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Becoming a Trader in Dublin

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    #32
    ixus
    Registered Users Posts: 2,436 ✭✭✭ixus


    Value Hunter wrote: »
    Whats the average annual return of a professional trader?

    How long is a piece of string? Not being a wise guy, but there is no answer to that.


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    #33
    martyoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 872 ✭✭✭martyoo


    Hi Ixus,

    I've read that certain personality types are more suited to trading. For example introverted types such as INTJ have more success over extroverted types such as ESTJ. Do you think there is any truth in this?


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    #34
    ixus
    Registered Users Posts: 2,436 ✭✭✭ixus


    odd1 wrote: »
    Ixus
    I have heard/read that the percentage of interns that make it as a trader is very low, and burn out is very high of those few that make it.
    As your in the industry, what's your view on this?

    There are so many different factors when it comes to "making it". Someone may have every desirable trait/requirement on paper. But, when they are put to work, they're not up to the job, won't put in the hours, can't manage their risk or the pressure i.e. the job is just not suited to them. I think this happens in most professions but it is hidden better because it's difficult to fire someone.

    I'm the only one still trading out of my group. I know of groups where no one is still trading and where everyone is still trading. Stats are misleading. When I started, I didn't care whether anyone else made it or not. My focus was on applying my training, risk management and using my aptitude to identify opportunity. As an individual who wants to become a trader. It doesn't matter. The percentage that make it is a company's problem.

    The question a person should be asking is, what will I learn here, how does the program work, does this suit the type of person I am. Will I develop here etc. Same as any other job really.


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    #35
    ixus
    Registered Users Posts: 2,436 ✭✭✭ixus


    martyoo wrote: »
    Hi Ixus,

    I've read that certain personality types are more suited to trading. For example introverted types such as INTJ have more success over extroverted types such as ESTJ. Do you think there is any truth in this?

    I like rational and logic myself. However, the market dynamics often move in complete opposite to expectations. Happens all the time. Especially with intra-day volatility. If a person can't handle that, they are not suited to that sort of time-frame.

    I think that as long as an individual knows their limitations and trades a setup/market that suits them, they'll be ok. It's often about finding the market, trading style that suits an individuals personality best.


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    #36
    odd1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 201 ✭✭odd1


    ixus wrote: »
    There are so many different factors when it comes to "making it". Someone may have every desirable trait/requirement on paper. But, when they are put to work, they're not up to the job, won't put in the hours, can't manage their risk or the pressure i.e. the job is just not suited to them. I think this happens in most professions but it is hidden better because it's difficult to fire someone.

    I'm the only one still trading out of my group. I know of groups where no one is still trading and where everyone is still trading. Stats are misleading. When I started, I didn't care whether anyone else made it or not. My focus was on applying my training, risk management and using my aptitude to identify opportunity. As an individual who wants to become a trader. It doesn't matter. The percentage that make it is a company's problem.

    The question a person should be asking is, what will I learn here, how does the program work, does this suit the type of person I am. Will I develop here etc. Same as any other job really.[/quote

    Thanks ixus

    I think that way too...

    What do you think of this professional certificate course?
    Course content and training is supposedly the same as the training given by prop firms.

    Would it give an edge at interview?


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    #37
    ixus
    Registered Users Posts: 2,436 ✭✭✭ixus


    odd1 wrote: »
    What do you think of this professional certificate course?
    Course content and training is supposedly the same as the training given by prop firms.

    Would it give an edge at interview?

    Not sure which course you're talking about?

    Showing that you have gone the extra mile to get into trading and educate yourself on it has to make the difference. You can learn all this for free but sometimes you need direction. The more knowledge someone has or can display about a role the better. Same as any job.


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    #38
    arrowloopboy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,154 ✭✭✭arrowloopboy


    ixus wrote: »
    How long is a piece of string? Not being a wise guy, but there is no answer to that.

    Or in a great many cases, How short is a piece of string ?


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    #39
    Sev
    Registered Users Posts: 1,328 ✭✭✭Sev


    ixus wrote: »
    I'm open to answering questions (where I can).

    What is your realised sharpe? (computed annually)
    What is considered a good sharpe for a trader?
    What is the realised sharpe of a typical trader?
    Do you execute your trades manually?


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    #40
    arrowloopboy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,154 ✭✭✭arrowloopboy


    Is M2 not now more widely used ?

    Or what is the best way to compare funds in relation to their returns and the amount of risk taken to achieve said returns.

    Big returns mean nothing to me if the fund manager was gambling to achieve them,Michael Platt of Bluecrest consistently returns about 15/20% ,yet his biggest drawdown from peak to trough in 10 odd years has been about 4% if I'm remembering correctly.
    Yet the s/p of Berkshire got cut in HALF during the financial crisis(and I know I doesn't matter from a long term value investors point of view,and yes its recovered since) but that still doesn't sit easy with me.


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    #41
    freeze4real
    Registered Users Posts: 2,540 ✭✭✭freeze4real


    Let's call a spade a spade doing that course will not guarantee you an interview with the likes of SIG and Virtu. TBH it won't. Most quantitative trading firms prefer individuals not to have prior knowledge of trading.

    The likes of SIG and virtu don't need proof of profitable trading or a keen interest in finance.

    Those who're working come from all background physics maths science etc. not all will have an interest in finance.


    Ixus has listed most if the trading firms in Ireland and has briefly talked about how they differ. While they've some similarities, it can be said of those thy hire. SIG/Virtu are quantitatively based while GT/PE also look for those from quantitative background but not to the degree as SIG/Virtu does.


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    #42
    freeze4real
    Registered Users Posts: 2,540 ✭✭✭freeze4real


    Worth a read.

    http://www.positive.ie/blog/2014/02/10/you-got-the-job/


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    #43
    djayforza
    Registered Users Posts: 135 ✭✭djayforza


    I have found all the info in this thread very eye opening. I do realize it is a tough business but I still want in. I have just applied to positive equity. Hopefully I get a favourable response.


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    #44
    smndly
    Registered Users Posts: 215 ✭✭smndly


    Hey this is a really interesting thread. Ive got a bit of a noob question. Who's money are you trading with? Is it your own or the firms? And do you get a base salary and then a percentage of what you make or is your pay purely based on how well you perform?


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    #45
    mono627
    Registered Users Posts: 288 ✭✭mono627


    smndly wrote: »
    Hey this is a really interesting thread. Ive got a bit of a noob question. Who's money are you trading with? Is it your own or the firms? And do you get a base salary and then a percentage of what you make or is your pay purely based on how well you perform?

    Some people trade their own. Some people trade the companies. Most senior traders will have some amount of their own money down as a reserve.

    Typically trainees will get a base salary when they start off as well as a percentage of what they make.

    This is typical of the futures trading houses in Dublin and will vary slightly depending on the company.


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    #46
    OttoPilot
    Registered Users Posts: 540 ✭✭✭OttoPilot


    Hi, I'm going to be finishing my Finance degree in May with either a 2:1 or (hopefully) a 1:1. Only realised in the last 12 months or so it is not really maths focused enough to help me become a trader. I did some maths in first year which might help me but my leaving cert maths was pretty poor (D1, honours). I was thinking about repeating LC maths next year when I think I can get an A to demonstrate my numerical skills more. Would that benefit me or is LC maths too basic for employers to care? Seems like a waste to go back and do a more quantitatively focused degree now since it will take 3 years... or is there a one year diploma maths course that would make me stand out?

    I have a job offer to be a fund accountant and they say they will support me if I decide to go for postgraduate study. So I was thinking about applying for UCD's Masters in Quant Finance since I'll be earning some money at last! I know this would be a tough route pt over 2 years but it would probably give me the best chance, right?

    Also another route I was thinking of going next year was taking CFA exams? Are these beneficial to becoming a trader i.e. will they help me stand out? Thanks


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    #47
    sawdoubters
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,289 ✭✭✭sawdoubters


    trading has all moved to computers


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    #48
    freeze4real
    Registered Users Posts: 2,540 ✭✭✭freeze4real


    OttoPilot wrote: »
    Hi, I'm going to be finishing my Finance degree in May with either a 2:1 or (hopefully) a 1:1. Only realised in the last 12 months or so it is not really maths focused enough to help me become a trader. I did some maths in first year which might help me but my leaving cert maths was pretty poor (D1, honours). I was thinking about repeating LC maths next year when I think I can get an A to demonstrate my numerical skills more. Would that benefit me or is LC maths too basic for employers to care? Seems like a waste to go back and do a more quantitatively focused degree now since it will take 3 years... or is there a one year diploma maths course that would make me stand out?

    I have a job offer to be a fund accountant and they say they will support me if I decide to go for postgraduate study. So I was thinking about applying for UCD's Masters in Quant Finance since I'll be earning some money at last! I know this would be a tough route pt over 2 years but it would probably give me the best chance, right?

    Also another route I was thinking of going next year was taking CFA exams? Are these beneficial to becoming a trader i.e. will they help me stand out? Thanks


    Depends on what kind of trading you want to algo or the likes of Geneva trading or positive equity.

    I can tell you now that with the algo trading firms like susquehanna they might not call you for en interview even after doing the quantitative finance masters.

    But with P.E or GT they might. Do a search on LinkedIn those who work there do come from less quantitative background like those from algo trading firm.

    Its also noting that it might take you several years to be a trader, most of my mates who are it took them 4 - 6 years working their way up.

    The CFA stands out, it will make you a more desirable candidate but it could be for the wrong reasons.

    If you want to be a trader know what kind especially the one you think you can handle. Once you've done so research on how you can get there. Don't limit Ireland has the only market, there's k even though its competitive, Holland, Canada etc. Also widen your contacts, use linkedln. Most of the tradings jobs I've come across aren't advertised.

    @Ixus if you want to update the list - shelbourne markets had a trading position for a graduate up a few months ago, citi has some trading positions up in dublin, Paddypower has/have a role for a risk trader and sports trader. There's also a food trader position ( commodities ) a while ago.


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    #49
    arrowloopboy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,154 ✭✭✭arrowloopboy


    This sound like an awfull lot of bodder/bullsh1t lads,do all ye wanting to get into trading ,already trade a successful reasonable sized LIVE account ?
    It sounds like a horrible job lads :rolleyes:.


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    #50
    mono627
    Registered Users Posts: 288 ✭✭mono627


    arrowloopboy wrote: »
    This sound like an awfull lot of bodder/bullsh1t lads,do all ye wanting to get into trading ,already trade a successful reasonable sized LIVE account ?
    It sounds like a horrible job lads :rolleyes:.

    I think it's a great job.


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    #51
    arrowloopboy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,154 ✭✭✭arrowloopboy


    mono627 wrote: »
    I think it's a great job.

    Maybe it is,but set hours and answering to someone else ,whilst only receiving a small % of the profits wouldn't appeal to me.
    Would you not be better gathering up 100k and and doing it for yourself ?


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    #52
    OttoPilot
    Registered Users Posts: 540 ✭✭✭OttoPilot


    arrowloopboy wrote: »
    Maybe it is,but set hours and answering to someone else ,whilst only receiving a small % of the profits wouldn't appeal to me.
    Would you not be better gathering up 100k and and doing it for yourself ?

    You just described any employee in a business there. The trade off for lower wages is less risk (none really if you choose not to invest your own money) whereas you could lose 100k of your own money if you do it yourself.


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    #53
    arrowloopboy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,154 ✭✭✭arrowloopboy


    OttoPilot wrote: »
    You just described any employee in a business there. The trade off for lower wages is less risk (none really if you choose not to invest your own money) whereas you could lose 100k of your own money if you do it yourself.
    Not unless you own your own business,and I presume if you could manage to loose 100% of your bankroll,their wouldn't be too many firms headhunting you to lose their clients money:eek:.
    So,do you have to show an aptitude for been a consistent successful trader,or just programmable ,like a guard ,to get in the door with said firms ?


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    #54
    desktyr
    Registered Users Posts: 1 ✭desktyr


    Hi,
    Really interesting thread guys. I've no professional financial experience, but am interested in shifting careers and getting into the quant trading side of things, SIG or Virturo. I'm 24, with a first in maths from Trinity, and currently working in digital marketing. Is my age/other career potentially an issue to getting an entry-level trader position? What would be the best way to give myself an edge over undergrad applicants?
    Cheers


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    #55
    mono627
    Registered Users Posts: 288 ✭✭mono627


    arrowloopboy wrote: »
    Maybe it is,but set hours and answering to someone else ,whilst only receiving a small % of the profits wouldn't appeal to me.
    Would you not be better gathering up 100k and and doing it for yourself ?

    I do trade my own account.

    I also went through one of these training programmes to learn my trade. You forget that everyone starts somewhere and these training programmes give you the platform to learn to trade. Not everyone is in a position to put down the margin required to trade leveraged products.


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    #56
    arrowloopboy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,154 ✭✭✭arrowloopboy


    mono627 wrote: »
    I do trade my own account.

    I also went through one of these training programmes to learn my trade. You forget that everyone starts somewhere and these training programmes give you the platform to learn to trade. Not everyone is in a position to put down the margin required to trade leveraged products.

    True,the training programme you went through,did it deal with the dynamics of trading as a whole ,or was it specific to a niche area according to which ever firm you got in with.
    Explain the process you went through,what you learned ,and what instruments you learned about,if you wouldn't mind.

    Thanks,

    Arrow


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    #57
    mono627
    Registered Users Posts: 288 ✭✭mono627


    arrowloopboy wrote: »
    True,the training programme you went through,did it deal with the dynamics of trading as a whole ,or was it specific to a niche area according to which ever firm you got in with.
    Explain the process you went through,what you learned ,and what instruments you learned about,if you wouldn't mind.

    Thanks,

    Arrow

    Without sounding like a d*ck I'd prefer not to say, I'm not sure they'd appreciate the training programme being discussed in detail.

    What I will say is that it was pretty comprehensive and a lot of senior traders were quite happy to give their time to help along the way.

    In the end I think everyone finds their own way in the markets to a certain degree and it certainly seemed that the ones who put the work/hours in had the best results.


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    #58
    arrowloopboy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,154 ✭✭✭arrowloopboy


    mono627 wrote: »
    Without sounding like a d*ck I'd prefer not to say, I'm not sure they'd appreciate the training programme being discussed in detail.

    What I will say is that it was pretty comprehensive and a lot of senior traders were quite happy to give their time to help along the way.

    In the end I think everyone finds their own way in the markets to a certain degree and it certainly seemed that the ones who put the work/hours in had the best results.

    Oh,so your involved with a new group of Turtles,is Richard Dennis hidden away somewhere up there in the big smoke.
    No offence,but that's pretty useless.Thanks anyway.


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    #59
    odd1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 201 ✭✭odd1


    How bout yourself arrow? How did you learn


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    #60
    ixus
    Registered Users Posts: 2,436 ✭✭✭ixus


    Sev wrote: »
    What is your realised sharpe? (computed annually)
    What is considered a good sharpe for a trader?
    What is the realised sharpe of a typical trader?
    Do you execute your trades manually?

    1. That's personal
    2. I don't know because that's personal to them.
    3. See 1 & 2
    4. I use both manual and automated strategies.


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    #61
    ixus
    Registered Users Posts: 2,436 ✭✭✭ixus


    freeze4real wrote: »
    Let's call a spade a spade doing that course will not guarantee you an interview with the likes of SIG and Virtu. TBH it won't. Most quantitative trading firms prefer individuals not to have prior knowledge of trading.

    The likes of SIG and virtu don't need proof of profitable trading or a keen interest in finance.

    Those who're working come from all background physics maths science etc. not all will have an interest in finance.


    Ixus has listed most if the trading firms in Ireland and has briefly talked about how they differ. While they've some similarities, it can be said of those thy hire. SIG/Virtu are quantitatively based while GT/PE also look for those from quantitative background but not to the degree as SIG/Virtu does.

    This would be correct. I believe I mentioned earlier, or elsewhere, that SIG only want Phd level or there about these days. It's no secret, just look at their website.


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