Becoming a Trader in Dublin

Sev · 01-03-2014 12:59PM

ixus wrote: »

1. That's personal
2. I don't know because that's personal to them.
3. See 1 & 2
4. I use both manual and automated strategies.

It's strange that you don't have a benchmark performance to compare yourself to your peers. Presumably you know you are outperforming a buy and hold strategy on, say, the market index.

Sev · 01-03-2014 01:13PM

Idu wrote: »

Style of trading is very different to what most people's idea of trading is so r/r% and average return aren't generally things I take into account.

I don't see how r/r% (or Sharpe ratio, or any other similar statistic which measures realized performance versus randomness and inconsistency) isn't the only thing that matters when evaluating your skill as a trader.

odd1 · 09-03-2014 11:21PM

I would like to know the number of traders in dublin working for prop firms making a million plus a year.
'
I would be surprised if many traders are making this kind of money.without been headhunted from London, New york and Asia

Gandalph · 11-03-2014 10:27AM

Are any of these jobs accessible to recent graduates?

ixus · 11-03-2014 11:27AM

Gandalph wrote: »

Are any of these jobs accessible to recent graduates?

Yes. Read the thread again in its entirety.

ixus · 11-03-2014 11:34AM

odd1 wrote: »

I would like to know the number of traders in dublin working for prop firms making a million plus a year.
'
I would be surprised if many traders are making this kind of money.without been headhunted from London, New york and Asia

I'd like to know the number too! I do know several traders who have seven figures net from trading.

Headhunted by who? In the prop world, you don't get any bigger than Virtu or SIG in what they do. With the others, why would you go to those countries? Cost of living, tax etc. If you're making that kind of money your concerns are:

Percentage of Profit Split or Bonus.
Transaction Costs
The size you use in the market you trade and how it affects price.

If you mean head hunted by Investment Banks or Hedge Funds, well, they'd likely use different strategies over different timeframes. This would mean altering your trading style which may prove less profitable.

And, it would be Chicago you'd choose over the other countries. (Unless a tax haven).

odd1 · 22-03-2014 12:17AM

martyoo wrote: »

Hi Ixus,

I've read that certain personality types are more suited to trading. For example introverted types such as INTJ have more success over extroverted types such as ESTJ. Do you think there is any truth in this?

sorry for for going off topic here, i was just reading this thread again and did a google of INTJ for the craic (didn,t know what it meant). anyhow it will bring you on to wikipedia where it talks about personality types.

click on the diagram of cognitive functions and you will get a list of the 16 types of personalities underneath it.
you will know straight away which one you are when you open yours because it will jump off the screen and smack you in the face.

enjoy:D

Gandalph · 23-03-2014 02:15PM

Geneva Trading coming into one of my classes in DCU on Thursday, should be interesting. I think they are promoting their graduate programmes but from what I gather they are closed on the website so looking forward to what they have to say about it.

odd1 · 28-03-2014 02:21AM

Gandalph wrote: »

Geneva Trading coming into one of my classes in DCU on Thursday, should be interesting. I think they are promoting their graduate programmes but from what I gather they are closed on the website so looking forward to what they have to say about it.

how did it go?

Gandalph · 28-03-2014 03:50PM

odd1 wrote: »

how did it go?

Very enlightening. The 2 guys that arrived filled us in the general lives of traders at Geneva, their trading platforms, information sources and other factors in the job. They went through their application process and how to make it stand out, getting started, internship information, etc. The 2 lads were pretty sound too, offering personal help, I have gotten their contacts and discussed getting them in to do a similar talk to our investment society who would love to hear the things they have to say.

We got a guy in from the Irish Institute of Financial Trading to give a talk to the society on tuesday to give some of the younger years a taste of what trading involves. The Geneva talk was more based on black box/algo trading and it's something I personally find very interesting.

bluesteel · 31-03-2014 04:16PM

Gandalph wrote: »

We got a guy in from the Irish Institute of Financial Trading to give a talk to the society on tuesday to give some of the younger years a taste of what trading involves. The Geneva talk was more based on black box/algo trading and it's something I personally find very interesting.

Who was the guy from the " Irish Institute of Financial Trading"?

What is his current or past trading activity/experience? (apart from teaching)

Gandalph · 31-03-2014 05:52PM

bluesteel wrote: »

Who was the guy from the " Irish Institute of Financial Trading"?

What is his current or past trading activity/experience? (apart from teaching)

Thomás Agnew, afaik he started off trading at Barclays over 20 years ago, I think he mentioned he worked for BNP Paribas for a bit too.

stainluss · 11-07-2014 08:46PM

Idu wrote: »

Answered your questions in bold above. I would say to anyone who was applying for positions in the past or in the future that even if you don't get an interview 1st time around or you don't make the cut in the interviews don't let that discourage you from applying elsewhere or even reapplying the next time around. The hiring process is quite fickle and the judgements are best guesses the most of the time. IMO there is no one thing that can tell you who will be a success so don't be discouraged by rejection and take it as a sign that you're not qualified.

Thanks for all the info you've offered so far on this thread guys

Was just wondering how many interview rounds there typically are for PI, Myriad etc. You mentioned 2 in bold, is the 1st typically behavioural questions and the 2nd technical or can it be mixed?

Would the technical/competency questions typically be focused to their line of business (e.g. futures) or should you expect general market questions also? It can be hard to guess the biting point between what knowledge you need on the way in and what's covered in training...

Brussels Sprout · 12-07-2014 09:52PM

2 years ago I went for a job with Virtu and went pretty far in the process so I'll just give a brief summary of my experience:

I originally had studied Chemical Engineering and worked in that area for a number of years before going back and doing a MSc in Mathematical Modelling & Scientific Computing when I was 28. After graduating I was at a loose end for a while as my qualification was quite broad. I happened across the Virtu ad one day on a website and applied. Got called up to Dublin for an assessment in their office in Dawson street. It's a pretty humble place. Zero bling, no ornate furniture or even a front desk. You walk in the door and are sitting behind the traders who are all sitting there with 8 screens in front of them. I did 2 IQ type tests in a room on my own and that was it.

A few days later I got a call back saying that I'd scored well in the tests and they'd like me to come back and be interviewed by some of their traders. This turned out to be the most informal interview I ever had in my life. The 2 lads interviewing me were younger than me and I was there in a suit while they were in jeans and t-shirts (one of them had holes in his t-shirt from wear and tear-not fashion ones which was a bit weird). They gave me a pen and paper and asked me a series of logic problems. I had to talk my way through the answers. An example (and the easiest) question was:

You have 25 race horses and want to find the fastest 3 in order. You don't have a stopwatch but do have access to a 5 lane race track. What's the minimum number of races you need to run to determine the 3 horses?

I was in there for about 2 hours and really got a grilling. I wasn't too confident as I'd struggled with one of the questions and from what I'd read online beforehand, they tended to have a very unforgiving attitude to anything like that. However I got a call back to have a video interview with a trader in London from their Dublin office. So I went back up the following week and had a one-on-one interview with an English bloke which was more of the same. I had mentioned on my CV that I had solved a lot of the Project Euler problems so I was asked to talk my way through one of the solutions (the trader actually blew me away by telling me, on the spot, how I could have solved the problem I brought up in one line instead of the laborious method that I had been so proud of). He also gave me a Fermi problem which I was very comfortable with as I'd done a fair bit of that in my Engineering work . The actual problem was:

How many tablets could you fit in this 500ml Volvic water bottle that I have in my hand?

(the actual answer isn't too important but it's just to show that you're comfortable with making estimates, assumptions and converting units on the fly)

So after that I got flown over to London to their office in Mayfair for an all day interview. That was quite the experience:

I was in there for 10 hours. They brought in a series of traders who peppered me with logic problems. Like the Irish interviews there was a little bit about my background with really that was of minor importance as they quickly moved on to testing my intellectual capabilities. I asked each one of the traders about their own backgrounds and they were an impressive bunch. The first guy was a Bulgarian mathematics graduate from Harvard. Second spoke like a cockney geezer and was actually wearing a shell suit (I swear I'm not making this up). He told me that he'd paid for his Masters in Cambridge from the money he had made from arbitrage-like trading on Betfair. By the end of the day I'd also been interviewed by an American, a Canadian, a guy from Luxembourg and the boss man who was Lebanese. As the day wore on the questions got harder and harder and I got more and more fatigued. In the very last interview I didn't get anywhere near solving an urn-style probability question that they set for me and after that I knew the jig was up.

They phoned me a few days letter with the "impressive but not good enough" line. Had I got through the round I bombed out on, I'd still have had to go to New York for the final interview. Their interview process is essentially a series of filters that only the top ~0.1% of candidates will make it through. I'm not saying that to discourage people. I just think that people should go in with their eyes open and realise that it's a long shot. If you're still interested, read a lot of logic problem books and do a lot of IQ tests.

odd1 · 13-07-2014 12:15AM

Ah well, their loss! Did you apply anywhere else?

Brussels Sprout · 13-07-2014 11:03AM

No, that was the only trading role I went for.

freeze4real · 18-07-2014 10:49PM

http://gradireland.com/graduate-jobs/jobs/246350

A couple of trading firms are hiring now.

Positive Equity and Geneva are is also hiring.

Bateman · 21-07-2014 03:25PM

That GradIreland website is decent, remember well how much I used to constantly check it, don't envy the graduates these days though, best of luck to all

odd1 · 23-07-2014 12:55AM

Lads

Could do with a few pointers on how or what Excel is used for in trading.

Any good websites/tutorials recommended. Its hard to find something when you don't know what to look for.

PM me if you don't want to post here.

Thanks.

Creeby · 23-07-2014 09:12AM

Just wanted to ask the professional traders on here what are the hours like when working in a prop function?

Is it a case of as long as you profit they dont care what hours or do you have to be on your desk at certain times etc?

Cheers for any reply

Nika Bolokov · 19-09-2014 08:46PM

I think it would be helpful for many people reading this thread especially those at college to have a bit more detail on some of these firms.

Its my understanding in some cases, you trade your own money, and pay the firm rent basically from your profits (If any) to use their systems.

You make a pittance when your training (which is in stark contrast to a large firm in London) and work very long hours. You may also be asked to help out in HR and do general office admin at times.

Would anyone know which if any of the firms listed in post one this applies too ? (I may be wrong)

Also the days of the gut instinct trader are gone. The assumptions underpinning complex models built in London, New York and Tokyo move markets now, not much else.

daheff · 19-09-2014 10:41PM

odd1 wrote: »

Lads

Could do with a few pointers on how or what Excel is used for in trading.

Any good websites/tutorials recommended. Its hard to find something when you don't know what to look for.

PM me if you don't want to post here.

Thanks.

you would use Excel to crunch numbers, pull data from databases (eg positions, day trades, fx rates etc)

i'd suggest you learn VBA as that would be a serious help for this kind of role

Bateman · 22-09-2014 12:15PM

Most of the questions being asked on this page were answered further back in the thread, as for the firms themselves, check their websites/google new items on them.

ixus · 22-09-2014 12:57PM

Nika Bolokov wrote: »

I think it would be helpful for many people reading this thread especially those at college to have a bit more detail on some of these firms.

Its my understanding in some cases, you trade your own money, and pay the firm rent basically from your profits (If any) to use their systems.

You make a pittance when your training (which is in stark contrast to a large firm in London) and work very long hours. You may also be asked to help out in HR and do general office admin at times.

Would anyone know which if any of the firms listed in post one this applies too ? (I may be wrong)

Also the days of the gut instinct trader are gone. The assumptions underpinning complex models built in London, New York and Tokyo move markets now, not much else.

Your understanding is misinformed. You should start by reading the thread from the beginning.

Trading firms have operating costs; IT,Accounting, Risk, Infrastructure, Software etc. It is no different from being self-employed or running your own business in terms of operational costs.

In terms of the earning while training aspect. Think of it like this; if I said to you that you could train to be a professional soccer or rugby player for a period of time on little or no wages with the chance to become one at the end of training. Would you take the offer? Someone who really wanted to be a Trader would jump at that.

Basic wages are low to keep overheads low. Profit splits are high as that's what Trading is about, making profit. Why would you pay a non-performing asset a high wage?

I'm not sure what you mean by a large firm but, generally speaking, what happens here is that you get a higher basic wage with a very low profit split. So, really, it depends on what your incentive/motivation is.

Regarding long hours. Being in Dublin has the advantage of trading European opening hours from 7am to US closing at 9pm (Dublin time). It is not work for the sake of it. It is working those hours because of opportunity to make money. Generally speaking, a Trader will not be at their desk from 7am to 9pm. There is a massive amount of down time where they come and go as they please.

If you wanted to get an experienced trader to impart some of their knowledge to you, do you think it might be a good idea to offer to help them out on some research or do odd jobs for them? You have no divine right to their knowledge. You need to build a relationship with them.

"Gut instinct" is most certainly not gone. Algos and computer models get things wrong, mis-price and overreact a hell of a lot. Generally, they are at their best when volume is average and volatility is low. I'm at my best when volume and volatility pick up.

You're operating on hearsay from where ever you picked it up. A number of Trader's here have provided information to the contrary but, you've neglected to read the whole thread. Too much work?

ixus · 22-09-2014 01:28PM

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

No, that was the only trading role I went for.

Did you pursue it as a career after your experience?

Nika Bolokov · 22-09-2014 10:36PM

Trading on gut instinct is gone. You might make a large macro decision but active day trading on gut feeling is a thing of the past.

Algos are far more reliable than humans who mis hear orders from sales, make fat finger errors, enter in the legs of trades the wrong way and mis hedge etc. When you consider the billions of algo trades done daily it really does not warrant comparison with the amount of human errors made daily.

No human can compete speed wise and much of the worlds trading is done in dark pools so your gut instinct judgement is now only based on a partial view of the market.

Young guys reading this thread need to be aware of the consequences of being loss making in some firms and the costs involved in some firms.

Also bear in mind the future prospects for thus form of trading.

I have read the thread from the beginning and nowhere did I find the above answers. Many 19/20 year olds read these type of threads and need the full picture.

ixus · 22-09-2014 11:09PM

Flash crash
Knight Capital
Mini flash crash as algos reacted to a hacked tweet from Associated Press on White House explosion.
Daily examples of individual flash crashes from Nanex.

I've seen algos & hft do the most stupid and damaging things. There are very few who are at the top.

What does speed have to do with a Trader making money? No one suggested competing for speed.

Where is your knowledge coming from? Are you a Trader?

ixus · 22-09-2014 11:18PM

In respect to your comment of day trading or human decision based trading being a thing of the past. I would have to say the evidence that I see daily suggess otherwise.

You should also note that not one poster here has said trading for a living is easy or for every one. The purpose of the thread is merely to provide some insight and answer questions where possible.

best_worst · 23-09-2014 12:15AM

Nika Bolokov wrote: »

Trading on gut instinct is gone. You might make a large macro decision but active day trading on gut feeling is a thing of the past.

Algos are far more reliable than humans who mis hear orders from sales, make fat finger errors, enter in the legs of trades the wrong way and mis hedge etc. When you consider the billions of algo trades done daily it really does not warrant comparison with the amount of human errors made daily.

No human can compete speed wise and much of the worlds trading is done in dark pools so your gut instinct judgement is now only based on a partial view of the market.

Young guys reading this thread need to be aware of the consequences of being loss making in some firms and the costs involved in some firms.

Also bear in mind the future prospects for thus form of trading.

I have read the thread from the beginning and nowhere did I find the above answers. Many 19/20 year olds read these type of threads and need the full picture.

if they are going to trade , i think the average person is better try their luck at swing trading which often needs only doing a few times per year per stock

day trading is incredibly stressful and nurtures a gambling instinct

freeze4real · 03-12-2014 08:13PM

http://gradireland.com/graduate-jobs/jobs/259494- GT are recruiting again.

Becoming a Trader in Dublin

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