Minister for 'diaspora'- what Irish behaviour!

Western Pomise

I think we have reached a new political low in the country with the creation of a 'Minister for the Diaspora' to give Jimmy Deenihan a post in Govt.Enda Kenny has just equalled anything the bold Bertie ever did for taking a hand at the intelligence levels of Irish people.

Muise...

I did a double take at that yesterday too. Emigrants can't vote here, but they get a minister?

Colinf1212

Great thread. One to tell the grandkids.

ballsymchugh

not really.

many countries allow their expats to participate in national elections, including USA. the french government have a similar position to deal with the amount of french people based in the UK. there are regular calls for the irish diaspora to have a say in the future of the country. this is probably a step in that direction.

so no, not really irish behaviour.

solomafioso

Dolla dolla bill y'all.

bonerjams03

It's probably more welcome than anything, and hopefully can be a push towards voting.

Look at France - they've very elaborate infrastructure in place to represent their citizens abroad.

token101

Makes a lot of sense to me given the history of Irish emigration. We've got lots of people leaving and eventually they'll be looking to return so it would be good to have a functional resettlement system of some sort.

osarusan

IRcolm wrote: »

It's probably more welcome than anything, and hopefully can be a push towards voting.

It would depend on who was eligible to vote, but I'm not sure that voting rights for the diaspora would be a good thing at all.

Muise...

IRcolm wrote: »

It's probably more welcome than anything, and hopefully can be a push towards voting.

Look at France - they've very elaborate infrastructure in place to represent their citizens abroad.

France still has colonies and protectorates and a far smaller proportion of its natives living abroad though - it needs such facilities and can easily provide them without messing up domestic affairs. (Hopefully all their fascists are contained in the motherland...)

I think you should vote where you live. Minister for Diaspora is a waste of govt. time when we have plenty of NGOs for that kind of need.

Donkey Oaty

His portfolio presumably includes the undocumented Irish in American and anything to do with Terry Wogan.

bonerjams03

osarusan wrote: »

It would depend on who was eligible to vote, but I'm not sure that voting rights for the diaspora would be a good thing at all.

Why not?

What flaw is there in - again for example's sake - France's allowing citizens abroad to vote?

If the hoards of young, educated, liberal voters who had to leave throughout the past century had have been allowed to vote maybe more progressive governments would have been elected. It could have helped stem the flow of the brain drain.

I'd welcome it anyway.

Muise...

IRcolm wrote: »

Why not?

What flaw is there in - again for example's sake - France's allowing citizens abroad to vote?

If the hoards of young, educated, liberal voters who had to leave throughout the past century had have been allowed to vote maybe more progressive governments would have been elected. It could have helped stem the flow of the brain drain.

I'd welcome it anyway.

I think it's easier to stick to exclusively domestic voting, especially if you extend the franchise purely in the hope your side will win - that's likely to blow up in your face.

bonerjams03

Muise... wrote: »

France still has colonies and protectorates and a far smaller proportion of its natives living abroad though - it needs such facilities and can easily provide them without messing up domestic affairs. (Hopefully all their fascists are contained in the motherland...)

I think you should vote where you live. Minister for Diaspora is a waste of govt. time when we have plenty of NGOs for that kind of need.

Doesn't have to be to the same proportion as current constituencies - token representation such as 1 TD/Senator, possibly even non voting member of the house would be no harm.

I don't see the problem in their being at least some representation, especially considering many emigrants leave out of economic reasons.

French colonies are now incorporated into formal départments liks Guadeloupe - this is a separate issue of voting rights for blocs of native citizens living abroad.

bonerjams03

Muise... wrote: »

I think it's easier to stick to exclusively domestic voting, especially if you extend the franchise purely in the hope your side will win - that's likely to blow up in your face.

What side?

But by all means, let's stick to what is logistically easier.

My name is URL

token101 wrote: »

Makes a lot of sense to me given the history of Irish emigration. We've got lots of people leaving and eventually they'll be looking to return so it would be good to have a functional resettlement system of some sort.

It's not as if people who choose to leave are refugees.. there doesn't need to be any 'resettlement system', whatever that even means. Irish citizens that leave can easily return.. it's never been a problem before.

And this has nothing to do with allowing emigrants to vote.. they've ruled that out numerous times already, claiming that people abroad don't need to vote since they have Facebook.. seriously

http://www.irishpost.co.uk/news/emigrants-dont-need-dail-votes-theyve-got-facebook-irish-minister

It was a bizarre decision to create a new government department for such a thing while at the same time placing the Defense portfolio in the hands of the Agriculture minister.

Devine Wind_up 55

token101 wrote: »

Makes a lot of sense to me given the history of Irish emigration. We've got lots of people leaving and eventually they'll be looking to return so it would be good to have a functional resettlement system of some sort.

I'd be surprised if anything meaningful or as useful as that ever came out of it

Muise...

IRcolm wrote: »

What side?

But by all means, let's stick to what is logistically easier.

Progressive side. Not that there's much choice for progress, but I wouldn't necessarily assume that emigrants are progressive just because they had to leave for economic reasons.

I would hope they become proper participants in the countries they settle in, rather than voting here at a remove.

Our current wave of emigrants aren't of the old-fashioned gone-for-good, American Wake variety either. I would say many of those young adults in Australia for example have half an eye on coming back one day.

darkpagandeath

Makes a lot of sense if you want a ministers wage and an extra pension.

expectationlost

minister of state or junior minister

MRnotlob606

I can only see this as a positive step, hopefully he can try broker a deal about the 50,000 undocumented Irish in the US

darkpagandeath

MRnotlob606 wrote: »

I can only see this as a positive step, hopefully he can try broker a deal about the 50,000 undocumented Irish in the US

Would you let 50 thousand foreigners here broker a deal too ?

sabat

MRnotlob606 wrote: »

I can only see this as a positive step, hopefully he can try broker a deal about the 50,000 undocumented Irish in the US

I'm quite sure they're 'documented' somewhere within the US immigration service's computers; the word you're looking for is illegal.

Muise...

MRnotlob606 wrote: »

I can only see this as a positive step, hopefully he can try broker a deal about the 50,000 undocumented Irish in the US

I certainly hope he doesn't. That kind of but-I'm-a-special-case expectation that rules apply to anyone but us is embarrassing enough here without making a holy diplomatic show of ourselves abroad too.

conorhal

MRnotlob606 wrote: »

I can only see this as a positive step, hopefully he can try broker a deal about the 50,000 undocumented Irish in the US

They're illegals, I don't know where we came up with gibberish like 'undocumented', implying some careless bureaucrat just forgot to stamp their visa or something.

I think this just smacks of another jobs for the boys move, under Bertie the number of junior and super junior ministers exploded as an attempt was made to give a job to everybody in the audience. Of course the 'new politics' to be practiced by our current government was going do so away with this, but the number of seats at the table seems to be creeping back up again.

It's always been my argument that emigrants are too large a constituency to be permitted a vote in a country that they have no material interest in any more and don't have to deal with the consequences of the electoral decisions made.

riffmongous

What would be useful is a survey on how many emmigrants return back to Ireland and in what timeframe, people who are only gone briefly should be represented imo

bonerjams03

MRnotlob606 wrote: »

I can only see this as a positive step, hopefully he can try broker a deal about the 50,000 undocumented Irish in the US

If someone were to start a thread saying 50,000 people from outside the EU were here illegally should get visas and citizenship, I don't think it would go down to well.

conorhal

IRcolm wrote: »

If someone were to start a thread saying 50,000 people from outside the EU were here illegally should get visas and citizenship, I don't think it would go down to well.

Sure Shatter handed 60,000 of them a passport over the last few years in the full knowledge that most of them were chancers and there was barely a peep about it.

osarusan

IRcolm wrote: »

Why not?

Irish citizenship can be carried down through generations basically forever, as long as people are careful about it.

But they have might have no idea what Ireland is like, no intention ever to move there or even know more about the place.

They should not be able to vote, in my opinion.

As I said, it depends on who's eligible, and what they're eligible to vote for.

Your own suggestion that they have a token vote is hardly a ringing endorsement of them, is it? They can vote, but only in such a way that it means next to nothing.

mickydoomsux

If you don't live here you shouldn't be able to vote.You won't have to live with the repercussions of your decision.

It'll lead to ill informed, misty-eyed "the auld home country" types getting elected because they can evoke the best imagery of the idealized Ireland that a lot of the "diaspora" have.

Muise...

When Mary Robinson was president, she opened up the office to people from all walks of life, and I remember she was particularly keen to include the Diaspora. (It was the first time I heard the word and I thought it sounded like either an illness or the medication for it.)

Rather than a shiny new ministry, it seems more appropriate to let the presidency and cultural organisations take care of keeping in touch with emigrants and letting them know they're not forgotten, and to let the embassies, consulates and Dept. of Foreign Affairs look after any practical assistance they might need from the state.

oppenheimer1

IRcolm wrote: »

It's probably more welcome than anything, and hopefully can be a push towards voting.

Look at France - they've very elaborate infrastructure in place to represent their citizens abroad.

Why? Why should someone who doesn't live here and have to suffer the consequences of their choices have a say in how our country is run?


They'll get a vote if they come back.

oppenheimer1

Muise... wrote: »

Progressive side. Not that there's much choice for progress, but I wouldn't necessarily assume that emigrants are progressive just because they had to leave for economic reasons.

I would hope they become proper participants in the countries they settle in, rather than voting here at a remove.

Our current wave of emigrants aren't of the old-fashioned gone-for-good, American Wake variety either. I would say many of those young adults in Australia for example have half an eye on coming back one day.

More than half an eye. The vast majority are out there on working holiday visas and will have no choice but to come back.

darkpagandeath

Muise... wrote: »

When Mary Robinson was president, she opened up the office to people from all walks of life, and I remember she was particularly keen to include the Diaspora. (It was the first time I heard the word and I thought it sounded like either an illness or the medication for it.)

Rather than a shiny new ministry, it seems more appropriate to let the presidency and cultural organisations take care of keeping in touch with emigrants and letting them know they're not forgotten, and to let the embassies, consulates and Dept. of Foreign Affairs look after any practical assistance they might need from the state.

This is a really vague term imop were does it stop ? 3rd generation American ? how long till you are from the country your ancestors moved to ? I have German ancestors well part of the family long long time ago.. Can I consider myself German ?

Son Of A Vidic

mickydoomsux wrote: »

If you don't live here you shouldn't be able to vote.You won't have to live with the repercussions of your decision.

It'll lead to ill informed, misty-eyed "the auld home country" types getting elected because they can evoke the best imagery of the idealized Ireland that a lot of the "diaspora" have.

I spent a significant part of my life overseas and I can only speak from my own experience. But the vast majority of Irish I met while travelling abroad, were anything but misty eyed. I like many, had to pursue my career & training overseas and had no choice but to leave Ireland. Who you know, not what you know will never disappear in this little country. Not being part of that clique forced many to emigrate. High time Irish citizens overseas, were given the right to punish those corrupt, incompetent political wasters, who allow such a system to prevail. And that's the reason the current incumbent gobshytes, will never allow it to happen.

EuropeanSon

conorhal wrote: »

Sure Shatter handed 60,000 of them a passport over the last few years in the full knowledge that most of them were chancers and there was barely a peep about it.

What makes someone who has been working here legally for years and is now entitled to citizeship a chancer?

Muise...

darkpagandeath wrote: »

This is a really vague term imop were does it stop ? 3rd generation American ? how long till you are from the country your ancestors moved to ? I have German ancestors well part of the family long long time ago.. Can I consider myself German ?

The term is Greek, referring to the Hebrew exile way back in the day.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=diaspora

I think it was mostly used by Jewish people before we got hold of it, and as their faith is matrilinear and cultural, they could be Jewish and whatever nationality they were born into, and this would be passed down for generations. Other hyphenated Americans can't keep their lineage so tidy unless they only marry into their own old countries. German-Irish - shure why not? Might be worth a few bob.

oppenheimer1

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

I spent a significant part of my life overseas and I can only speak from my own experience. But the vast majority of Irish I met while travelling abroad, were anything but misty eyed. I like many, had to pursue my career & training overseas and had no choice but to leave Ireland. Who you know, not what you know will never disappear in this little country. Not being part of that clique forced many to emigrate. High time Irish citizens overseas, were given the right to punish those corrupt, incompetent political wasters, who allow such a system to prevail. And that's the reason the current incumbent gobshytes, will never allow it to happen.

Utter nonsense. If those that didn't live here were given the vote it would lead to extremists getting a far larger say in how the country is run than they deserve. And we can speak from experience, you just have to look at how much money Sinn Fein have raised for their campaign in the past in the USA.


There are a lot of conservative Christians with an entitlement to Irish citizenship in the USA, should they be allowed to vote??? Would that fit with the narrative here?

darkpagandeath

Muise... wrote: »

The term is Greek, referring to the Hebrew exile way back in the day.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=diaspora

I think it was mostly used by Jewish people before we got hold of it, and as their faith is matrilinear and cultural, they could be Jewish and whatever nationality they were born into, and this would be passed down for generations. Other hyphenated Americans can't keep their lineage so tidy unless they only marry into their own old countries. German-Irish - shure why not? Might be worth a few bob.

So do you think it's more of an American thing wanting to claim being from one of the old countries. Even though the USA is older than some European states.

mickydoomsux

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

I spent a significant part of my life overseas and I can only speak from my own experience. But the vast majority of Irish I met while travelling abroad, were anything but misty eyed. I like many, had to pursue my career & training overseas and had no choice but to leave Ireland. Who you know, not what you know will never disappear in this little country. Not being part of that clique forced many to emigrate. High time Irish citizens overseas, were given the right to punish those corrupt, incompetent political wasters, who allow such a system to prevail. And that's the reason the current incumbent gobshytes, will never allow it to happen.

Utter nonsense. Because their career was a dead end in this country you think that people who don't live here should be able to elect people to make the country "good enough" for them to contemplate moving home?

Elections are for the people who live in a country to decide who they want to rule them. They are not for people who left, for whatever reasons, to try to change the place so that they might come back.

DoesNotCompute

Western Pomise wrote: »

I think we have reached a new political low in the country with the creation of a 'Minister for the Diaspora' to give Jimmy Deenihan a post in Govt.Enda Kenny has just equalled anything the bold Bertie ever did for taking a hand at the intelligence levels of Irish people.

Engagement with the diaspora is in the programme for government since 2011. Foreign affairs have been engaging with diaspora since Gilmore was appointed minister. This is old news.

Muise...

darkpagandeath wrote: »

So do you think it's more of an American thing wanting to claim being from one of the old countries. Even though the USA is older than some European states.

I suppose so. Even though most Americans today must be a mixture of many, many backgrounds. I think past the first generation the identification is purely cultural and doesn't come with homesickness or culture-shock as it might for those fresh off the boat, i.e the Diaspora themselves.

snubbleste

Muise... wrote: »

France still has colonies and protectorates and a far smaller proportion of its natives living abroad though - it needs such facilities and can easily provide them without messing up domestic affairs. (Hopefully all their fascists are contained in the motherland...)

What colonies?

Nonsense thread is nonsense

darkpagandeath

Muise... wrote: »

I suppose so. Even though most Americans today must be a mixture of many, many backgrounds. I think past the first generation the identification is purely cultural and doesn't come with homesickness or culture-shock as it might for those fresh off the boat, i.e the Diaspora themselves.

This is the thing, You could classify up to 80 million who claim to be Irish or have Irish descendants. Is there an actual way of counting it as it's not only done on citizenship (TBH that's the way it should be counted or via passport).

Muise...

snubbleste wrote: »

What colonies?

Nonsense thread is nonsense

Oops, no longer designated colonies. That should have read Départements et Territoires d'outre-mer, or Overseas Departments and Territories. Mostly islands in the Carribean, the Indian and Pacific oceans. Combined population 2,691,000 in 2013 according to wikipedia.

The point was that most French emigrants are likely to go to either Francophone countries or their overseas territories, which already have arrangements for voting.

Administering ballots to our (much larger number per capita) emigrants would be like herding cats.

Muise...

darkpagandeath wrote: »

This is the thing, You could classify up to 80 million who claim to be Irish or have Irish descendants. Is there an actual way of counting it as it's not only done on citizenship (TBH that's the way it should be counted or via passport).

AFAIK, France and the USA, which both allow emigrant voting, only do so for their citizens who were born in France/USA, not subsequent generations. Both countries also count anyone born in their territories as automatic citizens too, a Napoleonic rule that we had too until the referendum of 2004.

darkpagandeath

Muise... wrote: »

AFAIK, France and the USA, which both allow emigrant voting, only do so for their citizens who were born in France/USA, not subsequent generations. Both countries also count anyone born in their territories as automatic citizens too, a Napoleonic rule that we had too until the referendum of 2004.

So absolutely no were near 80 million about 10-15 and it think that would be stretching it.

Muise...

darkpagandeath wrote: »

So absolutely no were near 80 million about 10-15 and it think that would be stretching it.

Diaspora seems to encompass Irish citizens born here and now living abroad, their children, and people with many generations' distance from us.

Perhaps they chose that romantic title deliberately so the Minister can go and do the rounds on St. Patrick's Day rather than concentrate on the situation for first-time emigrants.

Pumpkinseeds

I think it's a farce. I don't think many of the diaspora would bother to vote while living abroad. The government is cutting budgets for in the Health Service where money is desperately needed. We don't need to be wasting money on trivialities like votes or anything else for the diaspora.

Mint Aero

If each of the 100 or so million people that supposedly comprise this Diaspora pay 100 a month for the privilege then ok.

mickydoomsux

Pumpkinseeds wrote: »

I think it's a farce. I don't think many of the diaspora would bother to vote while living abroad. The government is cutting budgets for in the Health Service where money is desperately needed. We don't need to be wasting money on trivialities like votes or anything else for the diaspora.

The sad thing is that they probably would have a higher percentage voting than people living here. A lot of people I know who moved away showed more of an interest in how the country was run after they left it.

Can you imagine it? If you let them vote you'd have people who no longer pay tax here deciding how public money should be spent or voting in referenda to change the laws in a jurisdiction they don't inhabit any more.

The "diaspora" shouldn't be counted as any kind of a group that has any influence on how things are once they leave.

losthorizon

Western Pomise wrote: »

I think we have reached a new political low in the country with the creation of a 'Minister for the Diaspora' to give Jimmy Deenihan a post in Govt.Enda Kenny has just equalled anything the bold Bertie ever did for taking a hand at the intelligence levels of Irish people.

http://www.mindiaspora.am/en/index