State of Irish Golf Membership

GreeBo · 23-07-2014 03:33PM

Shiraz 4.99 wrote: »

Golf clubs, like pubs before them, have suffered the lost generation once mortgage & kids come along.
Outside of the costs, fathers cannot justify leaving herself stuck at home on a Saturday with 3 kids while he has a 5 hour fourball followed by 5 or 6 pints.
It's been a societal shift as much as a financial decision for many former members.

I am one of the above & can't wait for the young lad to turn 10 so I can bring him out with me with his siblings to follow.
Then I'll be looking into he value of a family membership.

Golf clubs have to factor in that they will loose a large tranche of 30 somethings for a decade but there's nothing they can do about it.

Very true.
But this is why I think being a member rather than a green fee player is more important.
Twenty somethings are playing golf wherever it suits them, they hit 30, settle down and dont play regularly for 5-8 years.
Then they want to go back to play, all the mates etc have moved on and no one wants to drive 2 hours to play golf.
Thats when the benefits of still being a member of the same local club kick in. You can wander down at any time and get out with a like minded bunch of people, make friends, often lifelong friends.

blackwhite · 23-07-2014 05:15PM

moycullen14 wrote: »

For me, the benefits are quite simple:
It's very near to home

Being able to mosey up for a few holes at 8pm on a summers evening.

I've a wife and two kids who play so family membership works out quite reasonable.

I get to ndecide when I play, no-one else.

I know I would play very little golf if I wasn't a club member

To add to the list

Having a proper handicap.
Being able to play in competitions.

Zardoz · 23-07-2014 05:22PM

Shiraz 4.99 wrote: »

Outside of the costs, fathers cannot justify leaving herself stuck at home on a Saturday with 3 kids while he has a 5 hour fourball followed by 5 or 6 pints.

Just do what my Dad used to do when we were kids ,bring them with you to the practice ground and let them hit a few balls .
Better yet we used to even play a bit of soccer in the corner of the practice ground as well .
Kill 3 birds with one stone.
Ah the good old days .

FixdePitchmark · 23-07-2014 05:35PM

I'm only a 5 day member.

I like to play a bit of society golf and some other courses at weekends etc. I think it is better for your game in the long run. And when I am off at a weekend - it is a rare enough thing, so I'm tied up with family etc.

Being a 5 day member , you don't get into the full club scene. It probably doesn't help. But have found the club a bit cliquey. In fairness , it is sort of understandable as lads are in the club years and some have known each other for life.

In fact - I've found some members a bit unfriendly , if I'm being honest

Society has changed too - and most golf events you go to , or club events it is lads in their late 50s an 60s. This idea of a lad going off and playing for 4.5 hours and being away for 5-6 hours is not what most lads I know would or could do at a weekend. It could be the only day they have time off with kids and wife. etc.

I find lads my age , have to be big , big into their golf to join a golf club. I've a feeling , during the good years - lads I work with for example, joined clubs as it was the thing to do, even if they were only slightly into golf. These lads are gone - most Irish households have done a full review of household expenses - Golf you only played 30 odd times a year is gone before Sky. Particularly if you were playing in a society too.

The society golf scene is the place these lads are going now. 10 to 12 outings a year , a few pints after and a meal. Also , more fun, less formal and not too serious.

I think on here we look at golf - from a serious point of view - serious golfers, into club teams etc.

I know on here , we/some sort of look down on that sort of golf.

But - I'm beginning to think that we are the 10 %.

I've 12 friends "playing" golf - and for them they are perfectly happy with their lot and would laugh if you told them all about lads chasing buffers.

golfwallah · 23-07-2014 10:49PM

The number and variety of views on the state of golf membership in Ireland is just one indicator or how segmented the market has become since the end of the Celtic Tiger.

Before that, you could have any type of membership you wanted, provided you paid an entrance fee and prices for membership and green fees weren’t easily affordable either – a sellers market!

Oh how a lot of things have changed - especially as regards time availability and affordability for the “missing golf generation” of 25 - 45 year olds. Yet some things remain the same – e.g. the desire among many existing members that new members should have to pay the same as they did.

The same data on changing market needs will be viewed by different people in different ways, so it is extremely difficult and slow to bring about the changes needed in some clubs – just to remain in business. And other clubs with declining revenues will suffer deterioration in standards or closure (as is already happening).

So what do you do? – wait and see, tweak a bit here and there or take a fundamental look at the market, develop a plan, get member support and implement it.

I believe clubs have more than one option (i.e. there’s nothing we can do except wait for competing clubs to go out of business) and there’s plenty of published material around for those who are interested in giving it a try, e.g. on GUI or English Golfing Union sites.

Shiraz 4.99 · 24-07-2014 09:35AM

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

The society golf scene is the place these lads are going now. 10 to 12 outings a year , a few pints after and a meal. Also , more fun, less formal and not too serious.

Society golf has meets the needs of the casual once a month golfer perfectly.
He's getting to play a different course every outing, the quality of which have really improved as the competition for societies has increased.
Whoever though you'd be playing Palmerstown House or the K-Club for less than 50 quid on a Saturday.

Will the clubs every win back these casual players, it's hard to know.
By creating this nomadic society form of the game have they somehow shot themselves in the foot ?.
I know plenty of guys who are no longer members but actually prefer the green fee model, pay as you play.

Clubs have to cater for both the hardline member & the disloyal bargain hunting green fee player.

Wichita Lineman · 24-07-2014 09:46AM

Society golf is far from the be all and end all and wouldnt be enough on it's own for me. The society I am in has had an alarming drop off in numbers over the last few years and it's long established and very well organised year after year. Lot's of societies who use Moate have also seen a decline in numbers.

I love being a club member, I'm involved on our committee for the last few years and I even help out in the club shop now and again. I'm willing to put time and effort into keeping our golf club alive. Not everyone is. I appreciate that eveyones economics is different and as far as that goes for myself I'm just an ordinary joe soap money wise. I definitely dont have a lot to splash around but I think continued membership is worth it.

I am worried by the continued trend towards "golf for nothing", the eternal drive to force clubs to slash prices to the bare bone. It's not the way any other business operates so why should golf clubs.

Loire · 24-07-2014 11:40AM

I think Shiraz nailed it. Men are more involved in the home now and the days of heading off for 5 hours are over for most.

I'm playing on Mon & Fri evenings after work for most of the summer. No compeitions granted but I find it's a great way to get the golf in, esp on the Fri evening as herself puts the kids to bed and opens a bottle of wine and I come back with a take-away.

I would like if a few clubs got together and allowed members to play each other's courses during member's times, perhaps for a small fee. If it was set up so that no one club would be swamped with other club's members it would be an attractive perk to retaining your membership.

Wichita Lineman · 24-07-2014 11:45AM

It's all a bit one sided really, how about a different idea?

Ask not what your club can do for you, but what you can do for your club.

TheDoc · 24-07-2014 12:13PM

Our club had a decent system for Junior players.

Your fee entitled you to a five day memebership and entry into the saturday sunday competitions once an adult member was present in the group.

You would move to intermediate for a few years, where your fee went up marginally, but still had the benefits of your normal membership from being junior.

When you went full member, the value of ALL the fees you paid in the years previous was subtracted from the joining fee, making it very manageable.

When they removed the joining fee, it just reverted to the normal pricing, but it was a good way to keep junior golfers in the club, without scaring them off with the massive joining fee.

Although the joining fee is gone now, which to me was one of the most rubbish things in golf. Pay your yearly sub and off you go. It keeps clubs competitive. We lost members last year to Roganstown, we reviewed our pricing to be more enticing, load of members came back.

Avoids clubs feeling their players should be privalaged to be members. Golf is becoming more affordable and hopefully that will increase the numbers, but its becoming less of a "club". They need to realise they need to entice custom, and keep it, Which is a good thing in keeping rates and costs competitive.

I believe our club has moved to limit the "powers" of captains and those sort of positions, and the club being ran by actual experienced business people. Which makes sense, having captains and the likes making decisions with financial impact, with no previous experience of this sort of decision making, and in a role for a year, is mental stuff and why so many clubs are in bits.

moycullen14 · 24-07-2014 01:33PM

TheDoc wrote: »

Although the joining fee is gone now, which to me was one of the most rubbish things in golf. Pay your yearly sub and off you go. It keeps clubs competitive. We lost members last year to Roganstown, we reviewed our pricing to be more enticing, load of members came back.

Avoids clubs feeling their players should be privalaged to be members. Golf is becoming more affordable and hopefully that will increase the numbers, but its becoming less of a "club". They need to realise they need to entice custom, and keep it, Which is a good thing in keeping rates and costs competitive.

I disagree with this. Simple economics was the reason for the joining fee. It was a way of matching demand to supply. Demand too high? Increase the joining fee to the point where the market clears.

The problem now is that the demand is way down, below the point where any joining fee is possible for most clubs. The problem with reducing costs to the point where people will join is that a) it is uneconomic and b) it encourages flipping.

Cheaper and cheaper golf might be available in the short run but not in the long run because courses will be gone.

Members are effectively subsidising the golf of the green-fees only and the serial flippers. A time will come when the subsidising will stop and costs will rise for everybody.

mike12 · 24-07-2014 02:23PM

Hi,
A lot of the posters have said that all their mates are paying green fees so is their not a balance less money from membership but more money from green fees.
Think we will see clubs join together say 3 clubs like St. Margrets, Hollywood lakes and Roganstown had a membership where you can play all 3 courses they save costs on sharing machinery for maintenance.

Wichita Lineman · 24-07-2014 02:29PM

"Cheaper and cheaper golf might be available in the short run but not in the long run because courses will be gone.

Members are effectively subsidising the golf of the green-fees only and the serial flippers. A time will come when the subsidising will stop and costs will rise for everybody. "

Agree, agree, agree! The members of clubs can sometimes get a raw deal on here but we are still helping keep our clubs open for the 'roamers'. I dont care what anyone thinks - playing somewhere casually once or twice a year is not going to keep it open!

The_Architect · 24-07-2014 04:04PM

Andy Dunne & Moycullen - Correct

moycullen14 · 24-07-2014 04:27PM

The_Architect wrote: »

Andy Dunne & Moycullen - Correct

It's like the newspaper business. The dynamics have changed because people will no longer pay - at least they'll no longer pay the provider - for content that is available on line for 'free'.

Shouting at the providers to 'change with the times' is not going to work. The new business model when it comes will almost certainly not suit anyone not willing to pay.

We'll be sorry when they're gone.

wally79 · 24-07-2014 04:29PM

moycullen14 wrote: »

Demand too high? Increase the joining fee to the point where the market clears.

Or (in the case of some clubs but not necessarily all) increase the joining fee to 1) milk as much money from people as possible and 2) exclude lower earning sections of society

Then when times get tough wonder why these same people don't fancy joining a club that wouldn't have had them as a member when times were good.

As a relatively new golfer who wasn't looking for a club previously the above is not how I feel but is a point of view I have heard aired by people I have played with.

On another point previous poster also mentioned the stance some members have that because they paid a joining fee then new members should have to.

Is this attitude common in clubs? Does it create animosity?

Russman · 24-07-2014 04:35PM

wally79 wrote: »

On another point previous poster also mentioned the stance some members have that because they paid a joining fee then new members should have to.

Is this attitude common in clubs? Does it create animosity?

I'm sure there are some that feel like that, but I'd say (or hope) they are in a tiny minority. Its a bit like I paid x amount for my house and the neighbour paid y - no point in getting hung up on it in the real world.
I'm sure members who feel that way weren't complaining when new members were paying double or triple what the existing members paid in previous years.

moycullen14 · 24-07-2014 04:44PM

wally79 wrote: »

Or (in the case of some clubs but not necessarily all) increase the joining fee to 1) milk as much money from people as possible and 2) exclude lower earning sections of society

Then when times get tough wonder why these same people don't fancy joining a club that wouldn't have had them as a member when times were good.

As a relatively new golfer who wasn't looking for a club previously the above is not how I feel but is a point of view I have heard aired by people I have played with.

On another point previous poster also mentioned the stance some members have that because they paid a joining fee then new members should have to.

Is this attitude common in clubs? Does it create animosity?

I'm not so sure people would get that angsty about it.

Douglas in Cork, for example, was notoriously difficult to get into over the years. Yet when they opened their membership recently they were flooded with applicants. Why? Because it suited people.

I think existing members are savvy enough to realise that every new member is saving them money and, more importantly, preserving the club.

You'll always get some gobsh**tes though!

wally79 · 24-07-2014 04:56PM

Yeah you get gobsh**tes in all walks of life unfortunately.

Good to hear that they are in the minority.

Was worried there would be a defensive reaction to that post from golf club members but it's good to see people having a rational discussion on boards for a change

ShivasIrons · 24-07-2014 09:07PM

ssbob wrote: »

I personally have no interest in 9/12 hole events, I don't know why but I always am trying to beat my self over 18 holes ie. beat my previous best gross, that's the drive for me to get better,

However I do agree with what your saying in relation to the balls going miles etc, a simple solution would be for the R&A and USGA to increase the size of the golf ball fractionally so it wouldn't fly as far.

I still believe that a club with a good USP in a decent location can continue to do well, lets face it there are literally hundreds of thousands of golfers in Ireland. It would take a lot of work but something I noticed on a recent trip to West Cork was that the GAA complex there also houses sports physios and a public gym. For instance, rather than your standard pro shop what if halpenny of Nevada Bobs operated the Pro Shop while also incorporating the normal duties of the pro?

Anyway as mentioned by me many times, a manager I believe is the way to go.

How would Halpenny or Nevada Bobs operating the pro shop instead of the pro be good for the golf club?

wally79 · 24-07-2014 10:10PM

ShivasIrons wrote: »

How would Halpenny or Nevada Bobs operating the pro shop instead of the pro be good for the golf club?

Wouldn't it be similar to clubs outsourcing their catering. Set fee or % of profits with none of the costs

Russman · 24-07-2014 10:43PM

wally79 wrote: »

Wouldn't it be similar to clubs outsourcing their catering. Set fee or % of profits with none of the costs

From their point of view, why would halpenny or Nevada bobs do it ? Can't imagine many pro shops in clubs turning over enough sales to pay for one or two staff that would be required. Especially in a club that is struggling.

PARlance · 24-07-2014 10:45PM

The elephant in the room as I see it.

Membership levels today are at 1997 levels.
However, in 1997, there were 50 less golf clubs than there are now.
All this talk about adjusting price plans and the GUI giving financial advice assistance (not sure how much they actually do on the ground tbh) is a short - medium term thing.
The end result, as I see it, has to be that a lot more clubs will close over the short-medium term. Sad but true imo.
The GUI don't seem to address this point (50 more clubs, same membership levels) in the article. Head in sand?

Making golf cheaper and a stabilising of the economy may see a small increase in members over the next 10 years, but the unfortunate reality is that there are just too many clubs at present.

The big danger I see is that clubs will spend the next 10 or so years struggling to survive without really looking beyond that.

I'd love to know the age demographic of the 170,000 golfers at present.
How many are 50+, 55+, 60+, 65+?
I would guess a very high %, would half a clubs members be over 50 years old?
I would guess they are.
So, what's going to happen in 15, 20, 25 years when these guys stop playing en masse!
I certainly don't think that there'll be the youngsters there to replace them.
That's not a problem that can be solved by adjusting prices etc.
The GUI are talking a game about attracting youth... I can't see a lot going on.

Russman · 24-07-2014 10:50PM

PARlance wrote: »

Membership levels today are at 1997 levels.
However, in 1997, there were 50 less golf clubs than there are now.

That's it in a nutshell, there are simply too many clubs for the market.

Plus there's an element of people's expectations being too high at times, everyone wants their course to be like the K Club because that's what they were used to playing in the good times.

FixdePitchmark · 24-07-2014 10:59PM

Down in the club this evening - event on, so packed. Great to see.

3 lads under 40.
40 others in bar well over 50 and 60.

It just doesn't add up.

Loire · 25-07-2014 08:34AM

Russman wrote: »

That's it in a nutshell, there are simply too many clubs for the market.

Plus there's an element of people's expectations being too high at times, everyone wants their course to be like the K Club because that's what they were used to playing in the good times.

+1

I remember reading an interview with Michael Smurfit a number of years ago. He was saying how too many courses were being built at the time. Obviously he has/had a vested interest in keeping the number of courses down, but he was essentially right.

PARlance · 25-07-2014 09:24AM

Russman wrote: »

That's it in a nutshell, there are simply too many clubs for the market.

Plus there's an element of people's expectations being too high at times, everyone wants their course to be like the K Club because that's what they were used to playing in the good times.

I think that's the short-medium term problem in a nutshell.

The longer term problem, and a bigger problem in my eyes, is the problem represented by Fix's bar.... Sad/morbid enough thought, but fast forward 20 years and those guys in the bar won't be members and I really can't see that chunk of golfers being replaced, in the same numbers, by younger generations.
A club like that could lose half it's members over a relatively short period of time.

It may be a long way down the line but I would class it as a immediate problem.
That bar needs to be packed with Fanta filled f*ckers at summer camps etc for the next few decades to ensure enough will progress to sipping pints there one day.

alxmorgan · 25-07-2014 09:39AM

Do golf clubs go into schools at all I wonder ?
Just thinking if you went into a group of 10-12 year olds and offered them a free day at the club. Some practice and tuition in the morning and then a 6 hole scramble in the afternoon you would surely hook a decent portion of them into it. If I'm anything to go by all they need to do is hit one good shot and they're hooked !!

Russman · 25-07-2014 09:41AM

PARlance wrote: »

I think that's the short-medium term problem in a nutshell.

The longer term problem, and a bigger problem in my eyes, is the problem represented by Fix's bar.... Sad/morbid enough thought, but fast forward 20 years and those guys in the bar won't be members and I really can't see that chunk of golfers being replaced, in the same numbers, by younger generations.
A club like that could lose half it's members over a relatively short period of time.

It may be a long way down the line but I would class it as a immediate problem.
That bar needs to be packed with Fanta filled f*ckers at summer camps etc for the next few decades to ensure enough will progress to sipping pints there one day.

True enough, but golf clubs historically always had that as an issue, and by and large, got by. Granted this was pre the virtual abolishment of entrance fees for almost all but the perceived prestigious clubs. Not saying it should be ignored or anything like that, the more juniors the better, but I reckon that unless your mother or father play golf, a kid is very unlikely to take the game up. That's the barrier that needs to come down somehow, and IMO that will almost 100% come down to location - clubs in good locations with big catchment areas and practice facilities. Ironically these are the clubs that are very difficult or expensive to join.

If a course, like my own, is basically only accessable by car, it will always struggle. Mum or dad generally are not inclined to make a 45 minute detour on their way to and from work to drop little Seve up to the club. And as soon as little Seve shows any potential, a higher profile club will poach him anyway.

Russman · 25-07-2014 09:52AM

alxmorgan wrote: »

Do golf clubs go into schools at all I wonder ?
Just thinking if you went into a group of 10-12 year olds and offered them a free day at the club. Some practice and tuition in the morning and then a 6 hole scramble in the afternoon you would surely hook a decent portion of them into it. If I'm anything to go by all they need to do is hit one good shot and they're hooked !!

I think the GUI, or even better the clubs themselves, should take a look at some other countries and take some (not all) of their ideas on board and see how they could be applied in an Irish context.

I spent a little time at a golf club in Sweden a few years ago and the amount of juniors playing was scary, literally hundreds. It was like a million Jesper Parneviks running around ! Boys and girls mixing freely, playing together, no segregation, all getting coaching/lessons and then heading out for a 9 or 18 hole competition. All properly mannered and well behaved, but non of the stuffiness we can get in many clubs here. A really inclusive atmosphere. We could learn from them.

Unfortunately the GUI, and this might be a little harsh, seem content to bask in the glory of Rory, McDowell etc. and claim they're doing a great job, but beneath the surface things are different.

State of Irish Golf Membership

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