Students: Should they get free fees and do they benefit society?

steddyeddy

I'm sorry about the ars-y thread title. I'm just starting a thread on this because a poster on another thread brought up an interesting point. The poster maintained students are funded by the taxpayer and "bleeding the country white". It's true to say that there are ever increasing numbers going into education and it is going to cost the taxpayer massively. Are free fees a good idea, sustainable or fit for purpose ? As far as I know they were introduced to widen the participation rate amongst students from less well off families.

The poster also maintained society doesn't get a great return from students and that PhDs are just career students. So are we getting a good return for our money and are PhDs post docs wasters?

In my opinion some members of society can afford fees and the money would be better spent on secondary level education. I certainly don't think all PhDs are wasters and on the large I think they do benefit society.

Capt'n Midnight

yawn

option a - it would cost more to have them on the dole

option b - we should actually be investing the money in primary

Nib

Free fees? Haha

Get a part time job and pay your own fucking way.

steddyeddy

Nib wrote: »

Free fees? Haha

Get a part time job and pay your own fucking way.

I'm sort of inclined to agree. Some students who never worked lack work ethic.

srsly78

PhD students get used as slave labour in unis op.

Shakespeare's Sister

srsly78 wrote: »

PhD students get used as slave labour in unis op.

Not really when it's their choice and they know the drill.

Amirani

Nib wrote: »

Free fees? Haha

Get a part time job and pay your own fucking way.

It's unlikely that most students would be able to pay full-fees (up to 10k or so) as well as rent and bills out of the income from a part time job. Could perhaps barely cover the fees if working 20 hours per week for the full year.

srsly78

Magaggie wrote: »

Not really when it's their choice and they know the drill.

Yes really. Even more hilariously, post-docs also get used as cheap labour

steddyeddy

Yea I'm a PhD and half the little jobs I have to do involve making up new chemicals to save money for the lecturer instead of him ordering them in.

MouseTail

Free fees did not work as intended, they did not serve to increase participation from those from disadvantaged backgrounds, and has led to a funding starved third level, with a plethora of micky mouse courses and a high drop out rate. I am in favour of introducing a Government backed loan system whereby loans are repaid once salary reaches a certain level at a fair interest %.

riffmongous

MouseTail wrote: »

Free fees did not work as intended, they did not serve to increase participation from those from disadvantaged backgrounds, and has led to a funding starved third level, with a plethora of micky mouse courses and a high drop out rate. I am in favour of introducing a Government backed loan system whereby loans are repaid once salary reaches a certain level at a fair interest %.

I'd be someone who actually did benefit from free fees and would never have been able to go uni without grant assistance, but I'd actually almost be in favour of this system.. although it would be better of course if there were actually jobs available for students in Ireland once they finish and they can pay it back through their higher level of tax over their lifetime.

steddyeddy

MouseTail wrote: »

Free fees did not work as intended, they did not serve to increase participation from those from disadvantaged backgrounds, and has led to a funding starved third level, with a plethora of micky mouse courses and a high drop out rate. I am in favour of introducing a Government backed loan system whereby loans are repaid once salary reaches a certain level at a fair interest %.

Well I can't think of anything wrong with this system. It puts everyone on equal footing.

Amirani

steddyeddy wrote: »

Well I can't think of anything wrong with this system. It puts everyone on equal footing.

Main issue is that emigrants get away with free fees. Encourages a brain drain.

Annasopra

Yes and yes

steddyeddy

Diego Simeone wrote: »

Main issue is that emigrants get away with free fees. Encourages a brain drain.

Well we'll always have a brain drain in this country. We only have so many posts that need to be filled in mentally demanding jobs.

FizzleSticks

This post has been deleted.

BRB

If we don't have free fees we'd have significantly less graduates available in the workforce. Most of my friends in uni are only there because of free fees and still they struggle.

I benefit from free fees, grant and can barely afford books for my modules. I actually had to cut my losses and attempt to use the 1 book in te library fr my course along with 50-80 students.

Free fees are needed. Yes not everyone will benefit the state but a good % would. The lack of jobs out there for certain graduates is also a reason they opt to stay in this education system longer in order to increase their chances of getting a job when they leave. This probably has a negative effect short term but long term it would benefit.

diveout

I think if you are getting free or subsidized education from the state to go to medical school and become a doctor, there should be a contract where you are obliged to stay in the country and work. Otherwise you are just paying for educated people to emigrate.

rozeboosje

Here's an idea: fees are payed for, and the student incurs a debt for that amount. The debt, however, is offset by a tax break for the first 10 years after your study while you're employed in the State. So if you stay in Ireland and put your education to use HERE, you effectively got free fees. If you decide to [bleep] off abroad, you owe the money.

LETHAL LADY

Do grants for your second year in college take into account the results achieved in your first year and so on?

MouseTail

It doesn't exist yet for a couple of reasons
a) it would require quite a lot of up front investment to set up the loan system.
b) it would be a brave Minister for Finance who risked all those middle class votes.

As for the brain drain argument, there have been studies done in countries with a similar demographic and history of migration and it doesn't hold up, a student loan system does not correlate with increased emigration.

steddyeddy

rozeboosje wrote: »

Here's an idea: fees are payed for, and the student incurs a debt for that amount. The debt, however, is offset by a tax break for the first 10 years after your study while you're employed in the State. So if you stay in Ireland and put your education to use HERE, you effectively got free fees. If you decide to [bleep] off abroad, you owe the money.

That's really smart actually.

Amirani

diveout wrote: »

I think if you are getting free or subsidized education from the state to go to medical school and become a doctor, there should be a contract where you are obliged to stay in the country and work. Otherwise you are just paying for educated people to emigrate.

That would be against EU law.

Amirani

LETHAL LADY wrote: »

Do grants for your second year in college take into account the results achieved in your first year and so on?

No, only whether you passed or failed.

shruikan2553

The only reason I got into college was free fees and in a year or 2 after college I will be in the 52% tax bracket. Otherwise I would be on the dole.

Im not against the idea of a loan system but the problem is it would make emigration even more attractive.

LETHAL LADY wrote: »

Do grants for your second year in college take into account the results achieved in your first year and so on?

Nope, the person who gets 40% gets the same as the person with 85%, its all just based on income.

rozeboosje

MouseTail wrote: »

A student loan system does not correlate with increased emigration.

There was a student loan system when I went to University in Holland. But you owed the money no matter what, and when I emigrated the debt followed me abroad.

steddyeddy

MouseTail wrote: »

It doesn't exist yet for a couple of reasons
a) it would require quite a lot of up front investment to set up the loan system.
b) it would be a brave Minister for Finance who risked all those middle class votes.

As for the brain drain argument, there have been studies done in countries with a similar demographic and history of migration and it doesn't hold up, a student loan system does not correlate with increased emigration.

Why would the middle class be against it?

rozeboosje

steddyeddy wrote: »

That's really smart actually.

Not sure how practical the idea is, but maybe worth thinking through.... thanks :-)

MouseTail

steddyeddy wrote: »

Why would the middle class be against it?

Because they benefit most from free fees.

riffmongous

diveout wrote: »

I think if you are getting free or subsidized education from the state to go to medical school and become a doctor, there should be a contract where you are obliged to stay in the country and work. Otherwise you are just paying for educated people to emigrate.

There is a problem in Austria at the moment with large amounts of German students who don't get in to medicine courses in Germany coming here to study as their are no prerequisite grades required in Austria, education is open for everyone as a right. It's only after you start the course that you take 'entrance exams'. The problem is of though the number of study places doesn't increase that much and will the German students remain in Austria after they graduate? Doubtful, but it would be illegal to favour Austrian students for the limited number of places.

CSSE09

Considering how low the higher rate of tax kicks in and 52% of your wage is gone I wouldn't be in favour of a grad tax, by all means limit the number of places on the mickey mouse courses or reduce their subsidy but certain courses should remain subsidised.

_Redzer_

Why not being in free fees but not for repeat years. As far as I'm aware that's how SUSI works in regards to tuition fees.

At least then you can't just ride along in a college course for the sake of it, and it gives everybody access to a degree, so long as they're willing to work for it.

yer man!

I'd really like to see people matched to their course a little better, I know when I was 17 and applying to the CAO I had no idea what I wanted to do so I picked science, I'm in the industry a few years and not really liking it at all. I'm now looking at going back to college and paying my own way completely (no other option) or doing an apprenticeship in some areas if identified that I'd love to work in. College isn't for everyone and I know of countless people are are in course just for the sake of it. So a better entrance system definitely needs to be introduced.

LETHAL LADY

Ok then, would it be wrong to suggest that those achieving the highest grades in first year should be entitled to greater assistance in their second year and so on. This imo may incentivize students.

steddyeddy

LETHAL LADY wrote: »

Ok then, would it be wrong to suggest that those achieving the highest grades in first year should be entitled to greater assistance in their second year and so on. This imo may incentivise students.

That already exists in some universities.

srsly78

Trinity already does something like that with the "schols".

LETHAL LADY

steddyeddy wrote: »

That already exists in some universities.

I meant across the board.

shruikan2553

LETHAL LADY wrote: »

Ok then, would it be wrong to suggest that those achieving the highest grades in first year should be entitled to greater assistance in their second year and so on. This imo may incentivize students.

I would agree with you but Im slightly biased. Many gives awards for first class honours, in NUIG its 250 euro. In trinity you do extra exams and get a ****load

Stheno

I'm self funding a masters while working full time in a fairly demanding job.

I think there should be a balance.

Access to third level education should be based on ability with funding available to those unable to afford it.

Beyond primary degrees, there should be no state support which is almost the case.

IrishEyes19

free fees? that's hillarious, the majority didn't and dont get free fees and actually work during their course to pay for it.

srsly78

The majority do get fee fees, they only pay a small registration charge. Non EU students have to pay the full whack which can be 15 grand or more.

riffmongous

LETHAL LADY wrote: »

Ok then, would it be wrong to suggest that those achieving the highest grades in first year should be entitled to greater assistance in their second year and so on. This imo may incentivize students.

It might disadvantage students who haven't studied the subject at leaving cert level I guess, just from my own experience getting a A grade in first year physics requires only a basic amount of practice for someone who did physics for LC, while someone who is taking it up for the first time as part of general science degree will have to do a lot of work to get close to the same grades, it's only by about 2summer/3rd year that you wont notice the difference between the groups anymore.

Digital Society

Very very few get free fees. Usually pay at least 2k a year. Its not as widespread as people make out.

srsly78

riffmongous wrote: »

It might disadvantage students who haven't studied the subject at leaving cert level I guess, just from my own experience getting a A grade in first year physics requires only a basic amount of practice for someone who did physics for LC, while someone who is taking it up for the first time as part of general science degree will have to do a lot of work to get close to the same grades, it's only by about 2summer/3rd year that you wont notice the difference between the groups anymore.

The more serious courses in some unis have basic entry requirements like B in higher level maths and physics etc, in addition to the usual points requirement.

thelad95

What's worrying is that we live in a system where creativity and ingenuity amongst young people is discouraged and instead they have to engage in a stupid cram-fest known as the Leaving Cert, do a course they may or may not want to do and often work some sh*tty part-time job to fund it, often all to keep Mammy happy. Students who fit this description often pack it in before sitting their Christmas exams and that folks is a waste of tax-payers money.

It is right to fund students who genuinely want to go through college and contribute positively in the future, either to Ireland's economy or the global economy but college doesn't suit everyone and these young people need to stop being pushed towards third level.

Shakespeare's Sister

Free fees no, multi-layered means testing yes.

riffmongous

srsly78 wrote: »

The more serious courses in some unis have basic entry requirements like B in higher level maths and physics etc, in addition to the usual points requirement.

Yeah like theoretical physics and so, but the majority of students will go into general science and get to pick from maths, chem, biology, physics etc.

FizzleSticks

This post has been deleted.

Manc Red

I would prefer if students in receipt of a government grant/free fees were made more aware about the course they choose to try to reduce the chance of them dropping out.

I'm not sure on this but judging from what I've read it's such a huge waste of time and money if they decide to drop out after the 1st or 2nd year.

By that I mean I would assume they would be on the dole again if they couldn't find a job and they would have to pay for some of the years of the new course themselves? I could be wrong on that but if that is the system, it doesn't make sense to me.

I'm of the opinion that 3rd level education is a privilege and not a right. There are certain things which have to be worked for. I'm hoping to save enough to go to college by the age of 24 (hopefully by 23). Of course it means cutting back on a lot of expenses and activities that people my age normally get up to. It has also given me time to think about what I really want to do instead of rushing into college at 17-18-19.

Should someone who has been handed government money have the same opportunities that I do? I don't think so and I don't expect to get anything in return for not getting free fee/grant money.

steddyeddy

Manc Red wrote: »

I would prefer if students in receipt of a government grant/free fees were made more aware about the course they choose to try to reduce the chance of them dropping out.

I'm not sure on this but judging from what I've read it's such a huge waste of time and money if they decide to drop out after the 1st or 2nd year.

By that I mean I would assume they would be on the dole again if they couldn't find a job and they would have to pay for some of the years of the new course themselves? I could be wrong on that but if that is the system, it doesn't make sense to me.

I'm of the opinion that 3rd level education is a privilege and not a right. There are certain things which have to be worked for. I'm hoping to save enough to go to college by the age of 24 (hopefully by 23). Of course it means cutting back on a lot of expenses and activities that people my age normally get up to. It has also given me time to think about what I really want to do instead of rushing into college at 17-18-19.

Should someone who has been handed government money have the same opportunities that I do? I don't think so and I don't expect to get anything in return for not getting free fee/grant money.

Science has one of the highest drop out rates and the leaving cert simply doesnt prepare people for it.

steddyeddy

thelad95 wrote: »

What's worrying is that we live in a system where creativity and ingenuity amongst young people is discouraged and instead they have to engage in a stupid cram-fest known as the Leaving Cert, do a course they may or may not want to do and often work some sh*tty part-time job to fund it, often all to keep Mammy happy. Students who fit this description often pack it in before sitting their Christmas exams and that folks is a waste of tax-payers money.

It is right to fund students who genuinely want to go through college and contribute positively in the future, either to Ireland's economy or the global economy but college doesn't suit everyone and these young people need to stop being pushed towards third level.

The leaving cert is a load of dribble. I have teaching responsibility in science third level and the 600 points pupils do not make the best scientists by a long shot. The most creative do by a country mile.