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Students: Should they get free fees and do they benefit society?

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Comments

  • #62
    orchidsrpretty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,154 ✭✭✭orchidsrpretty


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Well I agree on the disadvantaged students front. They need every help they can get. UCD is better than it lets on though. It has produced some world class scientists.


    Scientists from one (science) faculty though?

    what about all the wa(nk)ster solicitors/lawyers or whatever is the correct term taught there? We could do without them! :P

    I believe in grants etc for disadvantaged students is for the betterment of society overall, not that 'they' nessecarily 'need every help they can get', but if we value our society and really want to progress into some meaningful existence (transcendence type race), we need to either exterminate the 'undesirable's' or really put 'them' on a pedestal (Humane option here obvisiously); and give 'them' a multitude of options, rather than make 'them' break their 'bollix' earning an education. If we want to break the cycle of impoverished people, we nearly have to start treating 'them' better then 'ourselves'! (easier said then done) If people can't see that then we are all doomed until the day of lawlessness/end times and it won't matter anymore. And that concludes my rant, thank you for listening. I'll now collect my noble prizes! Danke schön!

    Adios. :D:p


  • #63
    B.A._Baracus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,309 ✭✭✭✭B.A._Baracus


    rom wrote: »
    Don't usually post on this forum but am I the only one to find it ironic that this comes from someone that is the polar opposite of a "benefit to society" seeing what you post about in other threads perhaps you should go back to playing your xbox/PS3, smoking in your car with your kids while living in your state provided housing while working on the side and not declaring for tax.

    If most people "worked the system" then there would be no system to work.

    Would you go and ....
    emigrate
    :rolleyes:


    Oh, oh, oh... Rom.
    Trying to get the personal dagger out are we? :pac: I mean taking the time to actually click on my profile and view my other posts in various boards forums? Geez I really must have hit a nerve there buddy :pac:


    Oh and for the record don't quit your job to become a detective. While yes, I am on the dole and yes I do smoke I dont have kids, I aint in social housing and I don't have a car... actually FFS!!!! I am writing that and I was realised how fucking sad can you get? :pac: You would have to of gone through dozens & dozens of posts to know that of me. bahahahaha. Like everything aside... do you have a life? like fuck me, I couldnt be arsed going through so many posts of someone.

    But I believe in replying to someones views since you gave your opinion on mine.... and they are that I wipe my ass with your opinion :) You can come on here and spout utter crap. Life is dog eat dog. You would screw a person and the system over for 100 euro.


  • #64
    Shakespeare's Sister
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,412 ✭✭✭Shakespeare's Sister


    As a collective, people can totally benefit society, and that collective is made up of individuals, so of course a person can benefit society.


  • #65
    Turtwig
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    Yes and no.

    Free fees are a great idea. So yes on that count.

    There's too many people in college and courses. Most of whom learn and retain fck all. It's just a gateway to a job. Qualification factory if you will. Companies should train an employee in whatever skills they need. Not this asshats system where a person spends possibly six years in college. Learns fck all, then spends another year and a half learning the relevant stuff on the job. Jesus, like cut out the excess train the employee yourself and have the state concentrate on getting each individual extremely well rounded and supported in what every career path they choose.

    By my reckoning there is no such thing as a Mickey mouse course. There all are that but society needs musicians; people who know strange sht about stones; the crabs of a sea on a derelict island; that bit of seaweed; those thatched roofs; them weird snails, this really odd painting. Variety is the spice of life and education should provide that but to only those who are interested. We need most mockery mouse courses but what we don't need them is them to be about getting jobs. Or judged by that criteria

    Jobs should be training, apprenticeships etc.
    Courses for knowledge of a society should be publicly available but only state funded in exceptional cases. Everybody else pays their way. Ideally most of these people would have jobs they'd just be pursuing these courses as a pastime or hobby.

    The state should ensure that everyone has a really well rounded education. It's up to companies or whatever necessary agency to provide the training and skills for most jobs. Most, if not all, degrees, diplomas are an inefficient waste of years and money.


  • #66
    rom
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,149 ✭✭✭rom


    B.A._Baracus wrote: »
    Oh, oh, oh... Rom.
    Trying to get the personal dagger out are we? :pac: I mean taking the time to actually click on my profile and view my other posts in various boards forums? Geez I really must have hit a nerve there buddy :pac:


    Oh and for the record don't quit your job to become a detective. While yes, I am on the dole and yes I do smoke I dont have kids, I aint in social housing and I don't have a car... actually FFS!!!! I am writing that and I was realised how fucking sad can you get? :pac: You would have to of gone through dozens & dozens of posts to know that of me. bahahahaha. Like everything aside... do you have a life? like fuck me, I couldnt be arsed going through so many posts of someone.

    But I believe in replying to someones views since you gave your opinion on mine.... and they are that I wipe my ass with your opinion :) You can come on here and spout utter crap. Life is dog eat dog. You would screw a person and the system over for 100 euro.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=91276224&postcount=625


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  • #67
    B.A._Baracus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,309 ✭✭✭✭B.A._Baracus


    rom wrote: »
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=91276224&postcount=625

    ehhh... yeah?
    you alright in the head? :confused:


  • #68
    old_aussie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,409 ✭✭✭old_aussie


    Make them pay the fees back when qualified.

    A small tax percentage of their income.


  • #69
    shruikan2553
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,113 ✭✭✭shruikan2553


    challengemaster wrote: »
    The person with 85% overall for a year doesn't exist, considering most exams are essentially marked out of 85%.

    =>70% is a 1.1 with 16% of graduates nationally achieving that result for their degree (from a 2012 article). I'd be willing to bet almost all of those were in the 70.1 -> 75.0% range.

    Maybe in final year but speaking from experience getting 85%+ is definetly possible in every other year.


  • #70
    Teyla Emmagan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,638 ✭✭✭Teyla Emmagan


    No free fees. Instead a decent loan system that is accessible to all and has low interest. And a debt you can never walk away from until it's paid back.


  • #71
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 24,773 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    _Redzer_ wrote: »
    Why not being in free fees but not for repeat years.

    This is already the case, you only get one shot at each year. Say you do first year in one course, then drop out and start another. You have to pay the fees for the first year in the new course but then free fees kick in again for second year.

    Overall I would not be in favour of introducing fees and definitely not a loan system. People pay enough tax already in this country without introducing more burden on people. The elephant in the room of course is people who leave the country straight away and pay no taxes here, but its unfair on those who stay and work if fees are loan are introduced to catch those who leave.


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  • #72
    GalwayGuy2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,269 ✭✭✭GalwayGuy2


    In the current climate you're expected to have a degree of some sort. I don't agree with it, but as long as it's like this, then 'free' fees are a must.

    Honestly, I'd rather college lost prestige and turned into just a higher level of Fetac. More aimed towards work than 'self fulfilment' or even education. Sure, teach critical thinking skills, and all the stuff you want, but college education can be a little bit aimless.


  • #73
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 12,694 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    A mixed loan and grant system, provided it has a limit and you do not end up with a debt of 50k by the time you graduate. Apparently we have the highest participation rate in third level in the work( source the RTE news :P ) That cant be good for society not every one needs or is suitable for third level.


  • #74
    abbir
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 773 ✭✭✭abbir


    shruikan2553 wrote: »
    Maybe in final year but speaking from experience getting 85%+ is definetly possible in every other year.

    It's possible in final year too.


  • #75
    Henlars67
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,272 ✭✭✭Henlars67


    I cost the state a considerable amount for my education.

    €188 a week BTEA plus free fees.

    Paid tax consistently for 11 years beforehand though, so don't feel anyways guilty about it.

    I do however believe that I have an obligation to actually go into college, learn something and get decent grades.

    Far too many students miss loads of lectures , fail exams, drop out etc. which is a complete waste of the money the state has paid for their grants, fees etc.


  • #76
    Backstreet Moyes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 9,822 ✭✭✭Backstreet Moyes


    The main problem is before the leaving cert all the talk is about college without people knowing what they wanted to do. I was interested in Finance and got my Finance Degree but i knew nothing about the course really. You just get loads of choices without really knowing the details of the course. I know people who went to college and had little idea of the course and dropped out because they didn't like it. I remember we all were brought in a room and asked to tick of three choices for college ticking in order of preference. I done this without having a clue really what each course was fully about. This needs to change and students should be more informed about what they are getting into.


  • #77
    thelad95
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,812 ✭✭✭thelad95


    Nuts102 wrote: »
    The main problem is before the leaving cert all the talk is about college without people knowing what they wanted to do. I was interested in Finance and got my Finance Degree but i knew nothing about the course really. You just get loads of choices without really knowing the details of the course. I know people who went to college and had little idea of the course and dropped out because they didn't like it. I remember we all were brought in a room and asked to tick of three choices for college ticking in order of preference. I done this without having a clue really what each course was fully about. This needs to change and students should be more informed about what they are getting into.

    To be fair, if students do the research, there is nearly an encyclopedic amount of information available about most course. From what is taught on each module to watching a video of a sample lecture or contacting lecturers by e-mail, there is a world of information out there nowadays.


  • #78
    TimeToShine
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,880 ✭✭✭TimeToShine


    There is no scale in this country. In the US you have the big colleges catering for entire states - here we have multiple all for our tiny population. UCD, UCC, TCD, NUIG, UL, etc. all offering Engineering, Science etc. courses. When you get to the more specific modules in third year you'll find 20 people taking particular subjects. In the US/UK you'll have 200+.

    What is arguably more important is the research funding. It doesn't matter if X college has the top researchers in the country, Y college must of course get it's slice of the funding even if it's miles behind X in terms of talent, personnel and equipment. Once again I won't name names for the sake of starting an "us vs. them" argument but if you have done 4 years in college and are looking to do a PhD you will know full well which university in this country is leading the way in your research department. So why the **** should any other college get funding? There should be three universities in this country, UCD and TCD to cover the capital and UCC for the rest of the country.

    Economies of scale apparently just doesn't apply to us, so any mickey mouse college will get just as much funding as whoever is at the top because it's "fair". This leads research teams in these top colleges to reach out to private and semi-state companies, who exploit this research and use it to milk more money out of the average guy who already pays his taxes.


  • #79
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 12,694 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Nuts102 wrote: »
    The main problem is before the leaving cert all the talk is about college without people knowing what they wanted to do. I was interested in Finance and got my Finance Degree but i knew nothing about the course really. You just get loads of choices without really knowing the details of the course. I know people who went to college and had little idea of the course and dropped out because they didn't like it. I remember we all were brought in a room and asked to tick of three choices for college ticking in order of preference. I done this without having a clue really what each course was fully about. This needs to change and students should be more informed about what they are getting into.

    First off at 18 how are you suppose to know what you want to do, you will change as you grow up, no matter what career guidance you get, no matter how good the career guidance teacher is, you can not know what something is like till you try it. Something like 80% of people can do 80% of jobs so only about 20% of jobs are specialized. Too many people are going to college in Ireland because the alternatives have not been developed properly. I bet if you offered a guaranteed apprenticeship instead of college to a lot of young people, they would pick the apprenticeship.


  • #80
    Backstreet Moyes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 9,822 ✭✭✭Backstreet Moyes


    One thing i do think that should be brought in is a track of attendance. If people are going picking up grants and not bothering with lectures they should be cut off.


  • #81
    sleepytrees
    Closed Accounts Posts: 348 ✭✭sleepytrees


    I think it's better to encourage people to go straight to college instead of straight on the dole after school.


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  • #82
    Turtwig
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    Nuts102 wrote: »
    One thing i do think that should be brought in is a track of attendance. If people are going picking up grants and not bothering with lectures they should be cut off.

    Why?

    Lectures are often a waste of time. Forcing to people to attend stupid classes is well stupid.

    Maybe if they're not bothering with coursework?


  • #83
    Galwayguy35
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,184 ✭✭✭✭Galwayguy35


    Wouldn't a first step be to make those who do drop out pay back what they have received in grants?


  • #84
    old hippy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,441 ✭✭✭old hippy


    sleepytrees wrote: »
    I think it's better to encourage people to go straight to college instead of straight on the dole after school.

    Free education for all.


  • #85
    Galwayguy35
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,184 ✭✭✭✭Galwayguy35


    old hippy wrote: »
    Free education for all.

    Major shocker that you would come out with something like that...

    So you agree that Enda Kennys kids and the kids of the bosses of the 3 biggest banks are entitled to free fees?


  • #86
    RoboRat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,558 ✭✭✭RoboRat


    Personally think that fees should be paid BUT if the student completes their course, they should get additional tax back over 5 - 10 years to cover the cost of their fees.

    This way, if you have a dosser who doesn't bother to go to college they have to pay, but if they're serious and get employment from it, there is some form of repayment. It may also keep them in the country so we can benefit from their education.

    Perhaps even look at a deferred student loan which is paid over 5 - 10 years by revenue on completion of the course. If they don't finish or if they don't work, they have to pay.


  • #87
    oppenheimer1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,733 ✭✭✭oppenheimer1


    The answer here I think is a regular loan to cover fees but rather than an income limit, repayment starts a fixed time after leaving college or graduating.

    Parents or a sponsor would have to provide a guarantee to ensure that emigrants don't escape their responsibilities.
    This system would cover the majority of students. Special arrangements could be put in place for those that cannot meet the guarantee requirements.


  • #88
    Henlars67
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,272 ✭✭✭Henlars67


    RoboRat wrote: »
    Personally think that fees should be paid BUT if the student completes their course, they should get additional tax back over 5 - 10 years to cover the cost of their fees.



    But how do they pay for their fees at the time that they are in college?


  • #89
    Sarky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 31,967 ✭✭✭✭Sarky


    Research brings a whole lot of money into the country, from EU funding to the myriad spinoff businesses set up to make use of some clever postgrad's work to patents on new technology or substances.

    It's about the only thing keeping me here. If education/academics gets more maligned in the next couple of years, I doubt I'll be sticking around when I could be contributing to a society that doesn't have weird hangups about education.


  • #90
    LimerickLad92
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 341 ✭✭LimerickLad92


    Ill be honest, im a current student.

    I get my grant and it covers my fee's, the grand gives me 2100 euro a year, which goes into food, accommodation etc so although i come from a very poor background, my family still supports me also.

    But I dont feel like I owe this country anything, my parents paid tax and worked hard there whole lives.

    For sure I'm emmigrating in 12 months. Guaranteed.


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  • #91
    Balmed Out
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,710 ✭✭✭Balmed Out


    There should only be fees for courses where the uptake is greater than what we expect the economy to need. If we need 1k of construction studies graduates then top 1k get free fees, if we need two celtic civ students the top 2 applicants get free fees etc. I think universities tend to profiteer by churning out graduates in some courses.


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