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Gay Cake Controversy!

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Comments

  • #362
    Daith
    Registered Users Posts: 4,933 ✭✭✭Daith


    dxhound2005 wrote: »
    If it is discrimination by the cake shop then it is also discrimination by the NI state which rejected SSM legislation. Ironic since it is the NI state which funds the Equality Commission which received the complaint about the shop.

    Exactly. It is discrimination. They should just legalize SSM right?


  • #363
    dxhound2005
    Registered Users Posts: 20,479 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    Daith wrote: »
    Exactly. It is discrimination. They should just legalize SSM right?

    They being the politicians who are answerable to their electorate. The people of the North are not ready for SSM yet. Sinn Fein are on safe ground bringing the motion for it's introduction forward knowing that it won't go through. But many Catholics as well as Protestants are against it.


  • #364
    floggg
    Registered Users Posts: 5,820 ✭✭✭floggg


    dxhound2005 wrote: »
    If it is discrimination by the cake shop then it is also discrimination by the NI state which rejected SSM legislation. Ironic since it is the NI state which funds the Equality Commission which received the complaint about the shop.

    Yes, ironic that a NI state agency in fulfilling it's statutory duty under NI laws. Whatever next!

    And yes, a state can discriminate by legislation. You finally get it.

    Thought I was gonna have to bust out the apartheid example.


  • #365
    dxhound2005
    Registered Users Posts: 20,479 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    floggg wrote: »
    Yes, ironic that a NI state agency in enforcing NI laws. Whatever next!

    It is not enforcing NI law. NI law forbids SSM. It is performing it's function of asking a shop to respond to a complaint, that complaint being based on sexual orientation. Nothing has been decided.


  • #366
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,790 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    floggg wrote: »
    Is "the boke" a euphemism for an erection?
    I never heard of it before either http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=boke

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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  • #367
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,790 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    dxhound2005 wrote: »
    Arranged marriage is quite common worldwide between children and adults. It is done for economic reasons as was the arranged marriage system with dowries which existed here in the past. Most systems forbid consummation until the child is of age.

    whatabout horses? :rolleyes:

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #368
    dxhound2005
    Registered Users Posts: 20,479 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    forgotten password wrote: »
    i like cake

    What's wrong with buns?


  • #369
    floggg
    Registered Users Posts: 5,820 ✭✭✭floggg


    dxhound2005 wrote: »
    It is not enforcing NI law. NI law forbids SSM. It is performing it's function of asking a shop to respond to a complaint, that complaint being based on sexual orientation. Nothing has been decided.

    I amended to reflect the fact I don't believe any final determination has been made either way.

    Right now the authority suspects there has been a breach of NI law - hence the letter.

    The don't wrote those things on request - they must think there is sole case to answer.

    Whether there was a breach remains to be seen.


  • #370
    Heatmachine1
    Registered Users Posts: 53 ✭✭Heatmachine1


    It's just words,feckin bake a cake and put on a bit of icing spelling out what the ckient wants.


  • #371
    AnonoBoy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,559 ✭✭✭✭AnonoBoy


    I too would like to express my fondness for cake.


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  • #372
    FunLover18
    Registered Users Posts: 6,793 ✭✭✭FunLover18


    I was listening to the Matt Cooper piece about this earlier. A representative from the Christian institute said that the bakery would not turn down the business of someone because of their sexuality, the reason they declined to do this caked was because of the political issue which the buyer wanted stamped across it. I'm in favour of SSM but if someone who isn't doesn't want to bake a cake with a support SSM on it than I think that's perfectly within their right.

    I'd imagine that if a patron went into a baker run by a homosexual and asked for a cake with 'Down with SSM' on it, the baker would probably decline and we'd all be singing his praises.


  • #373
    dxhound2005
    Registered Users Posts: 20,479 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    floggg wrote: »
    I amended to reflect the fact I don't believe any final determination has been made either way.

    Right now the authority suspects there has been a breach of NI law - hence the letter.

    The don't wrote those things on request - they must think there is sole case to answer.

    Whether there was a breach remains to be seen.

    I think the shop could claim (truthfully) that any person who asked them to put that political slogan on a cake would have been refused. They would recognise the racial profile of the customer and would not have made any attempt to indentify their religion, sexual orientation, nationality or whether they belonged to the travelling community. So there is no discrimination, they simply refused to supply a cake with a political message which they thought was unsuitable.

    If they are found "guilty" expect lots of requests for Rangers/Celtic, Up the RA, F the Pope etc on cakes in the "wrong" areas of Belfast to get the compensation money.


  • #374
    Hande hoche!
    Registered Users Posts: 7,423 ✭✭✭Hande hoche!


    Watching two lads argue over this on Sky News. Slow news day.


  • #375
    FunLover18
    Registered Users Posts: 6,793 ✭✭✭FunLover18


    Hande hoche! wrote: »
    Watching two lads argue over this on Sky News. Slow news day.

    Don't tell me Sky News has missed out on Brooksgate?


  • #376
    RobbingBandit
    Registered Users Posts: 18,075 ✭✭✭✭RobbingBandit




  • #377
    floggg
    Registered Users Posts: 5,820 ✭✭✭floggg


    dxhound2005 wrote: »
    I think the shop could claim (truthfully) that any person who asked them to put that political slogan on a cake would have been refused. They would recognise the racial profile of the customer and would not have made any attempt to indentify their religion, sexual orientation, nationality or whether they belonged to the travelling community. So there is no discrimination, they simply refused to supply a cake with a political message which they thought was unsuitable.

    If they are found "guilty" expect lots of requests for Rangers/Celtic, Up the RA, F the Pope etc on cakes in the "wrong" areas of Belfast to get the compensation money.

    I think they would need to show a policy against political cakes to be honest, rather than the specific message. Otherwise it may well be indirect discrimination - we'll write political messages for very body but the gays.

    In this instance I hope they aren't found to have violated equality law, just because I disagree with setting somebody up like this (if it was a set up).

    However I fully agree with the equality legislation as a whole, and if it is only certain groups who are refused, or if they refused civil partnership cakes for example, I would agree with any finding against them outside of a set up like this appears to be.


  • #378
    Gael23
    Registered Users Posts: 12,086 ✭✭✭✭Gael23


    What a sorry mess!
    Does he not understand that this could well destroy his reputation and Business?


  • #379
    knipex
    Registered Users Posts: 2,018 ✭✭✭knipex


    From what I can figure out this is just a publicity stunt..

    No one has alleged that they refused to serve or accept an order from anyone due to sexual orientation.

    The allegation is that to refuse a commission to decorate a cake with a political or other slogan which AFAIK is not illegal. ...

    BTW I would be a supporter of gay marriage but the way the campaign is being run with cheap stunts is seriously off putting. ...


  • #380
    P_1
    Registered Users Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭P_1


    floggg wrote: »
    I think they would need to show a policy against political cakes to be honest, rather than the specific message. Otherwise it may well be indirect discrimination - we'll write political messages for very body but the gays.

    In this instance I hope they aren't found to have violated equality law, just because I disagree with setting somebody up like this (if it was a set up).

    However I fully agree with the equality legislation as a whole, and if it is only certain groups who are refused, or if they refused civil partnership cakes for example, I would agree with any finding against them outside of a set up like this appears to be.

    True, having an image of a 12th celebration cake emerge could make things quite awkward for them alright.


  • #381
    catallus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭catallus


    Using cake as a weapon makes me make a sadface :(


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  • #382
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    JONJO THE MISER wrote: »
    Exactly, anything to create a little controversy by these crowd.

    Post trying to be controversial complaining about others being controversial.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • #383
    dissed doc
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,489 ✭✭✭dissed doc


    floggg wrote: »
    Lol. You know nothing John Snow.

    As I've said this in instance I don't think you should be forced to include a "political" statement (in the sense it advocates a change in the law).

    However, a wedding cake (or civil partnership cake) for a gay couple isn't a cake of a "particular type".

    But this cake is definitely a particular type, one with a political slogan on it, for something that is as it stands, illegal.

    Let's see the same people demand the kosher butcher cook a pig on a spit for the wedding reception.



    It's defining feature is that it's a cake. Or if you want to be more specific, a cake with a congratulatory message on it and/or some cake toppers.

    Except, a cake with a political message. They wanted more than a cake. If they wanted a cake, it would be fine, but they wanted a baked political statement. No-one should be forced to concede to others against their will.
    The gender, sexual orientation or marital status of the people eating it doesn't change the defining character of the cake. Nor does the gender of the names appearing in the congratulatory message or the cake toppers.

    Exactly. But they didn't order a simple cake, they wanted one with a statement; and people are free to disagree with a statement. Are you forced to march in gay pride? I hope so.

    If the gay couple were nazis and wanted a cake shaped like a swastika, could the baker refuse? of course. so why not here, when another political statement is being made. It has nothing do with the sexual orientation of the couple.

    Or a butcher refusing to sell halal meat? Discrimination against Muslims? Or does he simply disagree with how halal meat is made.


  • #384
    P_1
    Registered Users Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭P_1


    catallus wrote: »
    Using cake as a weapon makes me make a sadface :(

    Ah now don't tell me you've never laughed at a pie gag :P


  • #385
    catallus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭catallus


    Of course I've laughed at pie-gags, I'm only human.

    But taking something we all love and using it as a pawn to spread hurt should give us all pause. Cake is what brings us together.


  • #386
    Gallowglass
    Closed Accounts Posts: 81 ✭✭Gallowglass


    This is awful boring stuff so it is, how did it get 26 pages of comments? this is the least of our problems up here in July


  • #387
    FunLover18
    Registered Users Posts: 6,793 ✭✭✭FunLover18


    catallus wrote: »
    Of course I've laughed at pie-gags, I'm only human.

    But taking something we all love and using it as a pawn to spread hurt should give us all pause. Cake is what brings us together.

    :eek:



  • #388
    SHOVELLER
    Registered Users Posts: 1,638 ✭✭✭SHOVELLER


    Corkfeen wrote: »
    There would be no issue if the shop just did their job....

    They can serve or not serve whomever they choose.


  • #389
    floggg
    Registered Users Posts: 5,820 ✭✭✭floggg


    dissed doc wrote: »
    But this cake is definitely a particular type, one with a political slogan on it, for something that is as it stands, illegal.

    Let's see the same people demand the kosher butcher cook a pig on a spit for the wedding reception.






    Except, a cake with a political message. They wanted more than a cake. If they wanted a cake, it would be fine, but they wanted a baked political statement. No-one should be forced to concede to others against their will.



    Exactly. But they didn't order a simple cake, they wanted one with a statement; and people are free to disagree with a statement. Are you forced to march in gay pride? I hope so.

    If the gay couple were nazis and wanted a cake shaped like a swastika, could the baker refuse? of course. so why not here, when another political statement is being made. It has nothing do with the sexual orientation of the couple.

    Or a butcher refusing to sell halal meat? Discrimination against Muslims? Or does he simply disagree with how halal meat is made.

    You see the first three paragraphs of my post that I quoted? The ones where I said in this instance they probably shouldn't have to include a political/advocacy message? And which went on to set up my discussion about (non-political/advocacy) wedding/CP cakes?

    Yea? How about you read those again and tell me why you ignored them when you start quoting my subsequent paragraphs about those same (non-political/advocacy) wedding/CP cakes.

    If you did that in the first place you could have saved us both a lot of time.


  • #390
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 81,599 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    bluewolf wrote: »
    What a load of sh!te
    A LGBT activist targetted a christian bakery.
    It's a CAKE

    Agreed. This is no different that Gun Rights activists holding rallies at completely irrelevant venues like Starbucks and Target, and then getting pissy when those companies ask them to stop coming.


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  • #391
    dxhound2005
    Registered Users Posts: 20,479 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    Gallowglass wrote: »
    This is awful boring stuff so it is, how did it get 26 pages of comments? this is the least of our problems up here in July

    I tuned in to Stephen Nolan at 9 o'clock this morning expecting to listen to the usual stuff about flegs and marches. Instead of that I got an hour about cakes. Makes a refreshing change. Even the last half hour was mostly about cakes and the upcoming public service strike. No traffic wardens there on Thursday.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b048j29p


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