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Gay Cake Controversy!

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    #422
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    The message on the cake was a political one. It was a cake asking for support for gay marriage which is political. The bakers are perfectly entitled to turn away business if it goes against what they believe. They did not discriminate against a gay person, they merely refused to bake a cake which contained a political message which went against their beliefs.

    No that is incorrect - as clearly explained that is a civil rights issue. Their is no political element involved. The Bakery have already declared they declined on the basis of their religious beliefs on homosexuality.


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    #423
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 15,814 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    gozunda wrote: »
    By political I would understand a statement in support of some political organisation or individual - queue cake with image of Mr Paisley or Mr Adams.

    The campaign that the group is running is if it can be defined as anything is a civil rights issue and not political as the case of the swastika as promoted by so many on here.

    I have quoted what the Equality Commission specified and they Cleary state that "Six weeks later the Equality Commission for Northern Ireland wrote to Ashers warning the company that it had breached the 2006 Equality Act regulations on service provision on grounds of the customer’s sexual orientation

    They company made no statement apropos to declining on the basis of a 'political statement' - they said -
    “We felt it was at odds with our beliefs and in contradiction with what the Bible teaches,”

    There is clearly nothing political about the group or in any statement made by the Bakery - that maybe your interpretation but it ain't going to wash with was has already been stated by the bakery and the equality commission

    So a cake with a message about supporting gay marraige is not a political one. Good to know.

    The bakery did not refuse to bake the cake because of the sexual orientation of the customer but rather because of the message they wanted on it. If the bakery had told them "sorry we don't bake cakes for homosexuals" then this entire thing would be about something but that's not what happened.

    I wonder if it had been a bakery run by a Jewish or Muslim ethos would everyone be so quick to damn them?


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    #424
    Awkward Badger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,414 ✭✭✭Awkward Badger


    gozunda wrote: »
    By political I would understand a statement in support of some political organisation or individual - queue cake with image of Mr Paisley or Mr Adams.

    The campaign that the group is running is if it can be defined as anything is a civil rights issue and not political as the case of the swastika as promoted by so many on here.

    I have quoted what the Equality Commission specified and they Cleary state that "Six weeks later the Equality Commission for Northern Ireland wrote to Ashers warning the company that it had breached the 2006 Equality Act regulations on service provision on grounds of the customer’s sexual orientation

    They company made no statement apropos to declining on the basis of a 'political statement' - they said -
    “We felt it was at odds with our beliefs and in contradiction with what the Bible teaches,”

    There is clearly nothing political about the group or in any statement made by the Bakery - that maybe your interpretation but it ain't going to wash with was has already been stated by the bakery and the equality commission

    Its political. There's going to be a referendum to allow same sex marriage. People are entitled to support or oppose it. Opposing it is not in breach of discrimination laws. And the equality commission imo were wrong to conclude the customer was discriminated against based on his sexuality. Given it was what was on the cake and not the sexuality of the customer which resulted in them declining to make it. I think this will be shown very clearly and quite quickly if this incident goes to court which I don't think it will because I don't think the equality authority understood the full story when issuing its threats of legal action.


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    #425
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 15,814 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    gozunda wrote: »
    No that is incorrect - as clearly explained that is a civil rights issue. Their is no political element involved. The Bakery have already declared they declined on the basis of their religious beliefs on homosexuality.

    Gay marriage is a political issue and will be till the day it's legalised. To try and say that it is solely a civil rights one is wrong.


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    #426
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    DulchieLaois wrote: »
    LGBT are taking the bakery for discrimmination
    Do they think that they can bully people into doing something that they dont want to do ?
    Its seems that LGBT think they can do anything they want which I particularly dont like about them.
    We are all supposed to smile, think they are great and if we say anything against it, they bully with their B-S !!!!

    Simple Fact - Bakery doesnt want to do cake, accept it and find a bakery that does their business


    Wrong there I'm afraid - the Equality commission is taking the bakery to court on the basis they have contravened basic equality legislation. The law states that those providing services must not discriminate based on a number of criteria including sexual orientation, race, gender etc. so yes the bakery is obliged to provide services to all and not discriminate.


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    #427
    tfitzgerald
    Registered Users Posts: 2,285 ✭✭✭tfitzgerald


    I'm with the bakery on this one. If they don't want to bake the cake then they shouldn't have to it's the gay community acting the bully and everyone afraid to say because they will be classed as homophobic. I don't care what people do in their own homes.


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    #428
    floggg
    Registered Users Posts: 5,820 ✭✭✭floggg


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Gay marriage is a political issue and will be till the day it's legalised. To try and say that it is solely a civil rights one is wrong.

    Was slavery just a "political" issue?

    Political suggests a public policy matter on which there may be reasonable disagreement.

    Marriage equality isn't a "political issue" - it's a civil rights issue. It's a demand to be treated equally before the law. It's human rights.

    It cheapen it a bit to say it's just political - it's ignoring the fact that the present situation is discriminatory. It's ignoring the fact that we are entitled to equality as a citizen of the country, and that our rights should be seen as just another government policy that can be introduced or repealed on a whim.

    So, much like slavery and apartheid were human rights issues, not political ones, so too is this.


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    #429
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Gay marriage is a political issue and will be till the day it's legalised. To try and say that it is solely a civil rights one is wrong.

    So to clearly define what is defined as 'political' i quote the Merriam Webster's online dictionary

    Political

    1 a : of or relating to government, a government, or the conduct of government b : of, relating to, or concerned with the making as distinguished from the administration of governmental policy 2 : of, relating to, involving, or involved in politics and especially party politics 3 : organized in governmental terms <political units> 4 : involving or charged or concerned with acts against a government or a political system

    Advocacy for rights for equality based on gender, race, sexuality are not therefore 'political'. They are civil rights issues. Other examples would include the suffragette movement, the African American civil rights movement and others. You may not agree with them. But that is what they are.


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    #430
    Arbiter of Good Taste
    Registered Users Posts: 2,200 ✭✭✭Arbiter of Good Taste


    gozunda wrote: »
    Wrong again I'm afraid - the Equality commission is taking the bakery to court on the basis they have contravened basic equality legislation. The law states that those providing services must not discriminate based on a number of criteria including sexual orientation, race, gender etc. so yes the bakery is obliged to provide services to all and not discriminate.

    The bakery is not refusing to provide services to homosexuals, just to bake a particular cake. So it has absolutely nothing to do with their sexual orientation.

    It would be different if they asked for a run of the mill cake and the bakery refused to serve them because they were gay.


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    #431
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 15,814 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    floggg wrote: »
    Was slavery just a "political" issue?

    Political suggests a public policy matter on which there may be reasonable disagreement.

    Marriage equality isn't a "political issue" - it's a civil rights issue. It's a demand to be treated equally before the law. It's human rights.

    It cheapen it a bit to say it's just political - it's ignoring the fact that the present situation is discriminatory. It's ignoring the fact that we are entitled to equality as a citizen of the country, and that our rights should be seen as just another government policy that can be introduced or repealed on a whim.

    So, much like slavery and apartheid were human rights issues, not political ones, so too is this.

    If it's not a political issue why then is there a referendum on it? Why is it debated in parliament? Why do parties use itb to win votes?

    Something can be both a human rights issue and a political issue and this is one of them. The bakery should hopefully win this, they did not refuse the customer because of their sexual orientation but rather because of the message they wanted on the cake. It's as simple as that.


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    #432
    murra
    Registered Users Posts: 63 ✭✭murra


    I don't see the problem? It follows their religious beliefs end of story.


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    #433
    FunLover18
    Registered Users Posts: 6,793 ✭✭✭FunLover18


    floggg wrote: »
    Was slavery just a "political" issue?

    Political suggests a public policy matter on which there may be reasonable disagreement.

    Marriage equality isn't a "political issue" - it's a civil rights issue. It's a demand to be treated equally before the law. It's human rights.

    It cheapen it a bit to say it's just political - it's ignoring the fact that the present situation is discriminatory. It's ignoring the fact that we are entitled to equality as a citizen of the country, and that our rights should be seen as just another government policy that can be introduced or repealed on a whim.

    So, much like slavery and apartheid were human rights issues, not political ones, so too is this.

    It's a fair point but the bakery is still entitled to disagree with the message on the cake as it contradicts with their ethos.


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    #434
    keano_afc
    Registered Users Posts: 8,711 ✭✭✭keano_afc


    So the civil rights of the baker are not applicable? Are one groups civil rights more prominent that the others?


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    #435
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    So a cake with a message about supporting gay marraige is not a political one. Good to know.

    The bakery did not refuse to bake the cake because of the sexual orientation of the customer but rather because of the message they wanted on it. If the bakery had told them "sorry we don't bake cakes for homosexuals" then this entire thing would be about something but that's not what happened.

    I wonder if it had been a bakery run by a Jewish or Muslim ethos would everyone be so quick to damn them?

    You did read this bit of the statement made by a spokesperson from Ashers?

    “We felt it was at odds with our beliefs and in contradiction with what the Bible teaches,”

    Ie the Bakery declined service on the basis of their religious beliefs on homosexuality.

    I believe all bakery's no matter what ethos they may subscribe have to implement equality legislation. So moot point.


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    #436
    FunLover18
    Registered Users Posts: 6,793 ✭✭✭FunLover18


    gozunda wrote: »
    You did read this bit if the statement made by a spokesperson from Ashers?

    “We felt it was at odds with our beliefs and in contradiction with what the Bible teaches,”

    I believe all bakery's no matter what ethos they may subscribe have to implement equality legislation. Do moot point.

    "It" being the message 'support SSM'.


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    #437
    floggg
    Registered Users Posts: 5,820 ✭✭✭floggg


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    If it's not a political issue why then is there a referendum on it? Why is it debated in parliament? Why do parties use itb to win votes?

    Something can be both a human rights issue and a political issue and this is one of them. The bakery should hopefully win this, they did not refuse the customer because of their sexual orientation but rather because of the message they wanted on the cake. It's as simple as that.

    If there was a referendum to strip black people of all property would that be a political issue or a human rights issue?


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    #438
    kunst nugget
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,375 ✭✭✭✭kunst nugget


    gozunda wrote: »
    You did read this bit if the statement made by a spokesperson from Ashers?

    “We felt it was at odds with our beliefs and in contradiction with what the Bible teaches,”

    I believe all bakery's no matter what ethos they may subscribe have to implement equality legislation. Do moot point.

    The point is that they refusal to bake the cake was not based on the sexual orientation of the person buying the cake but the message on the cake itself. If a straight person or a black person or a traveller, etc. had ordered the cake they would have refused to make it so they weren't discriminating against a gay person in refusing to make it.


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    #439
    Arbiter of Good Taste
    Registered Users Posts: 2,200 ✭✭✭Arbiter of Good Taste


    gozunda wrote: »
    You did read this bit if the statement made by a spokesperson from Ashers?

    “We felt it was at odds with our beliefs and in contradiction with what the Bible teaches,”

    I believe all bakery's no matter what ethos they may subscribe have to implement equality legislation. Do moot point.

    Please explain where the bakery is not implementing equality legislation. They DID NOT refuse to serve the customers, just to bake a particular type of cake. Do you understand the difference?


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    #440
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 15,814 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    gozunda wrote: »
    You did read this bit if the statement made by a spokesperson from Ashers?

    “We felt it was at odds with our beliefs and in contradiction with what the Bible teaches,”

    I believe all bakery's no matter what ethos they may subscribe have to implement equality legislation. Do moot point.

    I did read that bit and it refers to the message and not the person. They do not run a business that denies custom to homosexuals, they simply opted not to bake with a message they did not agree with. They have already stated that they have in the pretty refused to bake cakes with swearing and pornographic images. Should the people who had this requests turned down have a case for discrimination?


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    #441
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 15,814 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    floggg wrote: »
    If there was a referendum to strip black people of all property would that be a political issue or a human rights issue?

    It would be both.


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    #442
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Arbiter of Good Taste wrote: »
    The bakery is not refusing to provide services to homosexuals, just to bake a particular cake. So it has absolutely nothing to do with their sexual orientation.

    It would be different if they asked for a run of the mill cake and the bakery refused to serve them because they were gay.

    The equality commission have stated otherwise. The purchaser was denied services based on another persons / groups idea of their sexuality. It may be one singular incident but that does not refute that services were refused in contradiction to equality legislation.


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    #443
    PeteFalk78
    Closed Accounts Posts: 762 ✭✭✭PeteFalk78


    Did they order a fairy cake?


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    #444
    floggg
    Registered Users Posts: 5,820 ✭✭✭floggg


    kunst nugget wrote: »
    The point is that they refusal to bake the cake was not based on the sexual orientation of the person buying the cake but the message on the cake itself. If a straight person or a black person or a traveller, etc. had ordered the cake they would have refused to make it so they weren't discriminating against a gay person in refusing to make it.

    I don't know whether or not this is a case of indirect discrimination or not - but refusing a message not the person can be indirect discrimination.

    I.e. Something which is not directly targeted at a person themselves, but as a matter of practice is only likely to affect people who belong to the same group as that person.


    E.g. If I say I won't bake an Eid cake because I don't believe in Eid, yet will bake Xmas cakes with no issue, my rule will be indirectly discriminatory as in practice it will only effect Muslims.

    Whether that is the case here or not I don't know. I imagine it depend on whether they have a general rule against "advocacy cakes". If they previously baked a "ban abortion" cake they may have an issue. Or if they bake pro-Christian cakes but not anything that's out of line with Christian beliefs. They facilitate one religion but not people of different religions or no religion.


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    #445
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    keano_afc wrote: »
    So the civil rights of the baker are not applicable? Are one groups civil rights more prominent that the others?

    See relevant discrimination legislation. It may be enlightening. A useful example is the African American civil rights movement. Would you advocate segregation by colour because others believed it to be right? Their is no civil right to discriminate against others thankfully.


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    #446
    kunst nugget
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,375 ✭✭✭✭kunst nugget


    gozunda wrote: »
    The equality commission have stated otherwise. The purchaser was denied services based on another persons / groups idea of their sexuality. It may be one singular incident but that does not refute that services were refused in contradiction to equality legislation.

    The case is flawed. The equality commission will have to prove that the bakery would have made the exact same cake if the person ordering it had not been gay. I think it's safe to assume that they wouldn't have.


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    #447
    floggg
    Registered Users Posts: 5,820 ✭✭✭floggg


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    It would be both.

    I disagree. Human rights is never a "political" issue.

    At least you are consistent in your position.


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    #448
    kunst nugget
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,375 ✭✭✭✭kunst nugget


    floggg wrote: »
    I disagree. Human rights is never a "political" issue.

    At least you are consistent in your position.

    :confused:
    If human rights are denied to a minority group through the legislation of a country and the only way that these human rights can be gained by that group is through a referendum, then surely it becomes a political issue?


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    #449
    keano_afc
    Registered Users Posts: 8,711 ✭✭✭keano_afc


    gozunda wrote: »
    See relevant discrimination legislation. It may be enlightening. A useful example is the African American civil rights movement. Would you advocate segregation by colour because others believed it to be right? Their is no civil right to discriminate against others thankfully.

    But the bakery were not discriminating against anyone. They chose not to back a campaign that would go against their beliefs. The rights of no individuals were discriminated against.


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    #450
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 15,814 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    floggg wrote: »
    I disagree. Human rights is never a "political" issue.

    At least you are consistent in your position.

    So because you see it as a human rights issue and not a political one then it couldn't be the latter. Political parties use issues such as equal rights as a platform to run on and as such it's both. If it were not then it would not be debated by ministers.


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    #451
    Arbiter of Good Taste
    Registered Users Posts: 2,200 ✭✭✭Arbiter of Good Taste


    kunst nugget wrote: »
    The case is flawed. The equality commission will have to prove that the bakery would have made the exact same cake if the person ordering it had not been gay. I think it's safe to assume that they wouldn't have.

    Agree ^^^^. If it ends up in court, my money is on the equality commission's decision being overturned


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