State of Irish Golf Membership

Kevinmarkham

A very interesting article by Al Dunsmuir

http://www.golfclubmanagement.net/2014/06/irish-golf-clubs-lost-26-members-last-7-years

I had no idea Leinster Hills had gone - I drive past it often enough.

ssbob

Kevinmarkham wrote: »

A very interesting article by Al Dunsmuir

http://www.golfclubmanagement.net/2014/06/irish-golf-clubs-lost-26-members-last-7-years

I had no idea Leinster Hills had gone - I drive past it often enough.

Interesting article and the numbers are quite staggering.

It's something I have talked about on here in the past, and still I still do not see enough being done in conjunction with schools to get more young people into the game.

To be honest I think they should focus on girls more than boys and the simple reason is that there are far more options for boys so golf will struggle to compete against the Rugby,Soccer, GAA etc whereas for young girls golf can be seen as a non-contact, fresh air sport where your child is likely to be in a very safe environment. Then as soon as night follows day, a pick up in young female membership will lead to a pick up in male membership

I am sure there are Golf Development Officers out there but to be honest in terms of coaching, it always seems to be the better golfers get the attention whereas if your local rugby club has a coaching session from Munster Rugby, all players get to take part.

Wichita Lineman

Moate are offering free junior membership to all children of all members this year. I dont know if it has had any impact yet and I would imagine it would take a few years before we see any real benefit but it's a step in the right direction.

bigtimecharlie

Kevin, agree with your comment in the article, while I haven't being able to commit to a membership, I continue to pay green fee's for the last few years. I wouldn't pay a yearly membership if only playing monthly ( shift work and a child eats into my free time).

Wonder what is the number of people who have given up the game completely since the downturn?

decko11

these figures as far as i know reflect the poll tax

so if someone say had 4 memberships and had to reduce to say 1 - they wouldnt feature as giving up membership (as they only pay one poll tax to their home club) ?

as such the real number of membership declines is likely understated ?

PARlance

decko11 wrote: »

these figures as far as i know reflect the poll tax

so if someone say had 4 memberships and had to reduce to say 1 - they wouldnt feature as giving up membership (as they only pay one poll tax to their home club) ?

as such the real number of membership declines is likely understated ?

I am not entirely sure but I believe that a multiple member as you described would have been registered with the GUI four times.
I.e If someone has a home club and an away club, I think they have two GUI cards, a card and a GUI registration for the two clubs....

If that was the case, then you could make the case the reduction is overstated and not as bad in a couple of senses.
* the second, third, fourth membership was unlikely to be a full membership and less money has left the industry than it may seem
* no golfer was "lost" to the game, it was only ever 1 person and he is still playing. The stats may read that 3 golfers dropped off.

golfwallah

Some interesting ideas on more flexible membership offerings have been put forward in Confederation of Golf in Ireland 2014 – 2020 Development Plan. A few privately owned and local authority courses already have schemes like these but I wonder how long it will be before such ideas will become more common currency in member owned golf clubs:

Ideas for Membership Packages
The CGI’s team of Golf Business and Development Officers are available to clubs to discuss this programme and the various ideas for membership which can be applied. Some of the initial strategies they will recommend include the following:

Points membership - when points are allocated to a specific sum of money e.g a player pays €200 and receives 200 membership points. These can be used in whatever way your club sees fit e.g 25 points for weekend golf, 15 points for weekday golf. Members can buy more points as the season unfolds. The more points they buy the cheaper they become. This is ideal for the member who plays golf less frequently but still wants to belong to a local club. It guarantees the club a small membership income at the start of the season rather than relying on these players to pay green fees throughout the season.

Family membership – in clubs where a lack of younger members is an issue family membership encourages younger players to stay involved for longer. Allowing a full paying husband and wife (or committed cohabitating couple) to include their children up to the age of 25 as part of the full membership for the fee of €50 will assist students and school leavers to play affordable golf.

Membership versus green fees – the value of membership compared to green fees is one of the most important calculations for members considering their renewal. It is not logical or likely that a golfer will join a club when the cost to him or her is greater than 20 standard green fees. Special offers on green fees should encourage golfers to visit at specific times of the week, day or season, when the club is naturally quieter, and the normal tariff can apply at other times.

Transition from Junior to Adult member
– in the current climate consideration should be given to earning power and financial constraints on graduates. It is difficult to jump from a reduced junior fee to full adult fee. Phased payment options are recommended to encourage juniors to transfer into full membership after graduating.

shane 007

All valid & good options IMO. There is something there for every type of member. It would be nice for all all clubs to offer all options!

For me, I would love to see more options for kids, promotions & their golf development. I think the younger golfer will be key to a club's success & assisting a youth can result in life long loyalty to that club.
Stevieob is a perfect example of that, living in Cadtleknock but member of Greystones from his youth. A great trait to have & encourage.

slave1

"Points membership - when points are allocated to a specific sum of money e.g a player pays €200 and receives 200 membership points. These can be used in whatever way your club sees fit e.g 25 points for weekend golf, 15 points for weekday golf. Members can buy more points as the season unfolds. The more points they buy the cheaper they become. This is ideal for the member who plays golf less frequently but still wants to belong to a local club. It guarantees the club a small membership income at the start of the season rather than relying on these players to pay green fees throughout the season."

Now that's a good idea

shane 007

slave1 wrote: »

"Points membership - when points are allocated to a specific sum of money e.g a player pays €200 and receives 200 membership points. These can be used in whatever way your club sees fit e.g 25 points for weekend golf, 15 points for weekday golf. Members can buy more points as the season unfolds. The more points they buy the cheaper they become. This is ideal for the member who plays golf less frequently but still wants to belong to a local club. It guarantees the club a small membership income at the start of the season rather than relying on these players to pay green fees throughout the season."

Now that's a good idea

That could be taken further where you or tourists could purchase points from GUI or such & they could be used on any golf course in Ireland. The club would reclaim from GUI when points are spent with them.
Ideal for golfers who like playing many courses, tourists, floating golfers, etc.

Clubs would still offer their regular home membership as normal, but it could be another source of income.

PARlance

slave1 wrote: »

"Points membership - when points are allocated to a specific sum of money e.g a player pays €200 and receives 200 membership points. These can be used in whatever way your club sees fit e.g 25 points for weekend golf, 15 points for weekday golf. Members can buy more points as the season unfolds. The more points they buy the cheaper they become. This is ideal for the member who plays golf less frequently but still wants to belong to a local club. It guarantees the club a small membership income at the start of the season rather than relying on these players to pay green fees throughout the season."

Now that's a good idea

Castleknock basically have this up and running for a couple of years afaik. Not sure if they due a discounted top up though. Seems to be doing very well for them.
(I know the owners got in hassle but I believe the golf club has been doing great for some time as a stand alone - ie if owners weren't drawing out of it)

The credits can be used in the pro shop or restaurant too so if you're not getting out golfing enough they won't got to waste.

yettie1701

Kevinmarkham wrote: »

A very interesting article by Al Dunsmuir

http://www.golfclubmanagement.net/2014/06/irish-golf-clubs-lost-26-members-last-7-years

I had no idea Leinster Hills had gone - I drive past it often enough.

Leinster hills is closed a good while now Kevin. Two years at least. They closed nine holes about three years ago and the other nine the following year. They should have survived easily. They were practically debt free after building the course and club house. There were initially 100 members. The problem there was a complete lack of maintenance by the owners. I was a member there for three years and it was criminal that this course closed. The greens were only cored once in that time and the owners refused to sand them saying this was a concession to golfers. The bunkers were so neglected you could putt out of them and there was thistles growing in them. Any time the members brought up any of the concerns they had with the owners they were just a nuisance. Good members just started to leave and still nothing was done to halt the slide. It just got worse and worse. It's bizarre that they invested so much time and their own money and a large farm of land and then neglect it they way they did. Now there are sheep and cattle on the old fairways.

Dtoffee

I think theres a lot more than an economic turndown causing falling membership. 10 years ago I was in a healthy club and getting a place on the timesheet was hard enough to do, today that club runs open comps all the time and still struggles to fill a sheet. A lot of my mates just gave the game up .... and the reason? cheating and the inability to compete:mad:

Clubs have to take responsibility and alas they dont do it very well. The approach taken is one of cut, cut and cut again BUT the problem is a that cutting never stopped a cheat and ultimately people ask themselves why am I paying a membership fee to play with the same three guys each week and not one of us taking anything out of the club when compared to certain individuals who are regular winners and can manage their handicap within the buffer zone at will.

The latest trick seems to be join up for a year, grab what you can and move to another club .... what are the GUI doing about that? in my view you can move once or twice, but something is wrong if a player has a different club every year. Sadly its become all about bums on seats so clubs are open to being abused by pot hunters, while loyal members are drifting away without a whisper.

I know of at least 20+ players over the age of 40 that have given up membership, their point is that they can go out and get a cheap green fee with three of their mates at any time that suits them and they know it will be an honest even game with a pint and a laugh afterwards ..... as one guy said recently: "why should I pay a grand to have the pleasure of watching the same names win at will !".

golfwallah

Dtoffee wrote: »

I think theres a lot more than an economic turndown causing falling membership. 10 years ago I was in a healthy club and getting a place on the timesheet was hard enough to do, today that club runs open comps all the time and still struggles to fill a sheet. A lot of my mates just gave the game up .... and the reason? cheating and the inability to compete:mad:

Clubs have to take responsibility and alas they dont do it very well. The approach taken is one of cut, cut and cut again BUT the problem is a that cutting never stopped a cheat and ultimately people ask themselves why am I paying a membership fee to play with the same three guys each week and not one of us taking anything out of the club when compared to certain individuals who are regular winners and can manage their handicap within the buffer zone at will.

The latest trick seems to be join up for a year, grab what you can and move to another club .... what are the GUI doing about that? in my view you can move once or twice, but something is wrong if a player has a different club every year. Sadly its become all about bums on seats so clubs are open to being abused by pot hunters, while loyal members are drifting away without a whisper.

I know of at least 20+ players over the age of 40 that have given up membership, their point is that they can go out and get a cheap green fee with three of their mates at any time that suits them and they know it will be an honest even game with a pint and a laugh afterwards ..... as one guy said recently: "why should I pay a grand to have the pleasure of watching the same names win at will !".

Of course the economic climate is not the only reason why people are not joining and re-joining golf clubs. Like any issue, there are multiple factors.

That said, most people would concede that the economic downturn, coupled with ineffective response to it by many clubs, have been the single biggest factors. This is also borne out by research, as published by the GUI / ILGU / PGA as far back as 2009 in their booklet “Promoting Golf Club Membership”.

There is no mention of cheating being a big issue, but this booklet, now followed by the CGI’s booklet mentioned in my earlier post, puts forward what the main issues are as regards falling membership numbers. They also provide suggested solutions – such as flexible membership offerings, more family friendly offerings, etc.

At the end of the day, money and time are required to play golf – both are scarce resources, for which golf has to compete in the continuing tighter financial situation. But, even with declining revenues, change hurts and it takes time for clubs to react. Existing members will want to preserve the status quo (to “protect” their investment in entrance fees and expensive annual membership fees). Time will tell but (IMO) eventually more and more clubs will have to adapt to the changed economic environment or face the even more unpalatable alternative of demise and closure.

I’m not saying cheating is not a problem – it is an issue that clubs have to constantly watch out for. And that’s where good match & handicap secretaries plus their committees come in. Consistent competition winners, who are “managing” their handicaps should be spotted through the annual review and have their handicaps reduced – as happens in our club. No the system isn’t perfect – it just requires a lot of hard work to make it work effectively!

d2ww

I think clubs need to stop shooting themselves in the foot as regards green fees.
It's about €1000 for 5 day membership in any of the non-premium clubs near me, but the weekday green fees are only €25. As a fair weather golfer, who only plays about 20 rounds a year, it's a no brainer. However, if say the GUI imposed a say, €10 levy on all green fees, then membership starts to look more attractive.

slave1

Okay, obviously there's the economic downturn but I think there are more fundamental causes of the weakening in golf membership too.
Economic taxation of married couples a few years back along with increased mortgages and commutes put a lot of married women back into the workplace that would not have been the case previously, with the increase in both parties working this places greater 'home' demand when not working, especially when the little folk come along, 5/6 hours away from the house on a Saturday or Sunday morning can destroy a lot of family time.
We had two wicked winters back to back where very little golf was possible for many, for those on the fence this could have been a deciding factor to just give it up. I have to say in counter argument that the last two summers have been great to compensate.
Most of my friends are having more kids, more than the two of a decade or so ago and with increased children comes diminished time available for golf, case in point, I gave it up for 5 years when my three were babies as they were where I wanted to be.
Too many new courses over the last 15 years diluting membership of existing courses (how many new hotel/courses popped up everywhere) along with the temporary NAMA financial support and cheap sell off.
Other sports have competed against golf, e.g. cycling has exploded as has triathlons where all you need is a road or river and you're off any time.
With the advent of new higher quality courses the Irish golfer has become more frustrated at local courses not evolved to match the USPGA standard tee boxes, greens, bunkers etc which put more pressure on these local courses.
Finally poor financial management, there are a few accountants here including myself and I can remember a few years back shaking my head at all these fancy new clubhouses going up and the cashflow forecasting that was doomed due to the whole Irish property bubble and inevitable crash, lots of golf courses would be fine and dandy today if these large capital investments were curtailed or scaled back at inception.
Golf is a great game, a great sport for all sexes and ages and we're finally getting the summers to really enjoy it, courses are struggling and it's a (predictable) shame but there's still plenty of them out there to go enjoy this great game.

slave1

d2ww wrote: »

.. However, if say the GUI imposed a say, €10 levy on all green fees, then membership starts to look more attractive.

Or put folk out of the game forever...

Kevinmarkham

yettie1701 wrote: »

Leinster hills is closed a good while now Kevin. Two years at least. They closed nine holes about three years ago and the other nine the following year. They should have survived easily. They were practically debt free after building the course and club house. There were initially 100 members. The problem there was a complete lack of maintenance by the owners. I was a member there for three years and it was criminal that this course closed. The greens were only cored once in that time and the owners refused to sand them saying this was a concession to golfers. The bunkers were so neglected you could putt out of them and there was thistles growing in them. Any time the members brought up any of the concerns they had with the owners they were just a nuisance. Good members just started to leave and still nothing was done to halt the slide. It just got worse and worse. It's bizarre that they invested so much time and their own money and a large farm of land and then neglect it they way they did. Now there are sheep and cattle on the old fairways.

Didn't know. I drive past it on way to Carlow and the signs are still up advertising membership, and you can just about see the course from the main road.
It does sound like the owners were idiots.

ssbob

A few other points I would like to make:

1. We are so lucky in Ireland with the availability of quality golf courses on our doorstep for cheap prices. I am currently in Brussels and they are looking for €80 to get onto a 9 hole course:eek: Not gonna pay that I'm afraid.
2. Clubs in dealing with the crisis have decided to cut costs but in all the wrong area's, this is the problem with volunteer committee's which change yearly. 2 examples of stupid cost cutting measures(without naming clubs):
   1. One club needed to save money so decided to let the golf club manager go therefore going forward the marketing and strategy of the club is reliant on the volunteers. This is counter productive.
   2. Another club I know reduced the green's keepers and left the management of green keeping in a members committee and for them to volunteer. While in theory this is a good idea and I would have no problem helping out. This committee are not experts and the same course has in my eyes taken a noted step backwards in the conditions of greens, fairways and bunkers.
3. I would re-iterate Slave's point above about the poor financial management. This is not helped by the committee style running of clubs. I am a firm believer that every club should have a golf club manager whose job it is to ensure the club is run in the best way possible. If it's a small club, he doesn't have to work 5 days but maybe could be incentivised.

Santa Cruz

Golf clubs competing with each other during the boom embarked on building programmes that were cosmetic and unecessary and were status projecys for the Club Captains, increased membership fees and introduced levies, increased green fees and alienated the society members who wished to play the course, Off course income hit by drunken driving legislation as invariably transport is needed to get to a golf club. All factors which have contributed to lack of income when the recession came. There are a number of courses which will be returning to agricultural use if matters don't improve

bigtimecharlie

ssbob wrote: »

A few other points I would like to make:

I would re-iterate Slave's point above about the poor financial management. This is not helped by the committee style running of clubs. I am a firm believer that every club should have a golf club manager whose job it is to ensure the club is run in the best way possible. If it's a small club, he doesn't have to work 5 days but maybe could be incentivised.
[/LIST]

Are clubs being run by non-qualified financial people?

Open to correction on this, but the GAA have insisted that club treasures "hold" an accounting qualification. This means that there should be no rotation of this important post, i.e. the assistant treasurer being the treasurer next year regardless.

ssbob

bigtimecharlie wrote: »

Are clubs being run by non-qualified financial people?

Open to correction on this, but the GAA have insisted that club treasures "hold" an accounting qualification. This means that there should be no rotation of this important post, i.e. the assistant treasurer being the treasurer next year regardless.

This is the ideal scenario but not the norm. Anyway the treasurer is really only one voice on a committee so even if a voice of reason, the captain, vice-captain and secretary etc can outvote the treasurer on any given day.

This is my point about having a dedicated golf club manager whose job it is that the best interests of the club are at heart and with a long term future ahead of him/her it is easier to plan the right projects and not just the immediate ones which look good now but not in 12 months when there is a new captain.

m r c

Santa Cruz mentioned about the drink driving legislation and I think it's definitely had an impact.
You would be amazed the amount of fellas who would be expected home in 5-5.5 hours who used to play 9 and have a few pints with the lads 3 or 4 instead of playing the back 9.
I'm not going to say the should have done it or not but they aren't really doing it in nearly the same numbers. I know for sure a a right few seniors for whom the good has gone out of the golf since and have left.

golfwallah

bigtimecharlie wrote: »

Are clubs being run by non-qualified financial people?

Open to correction on this, but the GAA have insisted that club treasures "hold" an accounting qualification. This means that there should be no rotation of this important post, i.e. the assistant treasurer being the treasurer next year regardless.

ssbob wrote: »

This is the ideal scenario but not the norm. Anyway the treasurer is really only one voice on a committee so even if a voice of reason, the captain, vice-captain and secretary etc can outvote the treasurer on any given day.

This is my point about having a dedicated golf club manager whose job it is that the best interests of the club are at heart and with a long term future ahead of him/her it is easier to plan the right projects and not just the immediate ones which look good now but not in 12 months when there is a new captain.

Sure, having a qualified, effective treasurer is important, but it is only part of the solution. The treasurer is also a volunteer in most clubs and has to focus on financial issues - mainly on the areas of cash flow, cost control, paying bills, wages, VAT compliance, etc. Most wouldn't have the time to undertake a marketing role as well.

We all know that financial control, although vitally important, is not the only pressing issue for clubs at the moment ..... there's also the equally big issue of maintaining or increasing income ...... and this requires at least a modicum of marketing skills.

In my experience, many lay-volunteers don't rate marketing as being very important and equate it with looking after the website and/or putting up a few posters. When in reality what is required is identifying what existing and potential new members want at prices they are prepared to pay, developing a marketing plan and then implementing it.

Like it or not, most member clubs are heavily reliant on revenue from members. Visitors make up only a small part of their overall sales. Resorts on the other hand, do rely more heavily on visitors who can often avail of premium product offerings at NAMA subsidised rates.

I think the CGI have it right in recommending the above mentioned points based affordable membership at about €200 for 200 points plus better value family focussed offerings. These would make golf more affordable to a large untapped segment of the market (e.g. young family people who have limited time and financial availability to play - the "lost generation" of club members) and allow clubs, by maximising value for what they are good at, to compete more effectively with the resorts.

GreeBo

ssbob wrote: »

This is the ideal scenario but not the norm. Anyway the treasurer is really only one voice on a committee so even if a voice of reason, the captain, vice-captain and secretary etc can outvote the treasurer on any given day.

This is my point about having a dedicated golf club manager whose job it is that the best interests of the club are at heart and with a long term future ahead of him/her it is easier to plan the right projects and not just the immediate ones which look good now but not in 12 months when there is a new captain.

Very difficult position to be a golf club manager when committee, presidents, captains etc all have so much power and can make crazy decisions and then are gone next year.

ssbob

golfwallah wrote: »

Sure, having a qualified, effective treasurer is important, but it is only part of the solution. The treasurer is also a volunteer in most clubs and has to focus on financial issues - mainly on the areas of cash flow, cost control, paying bills, wages, VAT compliance, etc. Most wouldn't have the time to undertake a marketing role as well.

I am totally in agreement with this, and that's why I suggest having a specific golf club manager rather than committee members.

The manager is responsible for the marketing and direction of the golf club while also managing the finances day to day. You can still have a treasurer behind him who is also a professional.

I don't believe golf pro's make the best managers for clubs, I know it is in their interests that the club does well but at the same time I think they are always thinking about the lesson they can give which in a lot of clubs does not go back into club coffers.

decko11

slow play

the pro v 1 ball

the bigger drivers (J Daly longest hitter in 1992 - avg length 275 yards) today plus 55 yards ?

courses longer

more maintenance costs as land used increases disproportionately

and what to the powers that be do ? -- ban the long putter so as to drive more of us away

ssbob

GreeBo wrote: »

Very difficult position to be a golf club manager when committee, presidents, captains etc all have so much power and can make crazy decisions and then are gone next year.

It is a difficult position I admit but if a forward thinking committee takes a decision and the manager gets the autonomy then I think it is for the better of the club in the long run.

GreeBo

ssbob wrote: »

It is a difficult position I admit but if a forward thinking committee takes a decision and the manager gets the autonomy then I think it is for the better of the club in the long run.

Problem is that its the members club, they elect the committee, not the manager.
How do you get rid of a manager you dont "like"? He is an employee, you cant just fire him.

We have committees for marketing, finance, social, course, competitions, etc, etc

Hence we removed the position of permanent secretary manager.

golfwallah

GreeBo wrote: »

Very difficult position to be a golf club manager when committee, presidents, captains etc all have so much power and can make crazy decisions and then are gone next year.

ssbob wrote: »

I am totally in agreement with this, and that's why I suggest having a specific golf club manager rather than committee members.

The manager is responsible for the marketing and direction of the golf club while also managing the finances day to day. You can still have a treasurer behind him who is also a professional.

I don't believe golf pro's make the best managers for clubs, I know it is in their interests that the club does well but at the same time I think they are always thinking about the lesson they can give which in a lot of clubs does not go back into club coffers.

ssbob wrote: »

It is a difficult position I admit but if a forward thinking committee takes a decision and the manager gets the autonomy then I think it is for the better of the club in the long run.

All good, sensible points, but hiring a club manager is a big and expensive decision for many clubs. Also many clubs have let their club managers go to save on cost, without any thought of what vital business functions that person would be carrying out that are now going to be done by ...... well nobody!

And that's assuming the club manager was or is competent in the marketing area and has the necessary authority from the members to undertake new marketing initiatives.

The important factors, IMO, are ensuring there is an active and competent marketing function in the club, whether volunteer or professional and also bringing the members along with doing what it takes to attract new members and retain existing ones.

This is no mean communications task!

ssbob

I guess what I am trying to get at here is that Membership in golf clubs is under pressure. My own personal solution is a golf club manager within the club. Yes it will cost money, yes you won't know for 12 months whether or not this man/woman is worth the investment but for some clubs to survive then they are going to need to be radical.

@golfwallah I agree a lot of clubs have such a poor presence online and are losing out. Clubs like The Heritage then are really online present which for them is a must as they need green fee's because they are so remote for membership.

golfwallah

ssbob wrote: »

I guess what I am trying to get at here is that Membership in golf clubs is under pressure. My own personal solution is a golf club manager within the club. Yes it will cost money, yes you won't know for 12 months whether or not this man/woman is worth the investment but for some clubs to survive then they are going to need to be radical.

@golfwallah I agree a lot of clubs have such a poor presence online and are losing out. Clubs like The Heritage then are really online present which for them is a must as they need green fee's because they are so remote for membership.

Hiring a manager may be the solution for some clubs. But it won't guarantee success.

To have a reasonable chance of success in recruiting / retaining members requires customer focus. Whoever looks after the marketing end, needs to ascertain what potential and existing customers want, develop packages to meet that need and then let the market know about their offerings.

Some clubs simply will not take on a manager - it would be nigh on impossible to get agreement on doing this at an AGM.

People want the problem solved, but haven't been presented with the facts / issues and options for solutions in a very clear way that they can understand and make informed decisions on the way forward.

If this was done by committees (i.e. giving members the opportunity to make informed choices), there would be far fewer problems with getting and retaining members.

IF only!

golfwallah

Here's a link to a survey conducted by the English Golfing Union, showing that a more flexible approach to membership pricing does indeed work in the real world:Link.

If the CGI implement their campaign for points membership anyway effectively, it's almost inevitable, IMO, that we will begin to see a lot more clubs adopting the points membership approach from next year.

But like all things in life, there will be leaders / early adaptors and followers but I reckon most clubs are waiting to see what their nearest competitors are doing.

Interesting times ahead!

ShivasIrons

ssbob wrote: »

I guess what I am trying to get at here is that Membership in golf clubs is under pressure. My own personal solution is a golf club manager within the club. Yes it will cost money, yes you won't know for 12 months whether or not this man/woman is worth the investment but for some clubs to survive then they are going to need to be radical.

Managers are part of the problem in many clubs, protecting their overpriced salaries over the interests of the clubs. Engineering who is on committees and keeping any discussion about their poor role quiet.

Cutting any funding to the course is madness and that is always the first place cut. Close the clubhouse before you cut the course.

mike12

I think when you compare the cost of green fees v's membership i can see why there are so many people opting out. If you just want to play golf them for most memberships you are paying 40 to 50 green fees a year.
Think the model of €500 quid for the year plus pay for your golf could be the way forward for a lot of clubs to increase members. If you are a 10 to 20 rounds a year person then it is very hard to dish out €1500 for ther year. but if you could get your 10 rounds for €500 plus the next 10 for €150 you would be more likley to stay.

The problem could be when you get to a tipping point where most of the members go for the cheap option.

moycullen14

mike12 wrote: »

I think when you compare the cost of green fees v's membership i can see why there are so many people opting out. If you just want to play golf them for most memberships you are paying 40 to 50 green fees a year.
Think the model of €500 quid for the year plus pay for your golf could be the way forward for a lot of clubs to increase members. If you are a 10 to 20 rounds a year person then it is very hard to dish out €1500 for ther year. but if you could get your 10 rounds for €500 plus the next 10 for €150 you would be more likley to stay.

The problem could be when you get to a tipping point where most of the members go for the cheap option.

I wonder about pay per play - in whatever form. In our place, I think it would be extremely difficult to police. Summer evenings after about 8pm, you'd have the place to yourself. What do you charge for a few holes in the evening - the real benefit of membership for lots of people?

ssbob

ShivasIrons wrote: »

Managers are part of the problem in many clubs, protecting their overpriced salaries over the interests of the clubs. Engineering who is on committees and keeping any discussion about their poor role quiet.

Not denying that there are bad managers out there but as I mentioned above, you could incentivise them for the membership side.

It really depends on the type of club etc.

charlieIRL

moycullen14 wrote: »

I wonder about pay per play - in whatever form. In our place, I think it would be extremely difficult to police. Summer evenings after about 8pm, you'd have the place to yourself. What do you charge for a few holes in the evening - the real benefit of membership for lots of people?

pay per play doesn't work, I mentioned this previously that a club had implemented a membership where you paid x per year and x per round and members abused it by going out without paying. Was scrapped after a year or two as there was no ranger on duty to patrol it.

ssbob

ssbob wrote: »

Not denying that there are bad managers out there but as I mentioned above, you could incentivise them for the membership side.

It really depends on the type of club etc.

charlieIRL wrote: »

pay per play doesn't work, I mentioned this previously that a club had implemented a membership where you paid x per year and x per round and members abused it by going out without paying. Was scrapped after a year or two as there was no ranger on duty to patrol it.

I got offered a form of this this year without GUI as I wasn't renewing my membership but turned it down due to the 8 o clocks mentioned above, I would feel guilty about sneaking out on the course....

golfwallah

moycullen14 wrote: »

I wonder about pay per play - in whatever form. In our place, I think it would be extremely difficult to police. Summer evenings after about 8pm, you'd have the place to yourself. What do you charge for a few holes in the evening - the real benefit of membership for lots of people?

charlieIRL wrote: »

pay per play doesn't work, I mentioned this previously that a club had implemented a membership where you paid x per year and x per round and members abused it by going out without paying. Was scrapped after a year or two as there was no ranger on duty to patrol it.

I don't think anyone is suggesting pay and play as the only type of membership offering.

But I do think there is a place in a range of membership offerings for a points option for those who would otherwise not play or continue with casual golfing.

Of course there are always going to be some people abusing the system. They are there already, with or without a points offering. And, faced with the alternative of continuously declining revenues year on year ending up with closure, it's up to clubs to find solutions to both declining membership and how to mitigate the risks of even more abuse by people using their course for free.

Nobody said there would be no issues or problems, or that there was a perfect, easy to implement solution.

slave1

It is not just Ireland experiencing the downturn, Dicks Sporting Goods ( a big US sporting chain with a large golf section in store ) has just let go EVERY Pro from all it's shops, that's 524 per a quick news message on The Golf Channel, that's a big hit...

Kevinmarkham

slave1 wrote: »

It is not just Ireland experiencing the downturn, Dicks Sporting Goods ( a big US sporting chain with a large golf section in store ) has just let go EVERY Pro from all it's shops, that's 524 per a quick news message on The Golf Channel, that's a big hit...

Yea, just saw that (http://www.bizjournals.com/pittsburgh/news/2014/07/22/dicks-sporting-goods-lays-off-all-its-in-store-pga.html) - brutal.

rrpc

slave1 wrote: »

It is not just Ireland experiencing the downturn, Dicks Sporting Goods ( a big US sporting chain with a large golf section in store ) has just let go EVERY Pro from all it's shops, that's 524 per a quick news message on The Golf Channel, that's a big hit...

In isolation it could look bad for golf in the US, but it's just as likely that competitors are hurting them to the extent that their golf sales are down. The article linked above mentioned that they were going to reduce the amount of golf equipment they carried, so I'd suspect that they are being hit by the big golf only chains and internet sales.

Russman

rrpc wrote: »

In isolation it could look bad for golf in the US, but it's just as likely that competitors are hurting them to the extent that their golf sales are down. The article linked above mentioned that they were going to reduce the amount of golf equipment they carried, so I'd suspect that they are being hit by the big golf only chains and internet sales.

Possibly, but didn't Edwin Watts get into trouble in the last year or so ? I've a vague recollection of reading something about bankruptcy or Chapter 11 or something.

I'd say internet sales is a big factor though.

golfwallah

slave1 wrote: »

It is not just Ireland experiencing the downturn, Dicks Sporting Goods ( a big US sporting chain with a large golf section in store ) has just let go EVERY Pro from all it's shops, that's 524 per a quick news message on The Golf Channel, that's a big hit...

rrpc wrote: »

In isolation it could look bad for golf in the US, but it's just as likely that competitors are hurting them to the extent that their golf sales are down. The article linked above mentioned that they were going to reduce the amount of golf equipment they carried, so I'd suspect that they are being hit by the big golf only chains and internet sales.

Russman wrote: »

Possibly, but didn't Edwin Watts get into trouble in the last year or so ? I've a vague recollection of reading something about bankruptcy or Chapter 11 or something.

I'd say internet sales is a big factor though.

There no doubting all the economic indicators that people are spending less money, particularly on discretionary stuff like golf. That leaves suppliers of goods and service in all businesses competing for a seemingly ever shrinking pool of available customer cash.

Not an easy problem for professional businesses to deal with, let alone voluntary-run set ups like member owned golf clubs. Membership numbers are falling to critical levels in all but the most affluent clubs, located near to large centres of population. And even the “well off” clubs are facing drops in revenue and having to face up to revenue generation issues that were never any trouble before.

I mean what do you do to compete these days? Cut costs – result decline in service standards (from course to clubhouse to pro-shop), less value for money? Cut membership & green fee rates – reduced revenue and non-availability of cash to maintain / improve standards? And all the while, hope you can survive longer than your competition. All sounds like spreading the butter more thinly, declining standards and fewer people spending money!

Or maybe start to focus on customers – what they want, what they can afford, how to supply that need, how to let your existing and potential members know about the quality of your product and value for money (compared to the competition). CGI are recommending possible solutions for clubs to think about, in the form “points”, family membership, etc., but clubs don’t seem to be taking on these ideas in any great numbers so far.

Russman

golfwallah wrote: »

There no doubting all the economic indicators that people are spending less money, particularly on discretionary stuff like golf. That leaves suppliers of goods and service in all businesses competing for a seemingly ever shrinking pool of available customer cash.

Not an easy problem for professional businesses to deal with, let alone voluntary-run set ups like member owned golf clubs. Membership numbers are falling to critical levels in all but the most affluent clubs, located near to large centres of population. And even the “well off” clubs are facing drops in revenue and having to face up to revenue generation issues that were never any trouble before.

I mean what do you do to compete these days? Cut costs – result decline in service standards (from course to clubhouse to pro-shop), less value for money? Cut membership & green fee rates – reduced revenue and non-availability of cash to maintain / improve standards? And all the while, hope you can survive longer than your competition. All sounds like spreading the butter more thinly, declining standards and fewer people spending money!

Or maybe start to focus on customers – what they want, what they can afford, how to supply that need, how to let your existing and potential members know about the quality of your product and value for money (compared to the competition). CGI are recommending possible solutions for clubs to think about, in the form “points”, family membership, etc., but clubs don’t seem to be taking on these ideas in any great numbers so far.[/QUOTE]

I can see your point, but I don't think its as simple as that (or maybe as complicated). I don't believe that clubs are drifting along blissfully ignoring things and not looking at options to give themselves a better chance of weathering the storm. Most clubs I know of offer family memberships, 5 day options, under 35, student etc. Short of offering free golf, I don't know what some clubs are supposed to do. Where does the race to the bottom stop ?

With all due respect, and don't get me wrong, I'm not having a go at all, all the good ideas in the world are no use if there's only x number of golfers and the number of available clubs for them to join is such that y number of clubs simply cannot survive. Its like the loaves and the fishes.

Ultimately when the price points merge, it will probably come down to location, and to a lesser extent, facilities, practice ground etc. Club loyalty is, unfortunately IMO, a distant memory, guys are chasing deals and going from club to club each year, with the result that no club can budget and has to effectively "wait and see" until the following March/April/May to figure out how many members they've lost. On an individual basis its hard to blame someone for taking the cheaper option if it keeps them in the game, but in the bigger picture its a bad thing IMHO.

Of course, many clubs will have to make choices and perhaps some choices involve previously unpalatable decisions (from the existing members' points of view), but I do think the general downturn in golfer numbers is purely economic, less disposable income, and if you have a job, probably working more hours than you used to. Lots of clubs have id10ts running them or on committee, but its very hard to get new blood onto committees and if a club can't afford a full time manager, its pretty bleak.

I think the rumour mill is surprisingly powerful in times like we have now also. People hear a club is in trouble, possibly even their own, and it can become a self fulfilling prophecy if communications aren't managed carefully.

Roger_007

I think the problem is that there are just too many clubs chasing a limited number of potential members.
This is the complete opposite of when I first joined a golf club in 1995. I had been on a waiting list for 2 years and only then got in because I personally knew the captain and he nominated me as one of his 'picks' for new members. I was supposed to be eternally grateful for this 'favour'.
When I moved to a different part of the country a few years later, I enquired if I could 'transfer' my membership to a new club without paying a new entry fee. They thought I was mentally deranged for even thinking that might be a possibility!
These kind of attitudes do not promote loyalty to a club.
When entry fees eventually disappeared a couple of years ago, I was finally able to join a new club. I changed clubs again last year for financial reasons.
Loyalty to a club is a thing of the past. Clubs must realise that they have to compete for new members and do more to retain their existing members. They should relate cost of membership to the actual use each member makes of the facilities. It is ridiculous that someone who only plays once a month pays the same as someone who plays three times a week.

moycullen14

Roger_007 wrote: »

I think the problem is that there are just too many clubs chasing a limited number of potential members.
This is the complete opposite of when I first joined a golf club in 1995. I had been on a waiting list for 2 years and only then got in because I personally knew the captain and he nominated me as one of his 'picks' for new members. I was supposed to be eternally grateful for this 'favour'.
When I moved to a different part of the country a few years later, I enquired if I could 'transfer' my membership to a new club without paying a new entry fee. They thought I was mentally deranged for even thinking that might be a possibility!
These kind of attitudes do not promote loyalty to a club.
When entry fees eventually disappeared a couple of years ago, I was finally able to join a new club. I changed clubs again last year for financial reasons.
Loyalty to a club is a thing of the past. Clubs must realise that they have to compete for new members and do more to retain their existing members. They should relate cost of membership to the actual use each member makes of the facilities. It is ridiculous that someone who only plays once a month pays the same as someone who plays three times a week.

Actually, I think this was exactly what made people loyal to a club - for financial reasons.

The levy or hello money was one thing that kept people in clubs. It stopped people from flipping between clubs and put a 'value' on ongoing membership.

Whilst it may be understandable for individuals to move between clubs on an almost yearly basis, it makes management of the clubs very difficult. Hard to budget when you don't know your membership numbers.

I think the reason that clubs appear slow to change to the new realities is that the whole business model of running a club has changed, not just the subs/hello money.

For the majority of clubs - excluding the big name ones - major change is required. This may involve merging, closing down, different funding regimes, etc. One thing for sure; just cutting and cutting won't work.

Locally, I'm not sure that there is the demand for two clubs between, say, Mitchelstown and Fermoy. Merging may be the answer but not without a lot of pain. I'm sure this situation is replicated across the country.

alxmorgan

moycullen14 wrote: »

Actually, I think this was exactly what made people loyal to a club - for financial reasons.

The levy or hello money was one thing that kept people in clubs. It stopped people from flipping between clubs and put a 'value' on ongoing membership.

Whilst it may be understandable for individuals to move between clubs on an almost yearly basis, it makes management of the clubs very difficult. Hard to budget when you don't know your membership numbers.

I think the reason that clubs appear slow to change to the new realities is that the whole business model of running a club has changed, not just the subs/hello money.

For the majority of clubs - excluding the big name ones - major change is required. This may involve merging, closing down, different funding regimes, etc. One thing for sure; just cutting and cutting won't work.

Locally, I'm not sure that there is the demand for two clubs between, say, Mitchelstown and Fermoy. Merging may be the answer but not without a lot of pain. I'm sure this situation is replicated across the country.

Fair points but I wouldn't use the word loyal in this context. Beholden perhaps.

GreeBo

Roger_007 wrote: »

I think the problem is that there are just too many clubs chasing a limited number of potential members.
This is the complete opposite of when I first joined a golf club in 1995. I had been on a waiting list for 2 years and only then got in because I personally knew the captain and he nominated me as one of his 'picks' for new members. I was supposed to be eternally grateful for this 'favour'.
When I moved to a different part of the country a few years later, I enquired if I could 'transfer' my membership to a new club without paying a new entry fee. They thought I was mentally deranged for even thinking that might be a possibility!
These kind of attitudes do not promote loyalty to a club.
When entry fees eventually disappeared a couple of years ago, I was finally able to join a new club. I changed clubs again last year for financial reasons.
Loyalty to a club is a thing of the past. Clubs must realise that they have to compete for new members and do more to retain their existing members. They should relate cost of membership to the actual use each member makes of the facilities. It is ridiculous that someone who only plays once a month pays the same as someone who plays three times a week.

How would a transfer work exactly?

You've paid X grand to one club and now want to join another for free?
Clubs are not like Gyms all owned by the same parent company, I cant see why you would think a transfer would work regarding anything other than your GUI fee?

Roger_007

GreeBo wrote: »

How would a transfer work exactly?

You've paid X grand to one club and now want to join another for free?
Clubs are not like Gyms all owned by the same parent company, I cant see why you would think a transfer would work regarding anything other than your GUI fee?

With the demise of the entry fees, transfers are not needed any more. Even so, clubs in different parts of the country could form partnerships which would grant playing privileges to each other's members. Greenore and Ardglass have such an arrangement and I believe it works very well.