Megathread: Discussion on Vets and Juniors in the A3 category

not sane · 04-07-2014 09:25AM

Hmm interesting topic. I remember supervets, back when it was called the C cat (i.e. Seamus Kennedy, Sean Lally, Tosh Lavery to name a few) getting lots of wins etc and not getting upgraded. I never heard one complaint from other C (A3) riders. It was a case if you can't beat them then you will get your ass kicked in A1/A2 races.

RayCun · 04-07-2014 09:34AM

not sane wrote: »

Hmm interesting topic. I remember supervets, back when it was called the C cat (i.e. Seamus Kennedy, Sean Lally, Tosh Lavery to name a few) getting lots of wins etc and not getting upgraded. I never heard one complaint from other C (A3) riders. It was a case if you can't beat them then you will get your ass kicked in A1/A2 races.

The image that springs to mind is the boss at the end of a level in a computer game - you must defeat the SUPERVET before you may advance to the next stage.

But is that how the grading system is supposed to work? Is that what people are saying - that there should be a bottleneck in A3 preventing promotion to A2?

XtotheZ · 04-07-2014 09:40AM

a3 and dont care, I race to race not complain about geezers

Inquitus · 04-07-2014 09:44AM

RayCun wrote: »

The image that springs to mind is the boss at the end of a level in a computer game - you must defeat the SUPERVET before you may advance to the next stage.

But is that how the grading system is supposed to work? Is that what people are saying - that there should be a bottleneck in A3 preventing promotion to A2?

As someone said earlier in this thread or another Juniors and to a much lesser degree Supervets have hoovered up enough points to upgrade 75 riders to A2 so far this season, and that was a few weeks ago. That's not how a merit based upgrade system is supposed to work, it is supposed to produce 4 equal tranches of ability with upgrade from one meaning one should be able to hang in the pack in the next. What we are doing at the moment is creating an ever expanding A3 pack with limited upgrade opportunities. Again, the juniors and the failure to allocate points to the first 8 A3's across the line is more to blame then the Vets.

not sane · 04-07-2014 12:38PM

Agree totally about failure to allocate points to first A3's across the line than blame the juniors and vets. But I still believe if your not good enough to beat them your not good enough to race with the A1/A2's anyone who thinks otherwise is in cloud cuckoo land.

longshank · 04-07-2014 02:06PM

not sane wrote: »

Agree totally about failure to allocate points to first A3's across the line than blame the juniors and vets. But I still believe if your not good enough to beat them your not good enough to race with the A1/A2's anyone who thinks otherwise is in cloud cuckoo land.

Is part of the reason for that not because the A1/2 fields are so small only the fittest survive. When A3/2/1 together in so called handicap race or county provincial champs the A3s can survive?? If A2 peletons were bigger there might not be such a jump from A3 to A2?

Homer1798 · 04-07-2014 09:20PM

75 upgrades?? Not sure about that, that's 1125 points if each upgraded rider only got the bare minimum... OR the top 160+ riders in the A3 rankings all being either super vets or juniors, so where did the figure come from, made up? 1125 points is also 31 races being completely dominated by Juniors and Vets taking every point from first place to 8th ??? Maybe I'm missing something here or is this just some made up figure??

Inquitus · 05-07-2014 07:24AM

Homer1798 wrote: »

75 upgrades?? Not sure about that, that's 1125 points if each upgraded rider only got the bare minimum... OR the top 160+ riders in the A3 rankings all being either super vets or juniors, so where did the figure come from, made up? 1125 points is also 31 races being completely dominated by Juniors and Vets taking every point from first place to 8th ??? Maybe I'm missing something here or is this just some made up figure??

Just have a quick look through the Junior Rankings, excluding Supervets they have hoovered up @ 1000 points this season, enough to upgrade about 70 riders.

http://www.cyclingireland.ie/page/events/rider-rankings/junior1

Chips Lovell · 05-07-2014 08:18AM

Inquitus wrote: »

...they have hoovered up @ 1000 points this season, enough to upgrade about 70 riders.

This isn't an accurate assessment, because a good chunk of those points were won in mixed category races, where there was no guarantee than an A3 would have placed if the Juniors weren't there. In many instances the points would have more likely have gone to an A1 or A2.

Indeed, some of those points were won in races Juniors had a dispensation to ride in A1/A2 events, where it would have been impossible for an A3 to get points.

Homer1798 · 05-07-2014 02:11PM

So now were getting to the crux of it, Fortis initial post says the rules regarding vets was actively restricting A3's getting promoted to A2. I think now the problem appears to be that the juniors are "hoovering" up the points in the A3 category even allowing for the fact that many of these points were "won" in A1/A2 races, this fact is confirmed by the fact that Eddie Dunbar has earned more than 10% of the quoted 1000 points. So with this taken into account we could say juniors hav
e taken enough points in A3 to restrict 50 (and thats being extreamly generous) other riders upgrading while vets have restricted possibly 5!!!!!So yes Fortis yor are guilty of being a drama queen, it isn't the "few" vets that have actively restricted promotion but the fact that very telented juniors are not getting promoted to A2 under the present rules.

This presents another problem, is the 20 or so talented juniors were promoted to A2, and subsequently other A3's were getting the points and promoted to A3 would't those juniors still be beating them in this category and "hoovering" all the available points? which in turn means that under the current rules they would be back racing in A3 the following year racing the next generation of super vets and talented juniors?

The glaring problem in Irish cycling is the lack of points available to the the riders in the A2 category (total lack of A2 only races) and the reliance on stage races to obtain points. This will become glaringly obivious in2015 if the current points system is kept in place until then.

If there was a decent calendar of A2 events it would be easier to promote junior riders without the risk of burning them out and more "super" vets upgrading as they could still compete.

The points system in place at present does have anomilies but as it was voted in democratically it is the system that is in place. I do hope when Fortis is 50 he will reflect on this and perhaps share his thoughts with us then as regards how he feels about supervets.

fortis · 07-07-2014 04:09PM

Homer1798 wrote: »

So now were getting to the crux of it, Fortis initial post says the rules regarding vets was actively restricting A3's getting promoted to A2. I think now the problem appears to be that the juniors are "hoovering" up the points in the A3 category even allowing for the fact that many of these points were "won" in A1/A2 races, this fact is confirmed by the fact that Eddie Dunbar has earned more than 10% of the quoted 1000 points. So with this taken into account we could say juniors hav
e taken enough points in A3 to restrict 50 (and thats being extreamly generous) other riders upgrading while vets have restricted possibly 5!!!!!So yes Fortis yor are guilty of being a drama queen, it isn't the "few" vets that have actively restricted promotion but the fact that very telented juniors are not getting promoted to A2 under the present rules.

This presents another problem, is the 20 or so talented juniors were promoted to A2, and subsequently other A3's were getting the points and promoted to A3 would't those juniors still be beating them in this category and "hoovering" all the available points? which in turn means that under the current rules they would be back racing in A3 the following year racing the next generation of super vets and talented juniors?

The glaring problem in Irish cycling is the lack of points available to the the riders in the A2 category (total lack of A2 only races) and the reliance on stage races to obtain points. This will become glaringly obivious in2015 if the current points system is kept in place until then.

If there was a decent calendar of A2 events it would be easier to promote junior riders without the risk of burning them out and more "super" vets upgrading as they could still compete.

The points system in place at present does have anomilies but as it was voted in democratically it is the system that is in place. I do hope when Fortis is 50 he will reflect on this and perhaps share his thoughts with us then as regards how he feels about supervets.

As usual you miss the whole point of the discussion but there is no point arguing with you as you have a point of view and are sticking to it (fair enough we all have opinions and don't have to shout them from high, forums like this facilitate discussion not arguing hopefully!).

Rather than argue, how about present solutions (as I did in a earlier post)? You agree that the system has anomalies and is not working, but don't offer any alternative.

I take on board from Oscar that the points distribution calculated is not 100% accurate but if was not meant to be it was just a ballpark figure. But there is no doubt that Juniors and vets taking points without promotion is increasing the size of the A3 field. And the problem that needs to be solved is increasing the field sizes in higher cats so that viable races can be run. And that isn't helping.

Another potential solution would be to promote everyone in A3 with say >7 points to A2 for one year and see how they get on!

of course that wouldn't happen but I think something needs to be done to even the field sizes out.

Homer1798 · 08-07-2014 09:55PM

The point of the discussion as dictated by your first post was that the rules regarding grading were designed to actively restrict A3's being upgraded by allowing vets over 50 remain in the category and you implied that this was designed to "look after" certain vets!!, however it now appears that you are wrong in this instant and in fact the amount of vets with access points (over 15) which are points which would have gone to other non vet/junior A3's is less than 4. To say that this is what is restricting A3's progressing to A2 is wrong to say it's "actively restricting" their progression is being a little dramatic.

Looking at what information others have brought to the conversation it's clear that what is restricting A3's progressing is to some extent the amount of points juniors are "winning" in the category, however your first post omits this fact and fails to take it into account whatsoever!!!

If you want a solution I would suggest leaving the rules regards regrading vets as is as it does not affect the category to any great extent, but perhaps look at the junior category and promote them to A2 upon reaching say 25 points in A3, this would give them a little longer developing. With regards to running junior only races this is a no go as far as I'm concerned as the gulf of talent is in the category is as wide as A4 to A1.

While I understand that you would like to see a similar amount of riders in the A2 cat as there would be in A3 this should never happen as the higher up the categories you go the more elite it should be and therefore there should be less A2's than A3's. As I stated in an earlier post A3 is where most riders should be.

harringtonp · 09-07-2014 08:09AM

Homer1798 wrote: »

look at the junior category and promote them to A2 upon reaching say 25 points in A3, this would give them a little longer developing.

Wondered myself why a system such as this is not in place. This seems to make a lot of sense.

wav1 · 09-07-2014 08:18AM

harringtonp wrote: »

Wondered myself why a system such as this is not in place. This seems to make a lot of sense.

In one word.Protection.
They get enough chances to mix it with the A1s in the mixed/handicap races etc.We still want them performing when they are 21 and not just when they are 17/18

killalanerr · 09-07-2014 12:21PM

I have stayed out of this one because it just doesn't stand up.Out of my prier group of over 50s A3s the number among that group that could account of for 15 points over the season is so small that it would make no difference to any strong riders looking for an upgrade,
It is however time that the juniors were taken out of the A3 points system and given their own,let the comms earn their expenses

if this is done i might even pick up some points myself,that would give you something to complain about

Chips Lovell · 09-07-2014 01:02PM

harringtonp wrote: »

Wondered myself why a system such as this is not in place. This seems to make a lot of sense.

wav1 wrote: »

In one word.Protection.
They get enough chances to mix it with the A1s in the mixed/handicap races etc.We still want them performing when they are 21 and not just when they are 17/18

I'd agree. From listening to those looking after the Juniors at previous Cycling Ireland AGMs, the message I got was they wanted to have control over the number of top flight races they did. Instituting a system of promotion would remove that control.

JK.BMC · 09-03-2015 08:47PM

Mod Note: Following two posts have been moved from Newbridge GP thread

Arthurdaly wrote: »

I was pretty close to the crash in the A3 race yesterday. What happened was a rider coming up on the extreme right of the bunch where there was no room to move up. He was nearly in the grass and lost control of the bike, he wobbled into the guy on the left who then came shoulder to shoulder with the guy on his left. Guy in middle comes down first I think and takes down the riders behind.

That was a huge A3 bunch yesterday and was still a decent sized bunch at the finish which I think contributes to these situations. Normally on that course you wouldn't have a big bunch like that at the finish but there are no major selections due to the sheer size of the bunch. It was lining out towards the top of Dunmurry but most were getting back on the descent.

Surely there is a major problem with A3, juniors mopping up all the points, your average strong A3 not getting out of the cat due to this and numbers ballooning. It's the most active cat now.

Personally I don't buy the attitude of if you can't beat the juniors then you shouldn't get up to A2. At the very least I think juniors in development squads should not be riding at A3 level.

2 seperate issues: a)the A3 grade with Juniors and b)stupid antics in the large field A3 races.

I understand how the 2 issues are related but for the moment, the juniors are going nowhere and the issue has been debated to death here and elsewhere. Plus it is incorrect to think that removing the good junior riders will stop some spanner in 50th position with 1km to go charging like a rhino into the rest of us. I had drifted towards the rear on the final descent as with about 100 riders 'gruppo compacto' near the finish, about 80 of whom had not been in the wind all day, I reckoned a crash was inevitable.

Yesterday was the first time I felt that the field was actually too big, which is a shame as its a great circuit and the promoters and sponsors do a lot for bike racing every season. Not sure much can be done and to be fair, the bunch was well behaved in the circumstances, up to the finish.
Plenty of attacking and hard chasing too, but you can be sure there werent 80 sprinters who signed on either

Inquitus · 09-03-2015 10:02PM

JK.BMC wrote: »

2 seperate issues: a)the A3 grade with Juniors and b)stupid antics in the large field A3 races.

Award points to the first 8 A3's across the line, ignoring Supervets and Juniors. We need a vibrant A2 cat with it's own races, we need A3 -> A2 to be like A4 -> A3. Currently the majority of A2's are just getting flogged by the A1's week in, week out. How many times do we see the main men of the Irish scene 5 minutes or more up the road from a dejected looking bunch of A2's, we need to make A2 a cat in it's own right with its own races just like A3 and A4, and the current points structure prevents that.

Cond0r · 12-03-2015 10:24AM

Mod Note: This and next seven posts below moved from Des Hanlon 2015 thread.

bikenut74 wrote: »

Due to the improving Junior racing scene Carlow RCC propose to offer equal prize money for both A3 and Junior riders in this year's Des Hanlon race. While both categories will still race against each other and the first man home will be the champion there will be prizes for the first 6 A3 riders and the first 6 Junior riders. Maybe soon again the Junior category will be a stand alone race.

If only Cycling Ireland saw it this way. Points should be allocated in a similar fashion.

bikenut74 · 12-03-2015 10:47AM

Cond0r wrote: »

If only Cycling Ireland saw it this way. Points should be allocated in a similar fashion.

And no ex pros

Cond0r · 12-03-2015 10:49AM

bikenut74 wrote: »

And no ex pros

Well, at least in that situation the ex pro gets upgraded within a couple of races and that's fine. The problem with juniors (and also racers >50 (I think?) that opt to not be upgraded), is that they sweep up the points and don't get upgraded out of the category, even though they're clearly strong enough to compete at the higher level.

Lumen · 12-03-2015 10:54AM

Cond0r wrote: »

Well, at least in that situation the ex pro gets upgraded within a couple of races and that's fine. The problem with juniors (and also racers >50 (I think?) that opt to not be upgraded), is that they sweep up the points and don't get upgraded out of the category, even though they're clearly strong enough to compete at the higher level.

Because it's more embarrassing to be beaten by children?

bikenut74 · 12-03-2015 10:54AM

Cond0r wrote: »

Well, at least in that situation the ex pro gets upgraded within a couple of races and that's fine. The problem with juniors (and also racers >50 (I think?) that opt to not be upgraded), is that they sweep up the points and don't get upgraded out of the category, even though they're clearly strong enough to compete at the higher level.

With 140 signing on for the A3 junior race last Saturday in Clonard and I'd expect something similar in Carlow next week the time to split the categories is fast approaching for safety reasons if nothing else.

Cond0r · 12-03-2015 10:55AM

Lumen wrote: »

Because it's more embarrassing to be beaten by children?

I have no problem being beaten by the pros of the future at all. Once or twice, before they're upgraded to the category they should be in.

Chips Lovell · 12-03-2015 11:02AM

Here's a discussion that hasn't been had before.

Inquitus · 18-03-2015 09:17AM

Cond0r wrote: »

Well, at least in that situation the ex pro gets upgraded within a couple of races and that's fine. The problem with juniors (and also racers >50 (I think?) that opt to not be upgraded), is that they sweep up the points and don't get upgraded out of the category, even though they're clearly strong enough to compete at the higher level.

Cond0r is right, A3 is getting too big because alot of the points awarded each week count for nought, this means A2 remains too small to have races in its own right and A3 just keeps getting bigger. It is easily solved by awarding A3 points to the first 8 A3's across the line ignoring Juniors and Supervets. This would spark alot more upgrades to A2 and make running A2 only races move viable. The majority of A2's are just cannon fodder for the A1's and I can't imagine finishing in a dejected bunch 5 minutes or more behind the race is much fun week in week out.

smurphy29 · 18-03-2015 11:32AM

Inquitus wrote: »

Cond0r is right, A3 is getting too big because alot of the points awarded each week count for nought, this means A2 remains too small to have races in its own right and A3 just keeps getting bigger. It is easily solved by awarding A3 points to the first 8 A3's across the line ignoring Juniors and Supervets. This would spark alot more upgrades to A2 and make running A2 only races move viable. The majority of A2's are just cannon fodder for the A1's and I can't imagine finishing in a dejected bunch 5 minutes or more behind the race is much fun week in week out.

This argument gets trotted out every year but it's not quite correct. There are plenty of A2s and there could comfortably be A2-only races; it's the size of the A1 fields that would be the problem. Truth be told, points for unplaced A2s would be more worthy of discussion than points for unplaced A3s. Holders of each category of licence below:

A+/A1: 131 riders

A2: 206 riders

A3: 836 riders

A4: 1204 riders

Junior: 214 riders

It's a numbers issue with no one solution to keep everyone happy. Hopefully some day there will be enough juniors to have them in their own race, and separate A2 and A1 races, but we're not there yet.

I used to be in favour of unplaced points for A3 seniors, but I've swung the other way. I just don't see what everybody's rush is. If you can't get in the points in the A3 races, just keep trying and keep working. If you can't beat the juniors, you're not going to be competing in the A1/2 races, it's that simple. You have the option to upgrade at the end of the season if you think you're ready. What's the issue exactly?

Lumen · 18-03-2015 11:43AM

smurphy29 wrote: »

What's the issue exactly?

IMO the issue is that people don't like upgrading themselves to A2 as they feel it isn't deserved.

I think that misunderstands the purpose of the system of upgrades - it's not to reward good performance ('certificate of achievement' thinking), it's to prevent good riders from sandbagging/pot hunting for years at a level below which they're perfectly capable of riding.

Plastik · 18-03-2015 11:47AM

Lumen wrote: »

IMO the issue is that people don't like upgrading themselves to A2 as they feel it isn't deserved.

I think that misunderstands the purpose of the system of upgrades - it's not to reward good performance ('certificate of achievement' thinking), it's to prevent good riders from sandbagging/pot hunting for years at a level below which they're perfectly capable of riding.

Like the rider with that finished the season with 20 points in A1 but is back on an A3 licence again this year? :pac:

Beasty · 18-03-2015 11:55AM

smurphy29 wrote: »

Hopefully some day there will be enough juniors to have them in their own race

Isn't one of the arguments that it helps juniors if they are in these larger fields where there is more competition? In my view the system should be designed to accommodate them ahead of others as they are the future of the sport. If that means the rest of us have to fit around them that's absolutely fine with me (but equally I have no ambition of upgrading to A3 never mind A2!). If racers really do think they (the racers not the juniors!) "should" be in A2, they have been able to upgrade themselves in recent years (and I presume that option will continue to be available)

Megathread: Discussion on Vets and Juniors in the A3 category

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