Palestinaisn being slaughtered and a prick with a cowboy hat is on frint page

FullblownRose · 24-07-2014 11:11PM

fta93 wrote: »

Irrelevant. Israel are the only side murdering children. "Defending themselves" indeed. Them 4 kids on the beach must have weapons on them somewhere eh?

It's highly relevant since the question i responded to asked how many israelis have been killed. the point is they would probably all be dead without their overburdened defense system.

speedboatchase · 24-07-2014 11:14PM

fta93 wrote: »

When did I defend Hamas? Please show me..

Hamas are a terrorist group. Israel are supposed to be a democratic nation, hence being held to a higher standard.

A democratic state targeting and murdering civilians, high numbers who are children. It's Israel doing this, not Hamas, no matter how this is spun with who started this or who it benefits, which sound like playground arguments.

But they're not targeting civilians; they're targeting the entire weapon infrastructure in an area where people are being used to protect weapons. Hamas is targeting civilians. They're just very bad at it.

*Cue mentions of the beach attack.*

That was horrendous and whoever ordered that should be tried and imprisoned for life. But if you honestly think that Israel, with its weaponry, was specifically targeting civilians as its end game, then the death figure would be 60,000+ right now.

FullblownRose · 24-07-2014 11:15PM

speedboatchase wrote: »

But they're not targeting civilians; they're targeting the entire weapon infrastructure in an area where people are being used to protect weapons. Hamas is targeting civilians. They're just very bad at it.

*Cue mentions of the beach attack.*

That was horrendous and whoever ordered that should be tried and imprisoned for life. But if you honestly think that Israel, with its weaponry, was specifically targeting civilians as its end game, then the death figure would be 60,000+ right now.

exactly.

Fiery mutant · 24-07-2014 11:16PM

fta93 wrote: »

200m is a very liberal description of close. Whereas bombing a UN school is very close. Especially for the independent UN teachers who were murdered.

If It were my children, and I discovered terrorists had burrowed to within 200m of my children's school, I would think it very ****in close.

Anyway, Hamas need to step back.
Israel need to step back.
There is no winner here and it's just an endless cycle of killing that needs to stop.

I don't believe Israel is targeting school or hospitals purposefully. I believe in the fog of war, errors occur. And be it that they are targeting Hamas firing from these areas, or they have made errors in judgement or trajectory calculations, it needs to stop.

Hamas won't stop. They have no regard for life in any way shape or form. So Israel must.

I'm leaving it at that for tonight, and I'll go to bed safe in the knowledge that I won't come under rocket fire in my sleep.(although I'm fairly close to the Ukraine border tonight, so maybe sleep with one eye open)

john.han · 24-07-2014 11:16PM

Fiery mutant wrote: »

I'd rather neither was a target. But of course my opinion is that Hamas fires from these position because they know the Israelis will then target that area. I also wonder why the school was still populated when they were told by the Israelis last night to have the school cleared before 10am this morning, as that area would be targeted by Israeli forces between 10am and 2pm today.

The school was still populated because the people running it had been trying to get clearance from the IDF to clear the school but were never given it, now Israel is retrospectively claiming they were given a 4 hour window but this is clearly a lie. They actively targeted a school they knew was still populated and knew exactly what they were doing, the school had on twelve separate occasions prior to the attack given the IDF the exact coordinates of the school in their attempts get clearance to evacuate.

Thrill · 24-07-2014 11:19PM

Over 10k taking part in the protest.

Reports that Palestinians just set fire to the Israeli police station in AlAqsa mosque Jerusalem.

Protesters storming all Jewish settlement enclaves in Pal-majority Jerusalem neighbourhoods simultaneously. unconfirmed.

,

speedboatchase · 24-07-2014 11:21PM

I'm ducking out for the night, let's all hope this mess can come to an end soon so we don't all have to keep explaining our arguments to different posters each evening!

FullblownRose · 24-07-2014 11:22PM

Originally Posted by Fiery mutant View Post
I'd rather neither was a target. But of course my opinion is that Hamas fires from these position because they know the Israelis will then target that area. I also wonder why the school was still populated when they were told by the Israelis last night to have the school cleared before 10am this morning, as that area would be targeted by Israeli forces between 10am and 2pm today.

It's been known for a while that the time would come when israel would need to consider taking the weapons out on the ground. it was pure evil to situate them where they did and it is clear that israel did what could be done to minimise the damage unlie hamas who are as always going to great length to maximise it. if one rocket was launched at the UK never mind the intensity of the attacks aimed at israel all hell would be unleashed and there'd be a sight more collateral damage into the bargain.

Fiery mutant · 24-07-2014 11:22PM

john.han wrote: »

The school was still populated because the people running it had been trying to get clearance from the IDF to clear the school but were never given it, now Israel is retrospectively claiming they were given a 4 hour window but this is clearly a lie. They actively targeted a school they knew was still populated and knew exactly what they were doing, the school had on twelve separate occasions prior to the attack given the IDF the exact coordinates of the school in their attempts get clearance to evacuate.

Last one. Sorry, why Is it 'clearly a lie'? Because the School say so?

Buzz Killington the third · 24-07-2014 11:22PM

speedboatchase wrote: »

We can't say for sure but my best suggestion would be, as evidenced in the link I just sent to Johro, is that UNRWA and the press corps are complying with the Hamas guidelines out of fear. Ban Ki-Moon has ordered a review after allegations that UNRWA gave back the rockets to Hamas, so clearly they don't appear to be been acting independently on that matter.

That's propaganda bullshít at it's best. By the time rockets are found and reported the location is already given away so why is there no proper journalistic broadcast about it? It's just usually Israel saying "found rockets so we demolished the building"

wes · 24-07-2014 11:26PM

speedboatchase wrote: »

The problem is that independent press corps appear to be complying with this: http://newsbusters.org/blogs/tom-blumer/2014/07/21/nyt-apparently-other-press-orgs-complying-hamas-coverage-restrictions

Obviously they are complying because you can't find those shots anywhere.

Yes, interesting site that, its tag line being:

Exposing & Combating Liberal Media Bias

About NewsBusters.org

Welcome to NewsBusters, a project of the Media Research Center (MRC), America’s leading media watchdog in documenting, exposing and neutralizing liberal media bias.

In August of 2005, the MRC launched the NewsBusters blog to provide immediate exposure of national media bias, unfairness, inaccuracy, and occasional idiocy. National talk-radio stars often read from articles on the blog, touting the latest nugget from "Our buddies at NewsBusters." Even The Washington Post has noticed the “feisty blog” run by “the best-known and best-funded conservative watchdog.”

With a sophisticated 24-hour recording operation and a huge archive of broadcast and cable news recordings dating back to 1987, NewsBusters plays a leading role in both short-term outrages and long-term trends in liberal media tilt.

If you have general questions please go to our frequently asked questions page.

Read more: http://newsbusters.org/about#ixzz38QngPFi3

Above emphasis mine.

So a right wing blog, with an agenda against liberals..... Not like we haven't seen those before.

The site is run by this bunch the Media Research center:
Media Research Center

So typical right wing guff about the liberal media etc, and not a fair or balanced source of news in any way shape of form.

Johro · 24-07-2014 11:32PM

WakeUp wrote: »

Came across something earlier on reading a news article referenced it so looked it up , have just spent the last few hours reading it a really interesting read - it's called "The Israel projects 2009 global language dictionary " not sure if youre aware of it or anyone else thought I would post this anyway. It's all about how to phrase and word arguments in Israeli favour a sort of diplomatic dictionary, one of the chapters on the Palestinians is really an eye opener. A standard theme throughout the document is how people when discussing the issues with the Palestinians must always show empathy to "both" sides it keeps coming up as if such a thing even needs saying. make sure you display empathy must display empathy it's odd. it's goes into great detail on all of the main issues facing Israel how to/not to approach them the settlement issues being the "toughest" issue that's faced and to justify. another recurring theme - blame Hamas for everything - no surprises there. now when I listen to Bibi, Regev et all speak think things will make more sense. It's an interesting read. chapter one is titled "25 ways for effective communication"

http://www.docstoc.com/docs/8303274/The-Israel-Projects-2009-Global-Language-Dictionary

Yup. And then if you also watched 'Defamation', by Yoav Shamir, you would have an understanding of how they keep their own people fooled.

wes · 24-07-2014 11:35PM

speedboatchase wrote: »

But they're not targeting civilians;

And yet, they seem to mostly be killing civilians.

speedboatchase wrote: »

they're targeting the entire weapon infrastructure in an area where people are being used to protect weapons.

0 evidence to back up this claim has yet to be provided. Just stated again and again as if it is a fact.

However, the claims have been found to be false:

Israel-Gaza conflict: The myth of Hamas’s human shields

speedboatchase wrote: »

Hamas is targeting civilians. They're just very bad at it.

Hamas are incapable of targeting civilians, they don't have the tech to do so. They are however being indiscriminate in there rocket fire, which is of course a war crime.

speedboatchase wrote: »

*Cue mentions of the beach attack.*

It hardly the only example, we are getting more and more everyday. It is just the one that sticks in people minds more than the others, as a perfect illustration of just how murderous the IDF are.

speedboatchase wrote: »

That was horrendous and whoever ordered that should be tried and imprisoned for life.

That won't happen. They may get a slap on the wrist, and be let out, when the world attention is elsewhere, like the IDF has done in the past, and that assuming if there is even anyone tried for this, going by past behavior with stuff like.

speedboatchase wrote: »

But if you honestly think that Israel, with its weaponry, was specifically targeting civilians as its end game, then the death figure would be 60,000+ right now.

So 700 dead Palestinians (most of them civilians) isn't enough proof, that Israel is just as indiscriminate as Hamas, when it comes to there attacks, the only difference is that the IDF know full well, when there targeting civilians, and still go ahead. It speaks to how Palestinians have been clearly dehumanized by the IDF, when they can look down there sites, and murder 4 children playing football, or murder people at a cafe watching the world cup, or a family sitting on there roof, or a hospital, or a school filled with fleeing civilians, or people in there homes and so on.

FullblownRose · 24-07-2014 11:39PM

^etiquette. how not to inflame a situation by saying the wrong thing because your words will be taen as representative of the beliefs of an entire nation..or guidelines to avoid saying something that will be distorted deliberately or just misconstured. that is not weird.

Johro · 24-07-2014 11:45PM

FullblownRose wrote: »

^etiquette. how not to inflame a situation by saying the wrong thing because your words will be taen as representative of the beliefs of an entire nation..or guidelines to avoid saying something that will be distorted deliberately or just misconstured. that is not weird.

Huh? And this relates to..?

CrazyRabbit · 24-07-2014 11:47PM

Fiery mutant wrote: »

Actually yes they would, as they were in 2009 when a cemetery was bombed for the same reason. The point being, Those rockets are being fired from civilian areas, Hamas know damn well what the consequences will be, and still fire. Hell, 2 UNRWA schools were found with rockets hidden inside them the past few days.

Or perhaps you think Hamas are firing Coke fuelled by Mentos?

Coke/Mentos fueled rockets would probably be just as effective...at least in terms of casualties.

Also...considering the population density in the area, I wonder how many non-civilian areas there actually are? Well, I suppose the fighters could just stand out in open fields and martyr themselves.

P_1 · 24-07-2014 11:55PM

Johro wrote: »

This kind of argument is getting old. Yes, Hamas are firing rockets at indiscriminate targets, and they should be held to account as much as the IDF.
It has to be said though that Israel seem to think that for every Israeli soldier/civilian killed, a hundred or more Palestinians must die.
There's a question of scale. They also have hugely superior firepower and military intelligence, yet choose to hit those targets.
Also, we would not be here if Israel stopped its expansion into Gaza and entered meaningful peace talks, as those peace talks keep collapsing because Israel refuse to stop expanding their territory into an already pressured Gaza strip. If they tried it anywhere else it would mean war, and the international community have been too soft on it for too long.

Yeah it's something you'd expect from the likes of Klaus Barbie but certainly not of a so-called liberal democracy.

FullblownRose · 25-07-2014 12:00AM

Johro wrote: »

Huh? And this relates to..?

a previous comment but i am quite tired and possibly making no sense so excuse me..signing out now

Johro · 25-07-2014 12:01AM

FullblownRose wrote: »

a previous comment but i am quite tired and possibly making no sense so excuse me..signing out now

Oh okay, sorry.

Son Of A Vidic · 25-07-2014 12:02AM

speedboatchase wrote: »

But they're not targeting civilians

Of course not, so their assortment of high tech guided weaponry is obviously going rogue on them. Hence the reason 800 Palestinians have been killed and 5200 wounded by Israeli fire.

sid waddell · 25-07-2014 12:19AM

Was Russia merely only defending itself when pro-Russian rebels shot down the Malaysian Airlines plane last week?

That's a serious question for Israel supporters, by the way, and while it might seem facetious, the nature of pro-Israeli reaction to what is going on in Gaza means that what you would, under normal circumstances, assume to be ridiculous questions, must in fact be asked in a serious manner.

h2005 · 25-07-2014 12:26AM

https://twitter.com/Astro_Alex/status/492003157531451392
A pic of Gaza & Israel from space.

25-07-2014 01:11AM

Serves them right, why would they think a school was a safe place? Are they not Catholic?

25-07-2014 01:14AM

Remember everyone, if you're against the slaughter of innocent people and the destruction of an entire society that makes you an anti-semite!

sid waddell · 25-07-2014 01:32AM

To say the setting up of the state of Israel was a disastrous historical mistake and should never have happened also makes you an outright anti-semite in the eyes of Israel supporters, but then what doesn't?

In reality, the concept of Israel as a state was about as logical as saying that a Muslim state should be set up in Andalusia because Muslims have a historical tie to that land.

Both concepts for states were and are utterly appalling.

obplayer · 25-07-2014 01:37AM

sid waddell wrote: »

To say the setting up of the state of Israel was a disastrous historical mistake and should never have happened also makes you an outright anti-semite in the eyes of Israel supporters, but then what doesn't?

In reality, the concept of Israel as a state was about as logical as saying that a Muslim state should be set up in Andalusia because Muslims have a historical tie to that land.

Both concepts for states were and are utterly appalling.

What has that got to do with the situation now? Israel is here and it is not going away. This is the reality that everyone, including the Palestinians, has to deal with.

25-07-2014 01:41AM

sid waddell wrote: »

To say the setting up of the state of Israel was a disastrous historical mistake and should never have happened also makes you an outright anti-semite in the eyes of Israel supporters, but then what doesn't?

In reality, the concept of Israel as a state was about as logical as saying that a Muslim state should be set up in Andalusia because Muslims have a historical tie to that land.

Both concepts for states were and are utterly appalling.

It's almost as if a Western-supported rogue state in the middle of a bunch of oil-exporting countries may suit somebodies ends...

25-07-2014 01:42AM

obplayer wrote: »

What has that got to do with the situation now? Israel is here and it is not going away. This is the reality that everyone, including the Palestinians, has to deal with.

It would be a lot easier for them to deal with if they could go to work and school every day and not worry about when they would next get some water.

sid waddell · 25-07-2014 01:50AM

obplayer wrote: »

What has that got to do with the situation now? Israel is here and it is not going away. This is the reality that everyone, including the Palestinians, has to deal with.

You cannot divide such an issue from its historical context. Israel tries to do this at every oppurtunity.

Supporters of Israel have a really selective blind spot when it comes to historical context. Historical context is only allowed on one side. The historical context of the grotesque injustice that was done to the Jewsih people in World War II can and is used to justify anything. Historical context however is not allowed to be invoked by the Palestinians. That's a taboo which must not be broken.

cert2009 · 25-07-2014 01:51AM

obplayer wrote: »

What has that got to do with the situation now? Israel is here and it is not going away. This is the reality that everyone, including the Palestinians, has to deal with.

In jewish holy book, real jews know, that god has not allowed them a homeland on earth, they are not allowed to have their own country

So you`ll see real jews protesting against zionists in occupied palestine

Israel is not a state for jews, as it cant be, as it is forbidden in their holy book, they are in reality the terrorists, oppressors and invaders of a native people

Palestinaisn being slaughtered and a prick with a cowboy hat is on frint page

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