Gay Cake Controversy!

magma69 · 08-07-2014 7:09pm

I like cake.

floggg · 08-07-2014 7:09pm

dxhound2005 wrote: »

"Traditional" marriage was developed to regulate the production (for want of a better word) of children and the inheritance of property. SSM, if children are to be produced, would always involve an outsider in the parentage. That child or those children could claim inheritance rights from their natural fathers/mothers. SSM is a different thing to man woman marriage.

Yes, "traditional marriage" was for that purpose. Thankfully we have moved so far away from "traditional marriage" that the current institution is almost unreconsibale for "traditional marriage."

I mean, we now let women choose who they marry, work, refuse sex and divorce their husband, never mind husbands not being allowed kill their wife and kids for any variety of trivial "offences."

dxhound2005 · 08-07-2014 7:16pm

floggg wrote: »

Yes, "traditional marriage" was for that purpose. Thankfully we have moved so far away from "traditional marriage" that the current institution is almost unreconsibale for "traditional marriage."

I mean, we know let women choose who they marry, work, refuse sex and divorce their husband, never mind husbands not being allowed kill their wife and kids for any variety of trivial "offences."

But "we" haven't moved as far as SSM either here or in the North yet. It is currently against the law in both administrations as it is in most of the world.

floggg · 08-07-2014 7:18pm

dxhound2005 wrote: »

But "we" haven't moved as far as SSM either here or in the North yet. It is currently against the law in both administrations as it is in most of the world.

And slavery was legal. So?

Just because something is legal doesn't mean it should be. Just because something isn't doesn't mean it should.

In any event NI still has civil partnerships so we can still have gay wedding cakes (unless you want to be a spoil sport pedant and insist it be called a civil partnership cake - but that doesn't sound very tasty).

Daith · 08-07-2014 7:20pm

dxhound2005 wrote: »

But "we" haven't moved as far as SSM either here or in the North yet. It is currently against the law in both administrations as it is in most of the world.

Except for the referendum next year?

Leaving aside this bloody cake issue the lack of SSM in Ireland doesn't mean that people can discriminate based on sexuality. So I'm unsure of the link.

JONJO THE MISER · 08-07-2014 7:20pm

bluewolf wrote: »

What a load of sh!te
A LGBT activist targetted a christian bakery.
It's a CAKE

Exactly, anything to create a little controversy by these crowd.

dxhound2005 · 08-07-2014 7:23pm

floggg wrote: »

And slavery was legal. So?

Just because something is legal doesn't mean it should be. Just because something isn't doesn't mean it should.

In any event NI still has civil partnerships so we can still have gay wedding cakes (unless you want to be a spoil sport pedant and insist it be called a civil partnership cake - but that doesn't sound very tasty).

And there are probably hundreds of cake shops where you could buy one. The political campaigner chose the one which takes it's name for the Bible and whose owners have in the past refused to supply cakes which they thought were unsuitable.

c_man · 08-07-2014 7:24pm

Whisko wrote: »

A Jewish butcher doesn't refuse to sell pork sausages, he doesn't stock and sell pork sausages in the first place. How can he refuse to sell something that isn't part of his stock?

Wait, the bakery had already stocked gay Bert and Ernie cakes???

dxhound2005 · 08-07-2014 7:25pm

Daith wrote: »

Except for the referendum next year?

Leaving aside this bloody cake issue the lack of SSM in Ireland doesn't mean that people can discriminate based on sexuality. So I'm unsure of the link.

If it is discrimination by the cake shop then it is also discrimination by the NI state which rejected SSM legislation. Ironic since it is the NI state which funds the Equality Commission which received the complaint about the shop.

forgotten password · 08-07-2014 7:27pm

i like cake

Daith · 08-07-2014 7:27pm

dxhound2005 wrote: »

If it is discrimination by the cake shop then it is also discrimination by the NI state which rejected SSM legislation. Ironic since it is the NI state which funds the Equality Commission which received the complaint about the shop.

Exactly. It is discrimination. They should just legalize SSM right?

dxhound2005 · 08-07-2014 7:31pm

Daith wrote: »

Exactly. It is discrimination. They should just legalize SSM right?

They being the politicians who are answerable to their electorate. The people of the North are not ready for SSM yet. Sinn Fein are on safe ground bringing the motion for it's introduction forward knowing that it won't go through. But many Catholics as well as Protestants are against it.

floggg · 08-07-2014 7:31pm

dxhound2005 wrote: »

If it is discrimination by the cake shop then it is also discrimination by the NI state which rejected SSM legislation. Ironic since it is the NI state which funds the Equality Commission which received the complaint about the shop.

Yes, ironic that a NI state agency in fulfilling it's statutory duty under NI laws. Whatever next!

And yes, a state can discriminate by legislation. You finally get it.

Thought I was gonna have to bust out the apartheid example.

dxhound2005 · 08-07-2014 7:33pm

floggg wrote: »

Yes, ironic that a NI state agency in enforcing NI laws. Whatever next!

It is not enforcing NI law. NI law forbids SSM. It is performing it's function of asking a shop to respond to a complaint, that complaint being based on sexual orientation. Nothing has been decided.

Annasopra · 08-07-2014 7:33pm

floggg wrote: »

Is "the boke" a euphemism for an erection?

I never heard of it before either http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=boke

Annasopra · 08-07-2014 7:35pm

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Arranged marriage is quite common worldwide between children and adults. It is done for economic reasons as was the arranged marriage system with dowries which existed here in the past. Most systems forbid consummation until the child is of age.

whatabout horses? :rolleyes:

dxhound2005 · 08-07-2014 7:35pm

forgotten password wrote: »

i like cake

What's wrong with buns?

floggg · 08-07-2014 7:37pm

dxhound2005 wrote: »

It is not enforcing NI law. NI law forbids SSM. It is performing it's function of asking a shop to respond to a complaint, that complaint being based on sexual orientation. Nothing has been decided.

I amended to reflect the fact I don't believe any final determination has been made either way.

Right now the authority suspects there has been a breach of NI law - hence the letter.

The don't wrote those things on request - they must think there is sole case to answer.

Whether there was a breach remains to be seen.

Heatmachine1 · 08-07-2014 7:40pm

It's just words,feckin bake a cake and put on a bit of icing spelling out what the ckient wants.

AnonoBoy · 08-07-2014 7:49pm

I too would like to express my fondness for cake.

FunLover18 · 08-07-2014 7:49pm

I was listening to the Matt Cooper piece about this earlier. A representative from the Christian institute said that the bakery would not turn down the business of someone because of their sexuality, the reason they declined to do this caked was because of the political issue which the buyer wanted stamped across it. I'm in favour of SSM but if someone who isn't doesn't want to bake a cake with a support SSM on it than I think that's perfectly within their right.

I'd imagine that if a patron went into a baker run by a homosexual and asked for a cake with 'Down with SSM' on it, the baker would probably decline and we'd all be singing his praises.

dxhound2005 · 08-07-2014 7:49pm

floggg wrote: »

I amended to reflect the fact I don't believe any final determination has been made either way.

Right now the authority suspects there has been a breach of NI law - hence the letter.

The don't wrote those things on request - they must think there is sole case to answer.

Whether there was a breach remains to be seen.

I think the shop could claim (truthfully) that any person who asked them to put that political slogan on a cake would have been refused. They would recognise the racial profile of the customer and would not have made any attempt to indentify their religion, sexual orientation, nationality or whether they belonged to the travelling community. So there is no discrimination, they simply refused to supply a cake with a political message which they thought was unsuitable.

If they are found "guilty" expect lots of requests for Rangers/Celtic, Up the RA, F the Pope etc on cakes in the "wrong" areas of Belfast to get the compensation money.

Hande hoche! · 08-07-2014 8:45pm

Watching two lads argue over this on Sky News. Slow news day.

FunLover18 · 08-07-2014 8:48pm

Hande hoche! wrote: »

Watching two lads argue over this on Sky News. Slow news day.

Don't tell me Sky News has missed out on Brooksgate?

RobbingBandit · 08-07-2014 8:52pm

floggg · 08-07-2014 8:57pm

dxhound2005 wrote: »

I think the shop could claim (truthfully) that any person who asked them to put that political slogan on a cake would have been refused. They would recognise the racial profile of the customer and would not have made any attempt to indentify their religion, sexual orientation, nationality or whether they belonged to the travelling community. So there is no discrimination, they simply refused to supply a cake with a political message which they thought was unsuitable.

If they are found "guilty" expect lots of requests for Rangers/Celtic, Up the RA, F the Pope etc on cakes in the "wrong" areas of Belfast to get the compensation money.

I think they would need to show a policy against political cakes to be honest, rather than the specific message. Otherwise it may well be indirect discrimination - we'll write political messages for very body but the gays.

In this instance I hope they aren't found to have violated equality law, just because I disagree with setting somebody up like this (if it was a set up).

However I fully agree with the equality legislation as a whole, and if it is only certain groups who are refused, or if they refused civil partnership cakes for example, I would agree with any finding against them outside of a set up like this appears to be.

Gael23 · 08-07-2014 9:00pm

What a sorry mess!
Does he not understand that this could well destroy his reputation and Business?

knipex · 08-07-2014 9:00pm

From what I can figure out this is just a publicity stunt..

No one has alleged that they refused to serve or accept an order from anyone due to sexual orientation.

The allegation is that to refuse a commission to decorate a cake with a political or other slogan which AFAIK is not illegal. ...

BTW I would be a supporter of gay marriage but the way the campaign is being run with cheap stunts is seriously off putting. ...

P_1 · 08-07-2014 9:03pm

floggg wrote: »

I think they would need to show a policy against political cakes to be honest, rather than the specific message. Otherwise it may well be indirect discrimination - we'll write political messages for very body but the gays.

In this instance I hope they aren't found to have violated equality law, just because I disagree with setting somebody up like this (if it was a set up).

However I fully agree with the equality legislation as a whole, and if it is only certain groups who are refused, or if they refused civil partnership cakes for example, I would agree with any finding against them outside of a set up like this appears to be.

True, having an image of a 12th celebration cake emerge could make things quite awkward for them alright.

catallus · 08-07-2014 9:05pm

Using cake as a weapon makes me make a sadface

K-9 · 08-07-2014 9:10pm

JONJO THE MISER wrote: »

Exactly, anything to create a little controversy by these crowd.

Post trying to be controversial complaining about others being controversial.

dissed doc · 08-07-2014 9:11pm

floggg wrote: »

Lol. You know nothing John Snow.

As I've said this in instance I don't think you should be forced to include a "political" statement (in the sense it advocates a change in the law).

However, a wedding cake (or civil partnership cake) for a gay couple isn't a cake of a "particular type".

But this cake is definitely a particular type, one with a political slogan on it, for something that is as it stands, illegal.

Let's see the same people demand the kosher butcher cook a pig on a spit for the wedding reception.

It's defining feature is that it's a cake. Or if you want to be more specific, a cake with a congratulatory message on it and/or some cake toppers.

Except, a cake with a political message. They wanted more than a cake. If they wanted a cake, it would be fine, but they wanted a baked political statement. No-one should be forced to concede to others against their will.

The gender, sexual orientation or marital status of the people eating it doesn't change the defining character of the cake. Nor does the gender of the names appearing in the congratulatory message or the cake toppers.

Exactly. But they didn't order a simple cake, they wanted one with a statement; and people are free to disagree with a statement. Are you forced to march in gay pride? I hope so.

If the gay couple were nazis and wanted a cake shaped like a swastika, could the baker refuse? of course. so why not here, when another political statement is being made. It has nothing do with the sexual orientation of the couple.

Or a butcher refusing to sell halal meat? Discrimination against Muslims? Or does he simply disagree with how halal meat is made.

P_1 · 08-07-2014 9:11pm

catallus wrote: »

Using cake as a weapon makes me make a sadface

Ah now don't tell me you've never laughed at a pie gag :P

catallus · 08-07-2014 9:17pm

Of course I've laughed at pie-gags, I'm only human.

But taking something we all love and using it as a pawn to spread hurt should give us all pause. Cake is what brings us together.

Gallowglass · 08-07-2014 9:19pm

This is awful boring stuff so it is, how did it get 26 pages of comments? this is the least of our problems up here in July

FunLover18 · 08-07-2014 9:20pm

catallus wrote: »

Of course I've laughed at pie-gags, I'm only human.

But taking something we all love and using it as a pawn to spread hurt should give us all pause. Cake is what brings us together.

:eek:

SHOVELLER · 08-07-2014 9:37pm

Corkfeen wrote: »

There would be no issue if the shop just did their job....

They can serve or not serve whomever they choose.

floggg · 08-07-2014 9:38pm

dissed doc wrote: »

But this cake is definitely a particular type, one with a political slogan on it, for something that is as it stands, illegal.

Let's see the same people demand the kosher butcher cook a pig on a spit for the wedding reception.

Except, a cake with a political message. They wanted more than a cake. If they wanted a cake, it would be fine, but they wanted a baked political statement. No-one should be forced to concede to others against their will.

Exactly. But they didn't order a simple cake, they wanted one with a statement; and people are free to disagree with a statement. Are you forced to march in gay pride? I hope so.

If the gay couple were nazis and wanted a cake shaped like a swastika, could the baker refuse? of course. so why not here, when another political statement is being made. It has nothing do with the sexual orientation of the couple.

Or a butcher refusing to sell halal meat? Discrimination against Muslims? Or does he simply disagree with how halal meat is made.

You see the first three paragraphs of my post that I quoted? The ones where I said in this instance they probably shouldn't have to include a political/advocacy message? And which went on to set up my discussion about (non-political/advocacy) wedding/CP cakes?

Yea? How about you read those again and tell me why you ignored them when you start quoting my subsequent paragraphs about those same (non-political/advocacy) wedding/CP cakes.

If you did that in the first place you could have saved us both a lot of time.

Overheal · 08-07-2014 9:40pm

bluewolf wrote: »

What a load of sh!te
A LGBT activist targetted a christian bakery.
It's a CAKE

Agreed. This is no different that Gun Rights activists holding rallies at completely irrelevant venues like Starbucks and Target, and then getting pissy when those companies ask them to stop coming.

dxhound2005 · 08-07-2014 9:45pm

Gallowglass wrote: »

This is awful boring stuff so it is, how did it get 26 pages of comments? this is the least of our problems up here in July

I tuned in to Stephen Nolan at 9 o'clock this morning expecting to listen to the usual stuff about flegs and marches. Instead of that I got an hour about cakes. Makes a refreshing change. Even the last half hour was mostly about cakes and the upcoming public service strike. No traffic wardens there on Thursday.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b048j29p

catallus · 08-07-2014 9:46pm

Nolan does like his cake

And there's no-one better than him at stirring shyte; the man is a master!

dxhound2005 · 08-07-2014 9:49pm

catallus wrote: »

Nolan does like his cake

And there's no-one better than him at stirring shyte; the man is a master!

Agreed. He is the Northern equivalent of Vincent Brown all faux outrage and bluster. I added a link to the programme in my post above if anyone wants to have a listen.

Gallowglass · 08-07-2014 10:26pm

dxhound2005 wrote: »

I tuned in to Stephen Nolan at 9 o'clock this morning expecting to listen to the usual stuff about flegs and marches. Instead of that I got an hour about cakes. Makes a refreshing change. Even the last half hour was mostly about cakes and the upcoming public service strike. No traffic wardens there on Thursday.

I'm sure big Stephen bought a few cream buns when he left the studio

wendell borton · 08-07-2014 10:33pm

I don't think I can take it, cause it took so long to bake it, I'll never have that recipe again.

TireeTerror · 08-07-2014 11:00pm

I wonder if anyone has stopped to consider the cake's feelings in this, I think to call it gay without determining its sexuality could be offensive to it.

Jimoslimos · 08-07-2014 11:22pm

Overheal wrote: »

Agreed. This is no different that Gun Rights activists holding rallies at completely irrelevant venues like Starbucks and Target, and then getting pissy when those companies ask them to stop coming.

In fairness Target sounds like a perfect place for a gun rally, the logo could be useful too!

chrissb8 · 09-07-2014 5:43am

It's his shop and he can run it how he likes. If he is homophobic so be it as long as he isn't actively hating LGBT movements need not latch on to something so menial isn't there gay people suffering in Russia or did cake become a larger issue?

oldyouth · 09-07-2014 7:31am

The shop is perfectly entitled to refuse any custom but I think it is a wrong decision, purely from a business point of view. When in business, you should never alienate any sector of your market. I do think the activists carefully chose this shop to create the controversy though. I'm sure it was known that the owners had a particular ethos

old hippy · 09-07-2014 12:35pm

padd b1975 wrote: »

I read it as an another trumped up reason to play the discrimination card.:rolleyes:

I read it as another chance for padd to salivate over a thread concerning homosexuality.

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Such intolerance towards the religious.

Yes, we should be bending over backwards to accommodate the feelings of the poor religious folk and how they are not allowed discriminate anymore without being called out on it.

SHOVELLER wrote: »

A cake???

Anyone else sick and tired of their constant whinging?

Yes, I'm a sick to the back teeth (gag! gag!) of pious types finding yet another excuse to discriminate against gay people and/or SSM.

JONJO THE MISER wrote: »

Exactly, anything to create a little controversy by these crowd.

The more the better, Jonjo. THE MORE THE BETTER.

knipex wrote: »

From what I can figure out this is just a publicity stunt..

No one has alleged that they refused to serve or accept an order from anyone due to sexual orientation.

The allegation is that to refuse a commission to decorate a cake with a political or other slogan which AFAIK is not illegal. ...

BTW I would be a supporter of gay marriage but the way the campaign is being run with cheap stunts is seriously off putting. ...

Shocking cake tactics, altogether. Best vote no & deny people equality. We must think of the cake makers. Blessed are the cake makers!

Gallowglass wrote: »

This is awful boring stuff so it is, how did it get 26 pages of comments? this is the least of our problems up here in July

Because it brings out the very best in people. We see our own foolishness and contemplate the steps we must take to perfection, love and harmony. Or something.

TireeTerror wrote: »

I wonder if anyone has stopped to consider the cake's feelings in this, I think to call it gay without determining its sexuality could be offensive to it.

Hmm. You've gone from satire to surrealism. I don't like it.

Caliden · 09-07-2014 12:39pm

oldyouth wrote: »

The shop is perfectly entitled to refuse any custom but I think it is a wrong decision, purely from a business point of view. When in business, you should never alienate any sector of your market. I do think the activists carefully chose this shop to create the controversy though. I'm sure it was known that the owners had a particular ethos

At what point though do you draw the line?

Swastika with the slogan 'If it ain't white, it ain't right' on it?

Gay Cake Controversy!

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