Judge gives mother, guilty of manslaughter, suspended sentence.

Maphisto · 07-07-2014 09:01PM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Sure, I'm just pointing out that society's default reaction when it's a woman seems to be "God, what was wrong with her, why would she do that" whereas with a man it seems to be "another monstrous psychopath. Hang him."

Fair comment

Azwaldo55 · 07-07-2014 09:03PM

Pocoyo wrote: »

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/judge-gives-woman-suspended-sentence-for-sons-manslaughter-635602.html?utm_source=iosapp&utm_medium=share&utm_campaign=sharebutton

How do women keep getting away with murder,She smothered her 8 year old son I am sick of hearing these stories more and more of these stories are being reported and the women tend to get light or no sentences on mental grounds.

An 8 year old child is dead.

The woman was and is mentally ill.
Did you miss that or something?
It's a travesty of justice that she should have been charged or tried for anything at all.
She was not and is not responsible for her actions.
You cannot punish a woman who was out of her mind and didn't know what she was doing.
She needs care for the rest of her life.
Not condemnation from ignorant people like you!
I suppose you want to bring back hanging?
You probably don't want to pay taxes for mental health services but you probably want to execute a mentally ill woman am I right?
You are utterly heartless.
Shame on you!

07-07-2014 09:04PM

Sulla Felix wrote: »

Every study I've ever seen shows the contrary.
From this '99 study for the US (you're not going tofind numbers for Ireland, we just don't seem to do the statistical grinding that they do in other countries. Might be able to find some UK figures though) http://web.archive.org/web/20040206092557/http:/www.calib.com/nccanch/chma99.pdf
The ratio of infanticide there by women:men is 3:1. Of 1000 fatalities recorded, 31.5% were perpetrated by the mother alone, 10.7% by the father alone. Both acting together came out at 20%.

Oh, another tidbit from the study murder-suicide of one parent and children is more common amongst women (like this case), murder suicide of self, spouse and children is more common amongst men but is still much less common over all.

Post partum depression/psychosis is a known factor in most cases of maternal infanticide, a factor that doesn't apply to fathers. It's not a straightforward comparison.

d9oiu2wk07blr5 · 07-07-2014 09:05PM

dj jarvis wrote: »

i agree 100% - but if it was a man suffering the same illness as this mother was, i dont think he would be getting a suspended sentence and allowed go on his way.

there does appear to be double standard towards men - and i can see why that would wind some people up.

a neighbour of mine back in the early 80's knifed her husband , killed him stone dead on the kitchen floor ,
at her trial , she claimed he was violently abusing her , but had no police reports , or medical proof to back up her claim - still walked , was even out on bail until the trail,
dont get me wrong , this lad was a prick by all accounts , but from what i could gather locally at the time - she attacked him as he was eating his dinner.

i dont think a bloke would ever walk from that one

but, as you said , a bastard of an illness

She hasn't walked. She's been admitted to a psychiatric facility as a voluntary patient, also known as a defacto involuntary patient, which she'll quickly turn in to the minute that she attempts to leave that approved centre.

Greenmachine · 07-07-2014 09:07PM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Sure, I'm just pointing out that society's default reaction when it's a woman seems to be "God, what was wrong with her, why would she do that" whereas with a man it seems to be "another monstrous psychopath. Hang him."

True that a man is seen as inherently evil, where their victim is more vunerable. Women are viewed as delicate flowers in such cases overcome by some kind of unavoidable overload.

hatrickpatrick · 07-07-2014 09:07PM

Candie wrote: »

Post partum depression/psychosis is a known factor in most cases of maternal infanticide, a factor that doesn't apply to fathers. It's not a straightforward comparison.

Men go through serious mental ealth issues as well though - as evidenced by the appalling level of male suicide. Yet it's never a "default" assumption the way it is with mothers. With fathers, people assume he's just a dick unless told otherwise. With mothers, people assume there's a mitigating factor unless told otherwise.

Default biases say a lot about society's attitudes, that's all I'm saying - in ther words, people's gut reaction before any details are known.

07-07-2014 09:11PM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Men go through serious mental ealth issues as well though - as evidenced by the appalling level of male suicide. Yet it's never a "default" assumption the way it is with mothers. With fathers, people assume he's just a dick unless told otherwise. With mothers, people assume there's a mitigating factor unless told otherwise.

Default biases say a lot about society's attitudes, that's all I'm saying - in ther words, people's gut reaction before any details are known.

They do not, however, give birth or become subject to the overwhelming hormonal upheaval that women do on becoming parents. It's not a straightforward comparison.

Bongalongherb · 07-07-2014 09:13PM

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

I really am getting fed up to my eye teeth of this rubbish, this was a mother who through her own hand took the life of her child, a child she gave birth to and raised for eight years. She while suffering a terrible illness did that, and she will have to live with that horrible fact for her own life, I can only guess what this women must go through on a daily basis.

I think we have a compassionate legal system, that thankfully does not take an eye for an eye, but as a society we give even to those who have done things none of us can forgive, but yes we give compassion.

Could you have gone into that court, could you have listened to that horrific evidence and then against all you feel find that most difficult of things compassion and love, I hope you could or otherwise we are undeserving of justice or compassion. There but for the grace etc. We thankfully are human with some touch of kindness, but after reading some of the post on here I wonder.

Would you ever stop. It is quite clear that this was murder so I don't care whether you are fed-up with listening to it. She should have got 10 years without question.

Azwaldo55 · 07-07-2014 09:14PM

Greenmachine wrote: »

True that a man is seen as inherently evil, where their victim is more vunerable. Women are viewed as delicate flowers in such cases overcome by some kind of unavoidable overload.

Not when it comes to the courts where these cases are decided by the facts.
Judges and juries are given the full facts about men who come before the courts and mitigating factors are always taken into account.
There have been numerous cases over the years in which men who were mentally ill were sent to mental hospitals rather than sent to prison.
There was a case a few years ago of a teenage boy who beaten his drunken violent abusive father to death after he snapped when his father beat his mother once again. The boy had grown up with years of physically and mental abuse and he had enough. He also walked.

07-07-2014 09:15PM

Bongalongherb wrote: »

Would you ever stop. It is quite clear that this was murder so I don't care whether you are fed-up with listening to it. She should have got 10 years without question.

Do you believe mental illness doesn't exist, or that it just didn't exist here? And how do you make that judgement?

SEPT 23 1989 · 07-07-2014 09:16PM

If you want to top yourself go ahead but how dare they take an innocent child with their whole life ahead of them with them RIP

hatrickpatrick · 07-07-2014 09:17PM

Candie wrote: »

They do not, however, give birth or become subject to the overwhelming hormonal upheaval that women do on becoming parents. It's not a straightforward comparison.

They go through plenty of other upheavals though, and there's clear evidence that men suffer from widespread, undiagnosed serious depression. If metal illness is a mitigating factor, fair enough - but the presumption of mental illness shouldn't be gender specific.

Starmixed · 07-07-2014 09:18PM

egghead. wrote: »

People do terrible things when depressed, ita an illness, the brain doesn't be thinking straight, bastard of a disease.

Did you read the part where she was declared mentally sane and fit to leave the hospital?

If she was declared mentally sane then she is responsible fir her actions.

A man would never get such leniency.

07-07-2014 09:19PM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

They go through plenty of other upheavals though, and there's clear evidence that men suffer from widespread, undiagnosed serious depression. If metal illness is a mitigating factor, fair enough - but the presumption of mental illness shouldn't be gender specific.

It's for the courts and expert witnesses to decide. As they did in this case.

07-07-2014 09:21PM

Starmixed wrote: »

Did you read the part where she was declared mentally sane and fit to leave the hospital?

If she was declared mentally sane then she is responsible fir her actions.

A man would never get such leniency.

She was not considered responsible at the time of the offence. She is now recovered.

It's really not that hard to understand, although the difference between manslaughter and murder is lost on quite a few.

Starmixed · 07-07-2014 09:21PM

Azwaldo55 wrote: »

She was not and is not responsible for her actions.
You cannot punish a woman
She needs care

But you can punish a mentally ill man?

hatrickpatrick · 07-07-2014 09:21PM

Candie wrote: »

It's for the courts and expert witnesses to decide. As they did in this case.

I'm not talking about the courts, I'm talking about the general public's response to such stories, which in my view reveals deep rooted sexism.

dj jarvis · 07-07-2014 09:23PM

Jaxen Fit Moose wrote: »

She hasn't walked. She's been admitted to a psychiatric facility as a voluntary patient, also known as a defacto involuntary patient, which she'll quickly turn in to the minute that she attempts to leave that approved centre.

i am aware of that , its a six month placement

in the grand scale of punishments - she walked away

Starmixed · 07-07-2014 09:23PM

Candie wrote: »

She was not considered responsible at the time of the offence. She is now recovered.

It's really not that hard to understand, although the difference between manslaughter and murder is lost on quite a few.

She was declared sane BEFORE her crime and released BEFORE she brutally murdered a child

dm1979 · 07-07-2014 09:28PM

she needed help and got it and WILL have to live with what she has done, that woundnt change if she was in prison or free. It will stay with her forever. Its the family and friends I feel for. Later this year I will have to have a conversation with my children, telling them the person person who killed their friends is either in prison for a long time or free because he is now mentally ok but wasn't when he did what he did. Our justice system in cases like this tries to do what's best for person who is on trial, not for family or friends of the deceaced, a long sentance is easier to except, its justice done in many eyes, while treatment and a soft sentance is a get out of jail free card. There is no easy way to handle these cases, no right way, sorry for the waffle it just touched a cord

07-07-2014 09:31PM

Starmixed wrote: »

She was declared sane BEFORE her crime and released BEFORE she brutally murdered a child

Not in the article linked to in the OP.

The incident was in 2012, she's been held in Dundrum since and has been handed a sentence of 7 years suspended if she gets treated until fit to return to her life. She no longer meets the criteria for a mental disorder.

Starmixed · 07-07-2014 09:39PM

Candie wrote: »

She no longer meets the criteria for a mental disorder.

And hence should be tried for murder most foul.

Would you have the same sympathy if I, (a man) was in a similar situation?

hatrickpatrick · 07-07-2014 09:45PM

Starmixed wrote: »

And hence should be tried for murder most foul.

Would you have the same sympathy if I, (a man) was in a similar situation?

Apparently not, since apparently we don't go through any upheavals after having a kid or suffer from depression to the same severity as postpartum depression. :rolleyes:

Frito · 07-07-2014 09:48PM

Candie wrote: »

has been handed a sentence of 7 years suspended if she gets treated until fit to return to her life. She no longer meets the criteria for a mental disorder.

This is the part that confuses me...if she's no longer ill, then what illness is she being treated for as a voluntary patient?
I'm assuming the reporting is confused, that she no longer meets the criteria for detention under the mental health act (thus cannot remain in cmh) rather than no longer disordered. I am speculating though.

07-07-2014 09:50PM

Starmixed wrote: »

And hence should be tried for murder most foul.

Would you have the same sympathy if I, (a man) was in a similar situation?

No, she was tried according to her state of mind at the time of the crime. It's not unreasonable.

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Apparently not, since apparently we don't go through any upheavals after having a kid or suffer from depression to the same severity as postpartum depression. :rolleyes:

Please don't put words in my mouth, since I said nothing about sympathy or judgement. All I did was point out a relevent factor in infanticide figures. I made no judgement on men.

Save your rolleyes for something based in reality, not on your own assumptions.

Pro Hoc Vice · 07-07-2014 09:53PM

Frito wrote: »

This is the part that confuses me...if she's no longer ill, then what illness is she being treated for as a voluntary patient?
I'm assuming the reporting is confused, that she no longer meets the criteria for detention under the mental health act (thus cannot remain in cmh) rather than no longer disordered. I am speculating though.

I may be wrong but to be detained under the mental health acts you have to have a mental health issue and (the and is important) be a danger to yourself or others.

Starmixed · 07-07-2014 09:54PM

Candie wrote: »

No, she was tried according to her state of mind at the time of the crime. It's not unreasonable.

Please don't put words in my mouth, since I said nothing about sympathy or judgement. All I did was point out a relevent factor in infanticide figures. I made no judgement on men.

Save your rolleyes for something based in reality, not on your own assumptions.

So Pnd is a get out of jail free card?

Does women's life work like a monopoly game now?

Or more like a child playing with an adult where the adult lets the child win and get away with murder?

07-07-2014 09:59PM

Frito wrote: »

This is the part that confuses me...if she's no longer ill, then what illness is she being treated for as a voluntary patient?
I'm assuming the reporting is confused, that she no longer meets the criteria for detention under the mental health act (thus cannot remain in cmh) rather than no longer disordered. I am speculating though.

Yes, she must stay in treatment until her medical team consider her fit to leave. She can't just walk out unless she wants to be jailed, but neither does she make the criteria for an involuntary admission. So her sentence is suspended, provided she receives treatment.

The criteria to be held involuntarily is very specific.

Mr Justice Barry White imposed a seven-year suspended sentence, on an undertaking that she remains there until such time she is considered fit to return to the community.

marienbad · 07-07-2014 09:59PM

Starmixed wrote: »

And hence should be tried for murder most foul.

Would you have the same sympathy if I, (a man) was in a similar situation?

Of course a depressed man would receive the same sympathy . why would you think otherwise ?

hatrickpatrick · 07-07-2014 10:03PM

Candie wrote: »

Please don't put words in my mouth, since I said nothing about sympathy or judgement. All I did was point out a relevent factor in infanticide figures. I made no judgement on men.

Save your rolleyes for something based in reality, not on your own assumptions.

You said:

Candie wrote: »

They do not, however, give birth or become subject to the overwhelming hormonal upheaval that women do on becoming parents. It's not a straightforward comparison.

Implying that postpartum depression is worse or more of a legitimate excuse than the widespread depression men experience, and furthermore implied that men don't go through a hormonal upheaval after becoming parents, which I can demonstrate isn't true when I'm back home on my laptop (there was a study on this last year).

Furthermore, if we're going to go down the gender differences route, men are subject to societal expectations after having children which are different to those women experience and are also a legitimate cause of depression.

Now I'm in favour of treating men and women the same in a gender blind court system - you're the one who argued otherwise which is why I bring those up.

Judge gives mother, guilty of manslaughter, suspended sentence.

Comments