Minister for 'diaspora'- what Irish behaviour!

oppenheimer1 · 12-07-2014 04:05PM

Muise... wrote: »

Progressive side. Not that there's much choice for progress, but I wouldn't necessarily assume that emigrants are progressive just because they had to leave for economic reasons.

I would hope they become proper participants in the countries they settle in, rather than voting here at a remove.

Our current wave of emigrants aren't of the old-fashioned gone-for-good, American Wake variety either. I would say many of those young adults in Australia for example have half an eye on coming back one day.

More than half an eye. The vast majority are out there on working holiday visas and will have no choice but to come back.

darkpagandeath · 12-07-2014 04:06PM

Muise... wrote: »

When Mary Robinson was president, she opened up the office to people from all walks of life, and I remember she was particularly keen to include the Diaspora. (It was the first time I heard the word and I thought it sounded like either an illness or the medication for it.)

Rather than a shiny new ministry, it seems more appropriate to let the presidency and cultural organisations take care of keeping in touch with emigrants and letting them know they're not forgotten, and to let the embassies, consulates and Dept. of Foreign Affairs look after any practical assistance they might need from the state.

This is a really vague term imop were does it stop ? 3rd generation American ? how long till you are from the country your ancestors moved to ? I have German ancestors well part of the family long long time ago.. Can I consider myself German ?

Son Of A Vidic · 12-07-2014 04:12PM

mickydoomsux wrote: »

If you don't live here you shouldn't be able to vote.You won't have to live with the repercussions of your decision.

It'll lead to ill informed, misty-eyed "the auld home country" types getting elected because they can evoke the best imagery of the idealized Ireland that a lot of the "diaspora" have.

I spent a significant part of my life overseas and I can only speak from my own experience. But the vast majority of Irish I met while travelling abroad, were anything but misty eyed. I like many, had to pursue my career & training overseas and had no choice but to leave Ireland. Who you know, not what you know will never disappear in this little country. Not being part of that clique forced many to emigrate. High time Irish citizens overseas, were given the right to punish those corrupt, incompetent political wasters, who allow such a system to prevail. And that's the reason the current incumbent gobshytes, will never allow it to happen.

EuropeanSon · 12-07-2014 04:14PM

conorhal wrote: »

Sure Shatter handed 60,000 of them a passport over the last few years in the full knowledge that most of them were chancers and there was barely a peep about it.

What makes someone who has been working here legally for years and is now entitled to citizeship a chancer?

Muise... · 12-07-2014 04:16PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

This is a really vague term imop were does it stop ? 3rd generation American ? how long till you are from the country your ancestors moved to ? I have German ancestors well part of the family long long time ago.. Can I consider myself German ?

The term is Greek, referring to the Hebrew exile way back in the day.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=diaspora

I think it was mostly used by Jewish people before we got hold of it, and as their faith is matrilinear and cultural, they could be Jewish and whatever nationality they were born into, and this would be passed down for generations. Other hyphenated Americans can't keep their lineage so tidy unless they only marry into their own old countries. German-Irish - shure why not? Might be worth a few bob.

oppenheimer1 · 12-07-2014 04:19PM

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

I spent a significant part of my life overseas and I can only speak from my own experience. But the vast majority of Irish I met while travelling abroad, were anything but misty eyed. I like many, had to pursue my career & training overseas and had no choice but to leave Ireland. Who you know, not what you know will never disappear in this little country. Not being part of that clique forced many to emigrate. High time Irish citizens overseas, were given the right to punish those corrupt, incompetent political wasters, who allow such a system to prevail. And that's the reason the current incumbent gobshytes, will never allow it to happen.

Utter nonsense. If those that didn't live here were given the vote it would lead to extremists getting a far larger say in how the country is run than they deserve. And we can speak from experience, you just have to look at how much money Sinn Fein have raised for their campaign in the past in the USA.

There are a lot of conservative Christians with an entitlement to Irish citizenship in the USA, should they be allowed to vote??? Would that fit with the narrative here?

darkpagandeath · 12-07-2014 04:24PM

Muise... wrote: »

The term is Greek, referring to the Hebrew exile way back in the day.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=diaspora

I think it was mostly used by Jewish people before we got hold of it, and as their faith is matrilinear and cultural, they could be Jewish and whatever nationality they were born into, and this would be passed down for generations. Other hyphenated Americans can't keep their lineage so tidy unless they only marry into their own old countries. German-Irish - shure why not? Might be worth a few bob.

So do you think it's more of an American thing wanting to claim being from one of the old countries. Even though the USA is older than some European states.

mickydoomsux · 12-07-2014 04:31PM

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

I spent a significant part of my life overseas and I can only speak from my own experience. But the vast majority of Irish I met while travelling abroad, were anything but misty eyed. I like many, had to pursue my career & training overseas and had no choice but to leave Ireland. Who you know, not what you know will never disappear in this little country. Not being part of that clique forced many to emigrate. High time Irish citizens overseas, were given the right to punish those corrupt, incompetent political wasters, who allow such a system to prevail. And that's the reason the current incumbent gobshytes, will never allow it to happen.

Utter nonsense. Because their career was a dead end in this country you think that people who don't live here should be able to elect people to make the country "good enough" for them to contemplate moving home?

Elections are for the people who live in a country to decide who they want to rule them. They are not for people who left, for whatever reasons, to try to change the place so that they might come back.

DoesNotCompute · 12-07-2014 04:32PM

Western Pomise wrote: »

I think we have reached a new political low in the country with the creation of a 'Minister for the Diaspora' to give Jimmy Deenihan a post in Govt.Enda Kenny has just equalled anything the bold Bertie ever did for taking a hand at the intelligence levels of Irish people.

Engagement with the diaspora is in the programme for government since 2011. Foreign affairs have been engaging with diaspora since Gilmore was appointed minister. This is old news.

Muise... · 12-07-2014 04:35PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

So do you think it's more of an American thing wanting to claim being from one of the old countries. Even though the USA is older than some European states.

I suppose so. Even though most Americans today must be a mixture of many, many backgrounds. I think past the first generation the identification is purely cultural and doesn't come with homesickness or culture-shock as it might for those fresh off the boat, i.e the Diaspora themselves.

snubbleste · 12-07-2014 04:35PM

Muise... wrote: »

France still has colonies and protectorates and a far smaller proportion of its natives living abroad though - it needs such facilities and can easily provide them without messing up domestic affairs. (Hopefully all their fascists are contained in the motherland...)

What colonies?

Nonsense thread is nonsense

darkpagandeath · 12-07-2014 04:40PM

Muise... wrote: »

I suppose so. Even though most Americans today must be a mixture of many, many backgrounds. I think past the first generation the identification is purely cultural and doesn't come with homesickness or culture-shock as it might for those fresh off the boat, i.e the Diaspora themselves.

This is the thing, You could classify up to 80 million who claim to be Irish or have Irish descendants. Is there an actual way of counting it as it's not only done on citizenship (TBH that's the way it should be counted or via passport).

Muise... · 12-07-2014 04:43PM

snubbleste wrote: »

What colonies?

Nonsense thread is nonsense

Oops, no longer designated colonies. That should have read Départements et Territoires d'outre-mer, or Overseas Departments and Territories. Mostly islands in the Carribean, the Indian and Pacific oceans. Combined population 2,691,000 in 2013 according to wikipedia.

The point was that most French emigrants are likely to go to either Francophone countries or their overseas territories, which already have arrangements for voting.

Administering ballots to our (much larger number per capita) emigrants would be like herding cats.

Muise... · 12-07-2014 04:48PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

This is the thing, You could classify up to 80 million who claim to be Irish or have Irish descendants. Is there an actual way of counting it as it's not only done on citizenship (TBH that's the way it should be counted or via passport).

AFAIK, France and the USA, which both allow emigrant voting, only do so for their citizens who were born in France/USA, not subsequent generations. Both countries also count anyone born in their territories as automatic citizens too, a Napoleonic rule that we had too until the referendum of 2004.

darkpagandeath · 12-07-2014 04:54PM

Muise... wrote: »

AFAIK, France and the USA, which both allow emigrant voting, only do so for their citizens who were born in France/USA, not subsequent generations. Both countries also count anyone born in their territories as automatic citizens too, a Napoleonic rule that we had too until the referendum of 2004.

So absolutely no were near 80 million about 10-15 and it think that would be stretching it.

Muise... · 12-07-2014 05:05PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

So absolutely no were near 80 million about 10-15 and it think that would be stretching it.

Diaspora seems to encompass Irish citizens born here and now living abroad, their children, and people with many generations' distance from us.

Perhaps they chose that romantic title deliberately so the Minister can go and do the rounds on St. Patrick's Day rather than concentrate on the situation for first-time emigrants.

Pumpkinseeds · 12-07-2014 05:13PM

I think it's a farce. I don't think many of the diaspora would bother to vote while living abroad. The government is cutting budgets for in the Health Service where money is desperately needed. We don't need to be wasting money on trivialities like votes or anything else for the diaspora.

Mint Aero · 12-07-2014 05:25PM

If each of the 100 or so million people that supposedly comprise this Diaspora pay 100 a month for the privilege then ok.

mickydoomsux · 12-07-2014 05:37PM

Pumpkinseeds wrote: »

I think it's a farce. I don't think many of the diaspora would bother to vote while living abroad. The government is cutting budgets for in the Health Service where money is desperately needed. We don't need to be wasting money on trivialities like votes or anything else for the diaspora.

The sad thing is that they probably would have a higher percentage voting than people living here. A lot of people I know who moved away showed more of an interest in how the country was run after they left it.

Can you imagine it? If you let them vote you'd have people who no longer pay tax here deciding how public money should be spent or voting in referenda to change the laws in a jurisdiction they don't inhabit any more.

The "diaspora" shouldn't be counted as any kind of a group that has any influence on how things are once they leave.

losthorizon · 12-07-2014 06:11PM

Western Pomise wrote: »

I think we have reached a new political low in the country with the creation of a 'Minister for the Diaspora' to give Jimmy Deenihan a post in Govt.Enda Kenny has just equalled anything the bold Bertie ever did for taking a hand at the intelligence levels of Irish people.

http://www.mindiaspora.am/en/index

umop.episdn · 12-07-2014 06:22PM

The diaspora won't get a vote, they will get lipservice & nothing more. But, their mammies & daddies will believe that good old uncle Enda is listening to their pleas & he will garner quite a few votes from this that would otherwise have been lost

Minister for 'diaspora'- what Irish behaviour!

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