn't really for domestic users, take a HGV burring €2000 worth of fuel a week, a 10% saving equates to a significant amount and with the HHO unit I have seen it more or less negates the need for AdBlue creating a further saving.

porsche boy

Ardennes1944 wrote: »

Said on the radio that the Portugese Defense Forces use them :pac:

and I could shown you plenty of things that the irish army needlessy waste money on also..

Zubeneschamali

A complete crock.

whippet

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

A complete crock.

in what way?

ironclaw

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

A complete crock.

The science and theory behind it is reasonably sound but the actually savings it deliver's is complete BS. Its like Dipetane, the stuff does work but the saving isn't there. It doesn't make sense at a consumer level to be saving even 20% per week, because for me that would be about 12E or 624E per year. You'd easily wipe that out in other sectors of your life or indeed on the car itself (Servicing etc) And thats assuming 20%, which is utterly impossible by my reading.

Still, people in this country buy diesels because its cheaper at the pumps. So I can see these flying off the shelves.

Zubeneschamali

whippet wrote: »

in what way?

Firstly the ad copy deliberately mixes up fuel cells with this silly machine. A fuel cell generates electricity from Hydrogen. This yoke uses electricity generated by the engine to make hydrogen (supposedly).

Next, it pretends that adding the hydrogen it generates will increase fuel efficiency by 10-30%. It is scientifically possible to do that, by adding enough H2 to produce 10-30% of the motor's power- but that's not what this machine claims to do, it claims that the "minute" amount of hydrogen acts as a catalyst to ensure complete combustion of the rest of the fuel. This is nonsense with no science behind it whatever. H2 gas is a highly reactive compound, the exact opposite of a catalyst.

so:

1) the system doesn't pretend to generate enough H2 to do anything real (if it could, it would use more power than it generates)

and

2) If it all worked, they would not be trying to confuse buyers by pretending it's a fuel cell which is a real thing.

Zubeneschamali

ironclaw wrote: »

The science and theory behind it is reasonably sound

No, it isn't. If you added enough H2 to replace 20% of your fuel, you could save 20% of your fuel. Adding a minute amount can only make a minute difference.

Now, some of the fancier HHO systems include a lot of remapping and monkeying with sensors. I'm sure you can get savings this way, but it's shag all to do with HHO.

R.O.R

There's a big thread somewhere on use of HHO in engines, with one of the posters saying that he's working on something to come to the market - wonder if this is the product.

Found it - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056395286, turns out I started it as a bit of a p1ss take.

Science behind it seems comprehensible (ish)

ironclaw

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

No, it isn't. If you added enough H2 to replace 20% of your fuel, you could save 20% of your fuel. Adding a minute amount can only make a minute difference.

Now, some of the fancier HHO systems include a lot of remapping and monkeying with sensors. I'm sure you can get savings this way, but it's shag all to do with HHO.

I never said the results or output was sound, I said the theory and science was. Yes by adding hydrogen to the burn you can in theory reduce the fuel burn. But this apparatus won't, as you rightly said, produce enough to make the 'savings' (or whatever way PR spin it) it promises.

Zubeneschamali

R.O.R wrote: »

Science behind it seems comprehensible

Comprehensible but wrong.

Zubeneschamali

ironclaw wrote: »

I never said the results or output was sound, I said the theory and science was.

I just invented a system which clamps a lump of coal in the air filter - coal is flammable, so it could act as a catalyst and improve fuel consumption in the same way as HHO.

Science!

Chimaera

HHO systems are a pile of crap. I don't really have the time to go through why, but here are articles from some people who did:

Popular Mechanics: http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/alternative-fuel/gas-mileage/4310717-2

HowStuffWorks: http://auto.howstuffworks.com/hho-system2.htm

(I was surprised Snopes didn't have an entry on this.)

The bottom line with any of these systems is that the consume more energy to power the electrolysis process than is recovered by the combustion of the hydrogen gas generated (2nd Law of Thermodynamics). They also don't generate enough hydrogen to displace a useful quantity of fuel and allow savings in that manner.

Zubeneschamali

Chimaera wrote: »

They also don't generate enough hydrogen to displace a useful quantity of fuel and allow savings in that manner.

Ah, but this system doesn't even pretend to, and boasts that it only generates a minute amount of hydrogen.

How does it work?

Catalysis!

Ultimate Cell

Hi Guys and Gals,
We are delighted that everyone is talking about our new and exciting product, and we are always very eager to chat to anyone who has any questions or concerns about any aspect of the product design, installation or stated fuel saving/ emission reductions.
Are you can probably imagine our team are extremely busy since the product has been highlighted right across Europe on euronews and also in the Irish media today.
Therefore we would advise customers to please check out the technical details on our website and please forward any questions or concerns that you may have to our team either by phone or email.
This unit is unique in its design and application, and should not be confused with products that have tried and failed in other countries. It is Irish design and made in Portugal.
We would also like to take the opportunity to point out that the Ultimate Cell does come with a full 30 day complete satisfaction money back guarantee and the unit is also warranted for twelve months. The units are also fully insured and are CE and ISQ approved.
We look forward to hearing from any customers with genuine queries and are more than happy to chat for hours on the theories behind our product.
The Ultimate Cell Irish Team

Chimaera

Ultimate Cell wrote: »

Hi Guys and Gals,
We are delighted that everyone is talking about our new and exciting product, and we are always very eager to chat to anyone who has any questions or concerns about any aspect of the product design, installation or stated fuel saving/ emission reductions.
Are you can probably imagine our team are extremely busy since the product has been highlighted right across Europe on euronews and also in the Irish media today.
Therefore we would advise customers to please check out the technical details on our website and please forward any questions or concerns that you may have to our team either by phone or email.
This unit is unique in its design and application, and should not be confused with products that have tried and failed in other countries. It is Irish design and made in Portugal.
We would also like to take the opportunity to point out that the Ultimate Cell does come with a full 30 day complete satisfaction money back guarantee and the unit is also warranted for twelve months. The units are also fully insured and are CE and ISQ approved.
We look forward to hearing from any customers with genuine queries and are more than happy to chat for hours on the theories behind our product.
The Ultimate Cell Irish Team

Can you please provide a detailed and referenced technical analysis which shows how your product achieves the claims made for it. Remember, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence! Oh and please don't use any excuses along the lines of "it's too technical to explain". There are enough scientifically educated people on this forum who will understand it.

So far this just looks like another cynical snake oil operation intent on separating gullible people from their money.

BMJD

sounds like bollox but best of luck to you

if you want to give me one for free, I'll give an honest and comprehensive review of it here :P

Chimaera

In doing some digging on this, some curious things emerge:

There's no company number on their website (a requirement under Irish Company Law).

A search on the CRO website turns up nothing under Company Name or Business Name for Ultimate Cell.

A search through patent databases reveals nothing filed under the name Ultimate Cell.

Popoutman

So a typical snakeoil operation, flying under the legal radar - not surprising as the premise behind the implementation is so full of sh|t, it's squeaking.

As shown above, if it's using electricity from either the battery or alternator for power - that's robbing power from the engine. And the volumes generated have no volumetric effect whatsoever.

If their claims were valid, there's a phonecall from Sweden due soon...

(note - the claims cannot be shown to be valid without contradicting 2nd Law, they are a waste of money at best and a danger to you and your car at worst).

Popoutman

I also wonder if the Boards account has been registered as a business/commercial account - if they are trying to peddle wares as they appear to be here, they have to be otherwise a ban is on the offing. (see a certain Kiwi's frequent time away from Boards as a precedent)

Kenny Logins

Ultimate Cell wrote: »

Hi Guys and Gals,
We are delighted that everyone is talking about our new and exciting product, and we are always very eager to chat to anyone who has any questions or concerns about any aspect of the product design, installation or stated fuel saving/ emission reductions.
Are you can probably imagine our team are extremely busy since the product has been highlighted right across Europe on euronews and also in the Irish media today.
Therefore we would advise customers to please check out the technical details on our website and please forward any questions or concerns that you may have to our team either by phone or email.
This unit is unique in its design and application, and should not be confused with products that have tried and failed in other countries. It is Irish design and made in Portugal.
We would also like to take the opportunity to point out that the Ultimate Cell does come with a full 30 day complete satisfaction money back guarantee and the unit is also warranted for twelve months. The units are also fully insured and are CE and ISQ approved.
We look forward to hearing from any customers with genuine queries and are more than happy to chat for hours on the theories behind our product.
The Ultimate Cell Irish Team

Would you be prepared to allow a boards member to run an extended test? I'd be interested to see the results.

Kenny Logins

Chimaera wrote: »

In doing some digging on this, some curious things emerge:

There's no company number on their website (a requirement under Irish Company Law).

A search on the CRO website turns up nothing under Company Name or Business Name for Ultimate Cell.

A search through patent databases reveals nothing filed under the name Ultimate Cell.

It's a Portuguese device, being sold by an agent in Ireland.

http://www.euronews.com/2014/06/17/the-ultimate-fuel-and-emission-saving-device/

Ultimate Cell

Hello again,

Just to clarify,
Ultimate cell is actually a brand name for a product which is being installed and distributed under licence by Ozone Cars and Cabs limited in Dublin ( company registration number 528753).However Thank you for bringing the detail of our website to our attention, we will rectify that as soon as possible.
As previously stated, our website has a full technical section for potential customers or critics to explore, and if there are any remaining questions, we will be more than happy to respond to any phone call or email.
the product has been fully tried, tested and proven in Portugal as well as here in Ireland, but again a reminder that the product comes with a full 30 day money back guarantee.

Also just to mention, I am aware that Boards.ie is not a platform to advertise commercial products but it does allow for companies to respond to criticism from customers who are unfamiliar with a product, but yet decide to put it down anyway.

Ozone are a young and vibrant and never shy from a challenge, therefore we would be very eager for a boards member to trial our product completely free of charge and for them to give THEIR opinion of the product along with proven data.
Please send an email to us directly and we will arrange for this as soon as possible.
The Ultimate Cell Team

Kenny Logins

As a rep for a business you might need to contact a moderator to verify your identity before posting more.

Welcome to boards BTW.

Dartz

Bollox

Simple thermodynamics means it'll take more energy to crack the hydrogen, then will be gained from burning it again.


Unless you start with Ammonia and have a catalyst that'll create hydrogen gas from it. There were some developments in that area recently, and ammonia is ****-easy to produce on an industrial scale that you could theoretically have an Ammonia tank in your car.

Hydrogen would reduce the amount of carbon crud that accumulates on an engine, but there're consequences for internal lubrication and the like.

Chimaera

Ultimate Cell wrote: »

Hello again,

Just to clarify,
Ultimate cell is actually a brand name for a product which is being installed and distributed under licence by Ozone Cars and Cabs limited in Dublin ( company registration number 528753).However Thank you for bringing the detail of our website to our attention, we will rectify that as soon as possible.
As previously stated, our website has a full technical section for potential customers or critics to explore, and if there are any remaining questions, we will be more than happy to respond to any phone call or email.
the product has been fully tried, tested and proven in Portugal as well as here in Ireland, but again a reminder that the product comes with a full 30 day money back guarantee.

Also just to mention, I am aware that Boards.ie is not a platform to advertise commercial products but it does allow for companies to respond to criticism from customers who are unfamiliar with a product, but yet decide to put it down anyway.

Ozone are a young and vibrant and never shy from a challenge, therefore we would be very eager for a boards member to trial our product completely free of charge and for them to give THEIR opinion of the product along with proven data.
Please send an email to us directly and we will arrange for this as soon as possible.
The Ultimate Cell Team

I've read the 'Technical' section on your site. It's full of the usual pseudo-scientific crap that accompanies HHO devices. What I'm requesting is detailed technical analysis, citing specific scientific principles and literature, showing exactly how the device achieves the stated performance. If you can't provide this, I'll have to assume that it's the usual HHO rubbish.

colm_mcm

Until even one car manufacturer (who are all mad keen to produce cleaner cars) adopts this I'll remain skeptical/convinced this is nonsense.

ironclaw

@Ultimate Cell, do you have any peer reviews papers? Academically reviewed that is.

Zaph

Ultimate Cell, as you are posting on behalf of a company I have to ask you to refrain from posting any further until you have obtained a verified rep account from the guys in the office. They can be contacted at reps@boards.ie

Please note that further posts without having first obtained a verified rep account will result in a siteban.

Tail Docker

Ultimate Cell wrote: »

Hello again,

Just to clarify,
Ultimate cell is actually a brand name for a product which is being installed and distributed under licence by Ozone Cars and Cabs limited in Dublin ( company registration number 528753).However Thank you for bringing the detail of our website to our attention, we will rectify that as soon as possible.
As previously stated, our website has a full technical section for potential customers or critics to explore, and if there are any remaining questions, we will be more than happy to respond to any phone call or email.
the product has been fully tried, tested and proven in Portugal as well as here in Ireland, but again a reminder that the product comes with a full 30 day money back guarantee.

Also just to mention, I am aware that Boards.ie is not a platform to advertise commercial products but it does allow for companies to respond to criticism from customers who are unfamiliar with a product, but yet decide to put it down anyway.

Ozone are a young and vibrant and never shy from a challenge, therefore we would be very eager for a boards member to trial our product completely free of charge and for them to give THEIR opinion of the product along with proven data.
Please send an email to us directly and we will arrange for this as soon as possible.
The Ultimate Cell Team

A young and vibrant what?

skibum

Tail Docker wrote: »

A young and vibrant what?

bunch of chancers eager to separate gullible gobsh1tes from their money

Tail Docker

ironclaw wrote: »

@Ultimate Cell, do you have any peer reviews papers? Academically reviewed that is.

Possibly. But that begs the question who their peers are.

If they are the people selling "engine repair oils" or "magnetic fuel enhancers" then possibly a peer review might not be as useful as you'd imagine.

If this is indeed a genuine product breakthrough, then this is fantastic. Great news for all motorists worldwide, ahem.

Zubeneschamali

BMJD wrote: »

if you want to give me one for free, I'll give an honest and comprehensive review of it here :P

I'll give you one right now:

This product, as advertised on the website, generates a minute amount of hydrogen gas using power from the battery. It adds the gas to the air intake of the engine.

This has no measurable effect on power, emissions or fuel consumption, fortunately, since if it did, it would make them worse.

Popoutman

Tail Docker wrote: »

Possibly. But that begs the question who their peers are.

If they are the people selling "engine repair oils" or "magnetic fuel enhancers" then possibly a peer review might not be as useful as you'd imagine.

Though there is a specific idea of a peer-reviewed journal, and uneducated salescritters can generally never be part of a peer reviewing group, as the science behind the tech here is not a sales topic but a technical topic. This leads into the idea of the "impact value" of the journals, but that's a discussion for another forum

Tail Docker

Popoutman wrote: »

Though there is a specific idea of a peer-reviewed journal, and uneducated salescritters can generally never be part of a peer reviewing group, as the science behind the tech here is not a sales topic but a technical topic. This leads into the idea of the "impact value" of the journals, but that's a discussion for another forum

I have read this twice. Neither time worked. I'll try again.

Guy:Incognito

Lads, calm down. These lads are top scienticians in their field of scienceology (not to be confused with scientology)

whizbang

Is it HO they are producing? That is a catalyst, and may have some merit in a scientific way, but its nasty stuff.

Tail Docker

whizbang wrote: »

Is it HO they are producing? That is a catalyst, and may have some merit in a scientific way, but its nasty stuff.

Not nearly as bad as BO, I had that in my car last week and it was awful. Took three magic trees to get rid of it.

Popoutman

Tail Docker wrote: »

I have read this twice. Neither time worked. I'll try again.

Sorry - I'll re-phrase.
Journals that publish peer-reviewed articles are "ranked" according to their impact factor which is one way of seeing how useful or important a journal is regarded by the scientific community. As an example, a botanist's paper published in "Nature" would be regarded as being a better academic result than having the exact same paper published in e.g. "The Journal of Irish Bog Beetles" (made up name naturally). Papers published in high-impact journals tend to be better regarded as the process of peer review in the high-impact journals tends to be more rigorous and those high impact journals generally only take the pest of the research papers.

Regarding any papers that may be referenced as "proof" by this particular group of snake-oil salesman - the journals doing the publishing may need to be examined for their validity. It's been done before that pseudoscience bullsh|t "research" was publishable in magazines with sciencey-sounding names and pictures of people in white coats and in labs, to try and fool to average person that there were real academic journals. They don't stand up to scrutiny though.

It's something to be aware of when people want to sell you something that appears borderline on the credibility stakes.

Zubeneschamali

Popoutman wrote: »

Regarding any papers that may be referenced as "proof" by this particular group of snake-oil salesman

I'll predict that any support that they reference will turn out to be for fuel cells, ordinary electrolysis or burning hydrogen as fuel - all "Hydrogen technology", none at all relevant.

Getting 30% efficiency using HHO as a catalyst in the combustion chamber will not be supported in any peer-reviewed research because it is nonsense. Ordinary motors do not dump 30% of their fuel unburnt down the the exhaust pipe.

Ardennes1944

The owner was on RedFm this morning, was an interesting listen nonetheless. although he "bigged" it up almost too much

Zubeneschamali

Ardennes1944 wrote: »

he "bigged" it up almost too much

I think you have to be able to show loss or damage to complain about false advertising. I'd say that's what the money-back guarantee is for: no-one can complain about false advertising if they can get their money back as they've suffered no loss or damage.

ironclaw

I've reached out to Ultimate Cell to do a test as part of a video series we are drafting. Haven't received a reply as of yet but most interested if they are reading here.

CabDriver

I got one of those Ultimatecells fitted recently. After putting through a full tank of diesel I found that if anything my fuel consumption was slightly worse. I took it back to them and they tweaked it for me, but after putting through another full tank my fuel consumption was worse still. After this I demanded they take it out and give my money back. They tried to talk me into sticking with it but I was having none of it. Complete waste of time IMO.

weddingcar.ie

Hi All
I have been thinking about getting one of these but having second thoughts now after reading all the replies.
I see Cab man had no joy but has anyone else had it fitted. I use €250 per week of diesel in my taxi so a 20% saving would be huge and worthwhile.
All replies will help