Compulsion to convert

jill_valentine · 22-07-2014 4:05am

So this guy could follow me around telling me how terrible and grotesque and hellbound I was all day long and I'd be obliged to let him. Brilliant.

Overheal · 22-07-2014 6:52am

Did anyone read the article without bias?

It does mention the incidences that happened were 'in a coffee shop' 'someone on a motorbike' etc. and he was even told not to do this during his lunch hours?

So, 'business hours' was interpreted by the employer as 9-5 I guess, even if he wasn't working in an official capacity?

I mean I worked at Best Buy for a while, and we did have workers who would leave leaflets in the break room, which didn't really cause much stir, and it was not assaulting anybody on the breakroom table or pinned on our message board. I do only know of one employee who was good at their job but were dismissed because of multiple complaints, talking to employees on the floor to pray for troops overseas, in addition to responding to work related questions "eg. great sale, how did you manage that?" with responses like "because Jesus loves me".

Stuff like this though:

In June 2009, Mr McAteer was suspended without pay for two months and was ordered to see a professional to help him with his compulsive behaviour after he was spotted talking to a man outside a coffee shop about religion.

Seems like perfectly fair grounds to fight for unfair dismissal.

Just saying.

suicide_circus · 22-07-2014 7:16am

Manach wrote: »

First the irony of ironies JC giving out about religion when his was deified.

Second, the irony of ironies about the PC Brigade(TM pending) complaining about the equality authority. Whose aim is to protect and expand on the sacred tenants of diversity and inclusion based on the 9 areas which the core statutory act defines as discrimination. This includes religion. However given the shifting and morphing nature of what constitutes rights (beyond it being something that the Government must ensure you have to have regardless of how impacts anyone else) the PC-ists are being confronted with the spectre of what had been been a fairly harmonious workplace environment in this country now in thrall to the PC-ists of every type and fear of giving offence and failing to follow the whatever is the current trending right is grounds for calling in their enforcers in the equality authority.
So, the OP is a prophet in one sense where thanks to the progressives the business profits will be a thing of the past, dealing with all such claims.

PopePalpatine · 22-07-2014 8:23am

catallus wrote: »

The indignant blasphemy of the nescient unfaithful could be considered a religion in itself, given the superficial succour it provides them; but it must be obvious even to those benighted slaves-to-echoes that it is the religion of despair.

Back into your box under your bridge, Brian McKevitt.

BeerWolf · 22-07-2014 9:07am

Hate preachers, **** the lot of em.

tritium · 22-07-2014 9:17am

catallus wrote: »

You heard me! :mad:

Just heard a lot of blahblahblah I'm afraid.....:)

Pherekydes · 22-07-2014 9:23am

catallus wrote: »

The indignant blasphemy of the nescient unfaithful could be considered a religion in itself, given the superficial succour it provides them; but it must be obvious even to those benighted slaves-to-echoes that it is the religion of despair.

Are you in competition with manach?

tritium · 22-07-2014 9:23am

catallus wrote: »

There is always a choice; either accept humility in the face of the mystery of existence, or let vanity prevail.

Which can one choose, and remain human?

I'll choose vanity so thanks, over your fairytale. I'll also choose reason and logic over your absurd hocus pocus and trust in the power of knowledge and inquisitiveness over dogma.

My humanity remains just fine BTW, thanks for asking.

tritium · 22-07-2014 9:28am

Spoonman75 wrote: »

There's not enough info in the IT article to give me an honest opinion but the court ruled that he wasn't making people uncomfortable or harassing them.

It was an equality tribunal rather than a court, so somewhat less formal I guess. Hopefully a court will kick this right to the kerb.

pablomakaveli · 22-07-2014 10:05am

Overheal wrote: »

Did anyone read the article without bias?

It does mention the incidences that happened were 'in a coffee shop' 'someone on a motorbike' etc. and he was even told not to do this during his lunch hours?

So, 'business hours' was interpreted by the employer as 9-5 I guess, even if he wasn't working in an official capacity?

I mean I worked at Best Buy for a while, and we did have workers who would leave leaflets in the break room, which didn't really cause much stir, and it was not assaulting anybody on the breakroom table or pinned on our message board. I do only know of one employee who was good at their job but were dismissed because of multiple complaints, talking to employees on the floor to pray for troops overseas, in addition to responding to work related questions "eg. great sale, how did you manage that?" with responses like "because Jesus loves me".

Stuff like this though:

Seems like perfectly fair grounds to fight for unfair dismissal.

Just saying.

Maybe that incident with the coffee was during working hours. I get the impression from the article his employers main issue was him doing it during the working day.

In any case it seems like a form of harassment to keep talking to co-workers about religion when they have already complained about it. He can argue about his religious rights but his co-workers have a right to work without someone harassing them about religion.

I think the company were right to sack him especially when there was a long history of this behaviour.

Links234 · 22-07-2014 10:33am

Manach wrote: »

First the irony of ironies JC giving out about religion when his was deified.

Second, the irony of ironies about the PC Brigade(TM pending) complaining about the equality authority. Whose aim is to protect and expand on the sacred tenants of diversity and inclusion based on the 9 areas which the core statutory act defines as discrimination. This includes religion. However given the shifting and morphing nature of what constitutes rights (beyond it being something that the Government must ensure you have to have regardless of how impacts anyone else) the PC-ists are being confronted with the spectre of what had been been a fairly harmonious workplace environment in this country now in thrall to the PC-ists of every type and fear of giving offence and failing to follow the whatever is the current trending right is grounds for calling in their enforcers in the equality authority.
So, the OP is a prophet in one sense where thanks to the progressives the business profits will be a thing of the past, dealing with all such claims.

I have to ask, (even though I'm not expecting a response, I'm guessing this is just another Manach fly-by post) if it were a gay person doing similarly, would you have any such objection?

Imagine you're an employer, I'm working for you, and during work hours I'm try to get co-workers, members of the public, etc to sign a petition for same sex marriage, or trying to get them to march in a pride parade, or worse! Tried to 'convert' people? *Gasp* Asking people have they tried sex with another man or woman, and all on your time?

In fact, lets not strictly compare situations with LGBT people, what if it was someone shoving their politics on co-workers and customers? Should someone be allowed to canvas for Sinn Fein on company time? What if it was someone from another faith proselytizing? Or what if I, an avid metal fan, started promoting concerts to the customers? Hi, have you heard the Bad News?

RDM_83 again · 22-07-2014 10:57am

Links234 wrote: »

Imagine you're an employer, I'm working for you, and during work hours I'm try to get co-workers, members of the public, etc to sign a petition for same sex marriage, or trying to get them to march in a pride parade, or worse! Tried to 'convert' people? *Gasp* Asking people have they tried sex with another man or woman, and all on your time?

In fact, lets not strictly compare situations with LGBT people, what if it was someone shoving their politics on co-workers and customers? Should someone be allowed to canvas for Sinn Fein on company time? What if it was someone from another faith proselytizing? Or what if I, an avid metal fan, started promoting concerts to the customers? Hi, have you heard the Bad News?

I'm not in favour of this judgement BUT unlike on AH (which protects basically everything else apart from religion specifically ) religion is covered by the legislation.
What this case does is show that the equality authority isn't necessarily always correct or sensible to those who would normally cheerlead it and consider it and similar bodies judgement on cases gospel (see gay cake for examples :-\ )

EDIT:by this I am not necessarily saying the NI authority made the wrong call rather the attitude that because they reached that verdict its automatically the 'right one'

suicide_circus · 22-07-2014 11:00am

I love that "gay cake" is now a term which needs no further explanation :pac:

eviltwin · 22-07-2014 11:08am

Links234 wrote: »

I have to ask, (even though I'm not expecting a response, I'm guessing this is just another Manach fly-by post) if it were a gay person doing similarly, would you have any such objection?

Imagine you're an employer, I'm working for you, and during work hours I'm try to get co-workers, members of the public, etc to sign a petition for same sex marriage, or trying to get them to march in a pride parade, or worse! Tried to 'convert' people? *Gasp* Asking people have they tried sex with another man or woman, and all on your time?

In fact, lets not strictly compare situations with LGBT people, what if it was someone shoving their politics on co-workers and customers? Should someone be allowed to canvas for Sinn Fein on company time? What if it was someone from another faith proselytizing? Or what if I, an avid metal fan, started promoting concerts to the customers? Hi, have you heard the Bad News?

Ah now that would be someone pushing the gay "agenda" and you can't have that kind of thing in front of decent God fearing folk.

The whole thing is a complete joke, there is no way anyone should be subjected to anyone preaching at them no matter what the subject matter is. He deserved to be sacked and it sickens me public money is going towards this pay out for this muppet.

gramar · 22-07-2014 11:10am

Is there anyone who gets fired who doesn't sue for unfair dismissal anymore?

Vojera · 22-07-2014 11:23am

Is the message here that if one of my co-workers keeps trying to engage me in conversation about God and telling me that his life has been changed and I tell him that I'm not interested in hearing about it, but he continues so I ask my manager to have a word on my behalf, my manager is actually in the wrong because my co-worker is of a missionary faith?

It seems overly simplistic, but I'm interested in how much proselytism is too much and how much is allowed. When it interferes with work? Or is there a limit?

catallus · 22-07-2014 11:24am

The Equality Authority is just trying to help people by making sure they continue to hear the good news.

mariaalice · 22-07-2014 11:32am

There maybe mental health issues in this it sounds like compulsive behaviour that took the form of religion,.. that an interesting point do we have the right to be protected from the consequences of other peoples mental health problems by our employers.

ScumLord · 22-07-2014 11:55am

So not only are we expected to tolerate Christian mumbo jumbo and accept it could possibly be true. Now people have to listen to their dogma at work whether they like it or not?

Overheal wrote: »

Did anyone read the article without bias?

It does mention the incidences that happened were 'in a coffee shop' 'someone on a motorbike' etc. and he was even told not to do this during his lunch hours?

So, 'business hours' was interpreted by the employer as 9-5 I guess, even if he wasn't working in an official capacity?

In August 2008, he left the office to check on the construction of a footpath. While doing so he met a man with a motorbike to whom he spoke about religion.

That says he was supposed to be doing work outside of the office, he used it as an opportunity to get paid by the state to spread his propaganda.

I thought it was a bit harsh to say he couldn't talk about his religion during lunch hours but how many weeks was he repeating the same dogma over and over again to people that didn't want to hear it anymore. That's a form of harassment. It doesn't say that the management was following him around either so it's a possibility the general public were coming in complaining about the guy stopping them on the street preaching while he should have been at work.

When he's at work he should be working and respecting other peoples right not to be indoctrinated, and not using his state job to seek out more cash cows for his religion to take advantage of.

catallus · 22-07-2014 12:01pm

I'd agree with all of that if they made sure the Angelus was broadcast in all places of work.

kylith · 22-07-2014 12:02pm

catallus wrote: »

There is always a choice; either accept humility in the face of the mystery of existence, or let vanity prevail.

Which can one choose, and remain human?

Gotta love the idea that people who DON'T think that the entire universe was created specifically for them, and who DON'T believe that an all-powerful being is watching over them at all times are the vain ones.

Vojera wrote: »

Is the message here that if one of my co-workers keeps trying to engage me in conversation about God and telling me that his life has been changed and I tell him that I'm not interested in hearing about it, but he continues so I ask my manager to have a word on my behalf, my manager is actually in the wrong because my co-worker is of a missionary faith?

It seems overly simplistic, but I'm interested in how much proselytism is too much and how much is allowed. When it interferes with work? Or is there a limit?

I propose something that will keep everyone happy: They can proselytise as much as they like, but we're allowed to punch them in the face if/when they annoy us.

floggg · 22-07-2014 12:06pm

RDM_83 again wrote: »

I'm not in favour of this judgement BUT unlike on AH (which protects basically everything else apart from religion specifically ) religion is covered by the legislation.
What this case does is show that the equality authority isn't necessarily always correct or sensible to those who would normally cheerlead it and consider it and similar bodies judgement on cases gospel (see gay cake for examples :-\ )

EDIT:by this I am not necessarily saying the NI authority made the wrong call rather the attitude that because they reached that verdict its automatically the 'right one'

I don't think anybody has an issue with the protection of religious beliefs per se - the issue is where the balance was stuck in this participant case between the employees religious freedom and the rights of the employer and other employees.

Religious freedom is not absolute and employers must not accomodate every practice. To do so could potentially do harm to his business, his employee moral and the religious freedom of others.

The propery rights of the employer and other employees to earn a livelihood are also relevant here too.

If this mans activities was creating a negative working environment, affecting employee moral or productivity, doing unnecessary harm to the employers image or deprivation or failing to respect the religious freedom of others than I think the employer should be entitled to restrict his activities.

Again though, it's a question of striking the right balance - and as others have posted the issue may have been that the employer attempted to restrict his expressions of faith outside of working hours or the working premises.

If so, the employers response would have been disproportionate and in breach of equality legislation. I would imagine of the employer had adopted a more tempered approach and sought only to regulate his behavior during working hours, and required the employee to ensure he made it clear he preached only in a private capacity the result may have been different.

Nuance is rarely however appreciated by anybody when it comes to legal matters.

PopePalpatine · 22-07-2014 12:44pm

catallus wrote: »

I'd agree with all of that if they made sure the Angelus was broadcast in all places of work.

And Sieg Heil to you too.

catallus · 22-07-2014 12:46pm

Hi Pope

What on earth do you mean?!

PopePalpatine · 22-07-2014 12:51pm

catallus wrote: »

Hi Pope

What on earth do you mean?!

I would have thought you'd enjoy dragging us back to the 1950s, where the Catholic Gestapo rounded up "fallen women" for imprisonment and torture.

Oh, what does it matter, I know you're a troll.

Buzz Killington the third · 22-07-2014 12:51pm

Religion has no place in the work environment. I'm of the opinion that once you enter an office etc. you must leave your personal beliefs outside. I've heard of multinationals having to build prayer rooms to cater for Muslims and I think it's crazy to be honest. I'd even go as far as to say christmas trees should be banned too.

catallus · 22-07-2014 12:54pm

PopePalpatine wrote: »

I would have thought you'd enjoy dragging us back to the 1950s, where the Catholic Gestapo rounded up "fallen women" for imprisonment and torture.

Jaysus, talk about being deluded by one's own propaganda!

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Oh, what does it matter, I know you're a troll.

I don't know what you're getting at here?

PopePalpatine · 22-07-2014 12:57pm

catallus wrote: »

Jaysus, talk about being deluded by one's own propaganda!

Pot, meet kettle.

Your posts elsewhere suggest that you're a troll, pretending to be some fascist Alive! reader who'd lock his daughter in the basement for kissing boys in any thread about religion or politics.

Buzz Killington the third · 22-07-2014 12:58pm

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Oh, what does it matter, I know you're a troll.

Over 2500 posts and you still don't know the rules of Boards...

catallus · 22-07-2014 12:58pm

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Your posts elsewhere suggest that you're a troll, pretending to be some fascist Alive! reader who'd lock his daughter in the basement for kissing boys in any thread about religion or politics.

I really do think you might have me confused with someone else?

Compulsion to convert

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