Megathread: Discussion on Vets and Juniors in the A3 category

fortis

Mod Note:

Since it was one of the lengthier threads on this topic, we're repurposing this thread as a megathread for discussion of Juniors and Vets in A3. The megathread's been created to stop race threads from being cluttered up with off-topic airings of the issue.

This thread was originally entitled "SuperVets! Points and Promotion"



Relaise this is a long standing debate but I think events this year have pointed out that the current system is dysfunctional

Namely:

(b) Veteran riders in their 46th
to 49th
year and irrespective of their category may apply, on their first
licence application for the relevant licence year, for an A2 or A3 licence with zero points brought
forward. Such riders are subject to automatic upgrades during the licence year on reaching the
relevant points threshold.
(c) Veteran riders in their 50th
or greater year and irrespective of their category may apply, on their
first licence application for the relevant licence year, for an A2 or A3 licence with zero points
brought forward. Such riders are exempt from automatic upgrades during the licence year unless
requested by the rider on reaching the relevant points threshold.



It seems this rule was made up to suit a few individuals in particular (not naming names but most will recognize who they are) who are winning races consistently or placing. Examples can be provided if necessary. All of those that were promoted this year will be back in A3 again next year doing the same thing as the current rules allow (which were only implemented this year for the first time).

The system as it is is fair. You earn points through winning or placing in a race, you get upgraded on reaching 15. It's a system based on ability and merit and it's fair. The rules above circumvent that in favour of a few individuals.

If nothing else it is age discrimination.

The argument in favour of this is that older riders should not have to ride A1/2. The counter argument to that is that anyone who is capable of earning promotion in a season is capable of riding in a higher category! And has clearly demonstrated that by earning the promotion. Surely that's the way the system is structured! That's the way it works for everyone else.

Is it any wonder that the A3 (and also A4) ranks are massive while the upper ranks are tiny by comparison? Promotion is being actively blocked, both by this and by awarding junior riders points which also do not count towards promotion

I'm sure this will attract the usual debate.

wav1

FFS here we go again.

Inquitus

There's no denying that Supervets and Juniors are swelling the ranks of A3 by hoovering up alot of the points and making upgrading to A2 harder then it would otherwise be.

wirelessdude01

It really should be as simple as if your good enough to earn an upgrade, then you get upgraded.

Chips Lovell

Doesn't bother me. I'm riding A3 and haven't really seen much of vets hoovering up results. The good ones tend to move up when they get the points.

I do think it's fair enough that someone aged over 50 not be forced to ride A1/A2 races if they don't want to. Expecting older riders to survive in elite races because they can get a few results in A3 is classic Peter Principle in action.

Juniors racking up results is more prevalent, but CI have said it's technically unfeasible to separate out Juniors and Seniors for points purposes, so there's not too much we can do about that right now. I do feel that situation might be temporary, since smartphone and tablet apps may replace expensive finish line cameras. And if the ranks of Juniors continue to swell, they may soon have their own races.

Anyway, all of this is a bit of a non-issue since nobody really is being blocked from moving up to A2. For the last few years you could apply for an A2 licence if you wanted one and even before that, you'd usually get one if you asked for one.

lennymc

If a rider cant get points against juniors and vets they sure as hell wont have an easy time in A2. If they really want to get to A2, they can self upgrade at the start of the year. There really is no problem here.

mark kiernan

jaysus dont take the prizes from the grumpy old men
sure there pensions are worthless these days

fortis

I think the original point has gotten a bit lost. Getting to a2 wasn't the point, its implementing a fair points system, that's the point.

Its quite simple, if anyone regardless of age is capable of getting promoted (not to mind actually winning a race) then they should be. That's demonstrating ability irrespective of age.

Exceptions to this are implemented only to suit a few. <snip>

Beasty

fortis wrote: »

Exceptions to this are implemented only to suit a few. <snip>

If you have a complaint to make about this contact CI - do not make unsubstantiated allegations on this site

manwithaplan

Oscar Gateaux wrote: »

I'm riding A3 and haven't really seen much of vets hoovering up results.

I'm trying my best but my hoover is on the blink.

fortis

Quick on the draw there to censor! Seems a nerve was touched. Only stating the obvious the results are there for all to see so no need for the censorship.

The agm is place to bring it up I'll agree. I don't have a personal beef with anyone just want to see a fair system in place.

rigal

I disagree.

The more older/experienced riders we have in A3 the better. Most A3s who have only been racing for a few years, myself included, might not like to admit it to ourselves but we're not that different to A4s when it comes to race savvy etc. We're just thinner, fitter and complain slightly less. Having riders in our bunch who have raced for many years and set a good example can only be a good thing for the general development of A3 riders and juniors.

fortis

That also misses the point. The point is not to exclude anyone but to treat them the same.

wav1

OK I've read enough
FACT these changes were brought to CI agm last yr by a grading review committee made up of very respected cycling people.All passed at agm and not one dissenting voice.BTW theres where you go to have a meaningful moan.As this appears to be a witch hunt against one guy please note it is fact that a committee signed off on these changes which I think is very fair.No 50 plus rider should be made ride elite events against riders preparing for ras etc.
Brilliant example y/day where another of our 50 plus guys won the A3 race in Roscommon.Delighted for him TBH.Under last yrs system he would have woken up this morning with an upgrade and racing career probably over.I seen the same guy get dropped on a climb just a week ago by the A3s.So now,he can continue and you know some day he just might have his day in the sun again.And thats thanks to a little progressive thought that went in to the process,ie fairness for all,and no it wasn't the 54 yr old cyclist/grading officer who made the changes.Our working group did,and I for one am very glad about that today as our winner from yesterday will continue to grace the A3 peloton and not become an ex racing cyclist.Sometimes people get far too carried away with things.Its all about being inclusive for all.If you have a problem with one guy,go and beat him on the road where it matters,and not on a forum where he cant get your wheel.

Inquitus

wav1 wrote: »

OK I've read enough
FACT these changes were brought to CI agm last yr by a grading review committee made up of very respected cycling people.All passed at agm and not one dissenting voice.BTW theres where you go to have a meaningful moan.As this appears to be a witch hunt against one guy please note it is fact that a committee signed off on these changes which I think is very fair.No 50 plus rider should be made ride elite events against riders preparing for ras etc.
Brilliant example y/day where another of our 50 plus guys won the A3 race in Roscommon.Delighted for him TBH.Under last yrs system he would have woken up this morning with an upgrade and racing career probably over.I seen the same guy get dropped on a climb just a week ago by the A3s.So now,he can continue and you know some day he just might have his day in the sun again.And thats thanks to a little progressive thought that went in to the process,ie fairness for all,and no it wasn't the 54 yr old cyclist/grading officer who made the changes.Our working group did,and I for one am very glad about that today as our winner from yesterday will continue to grace the A3 peloton and not become an ex racing cyclist.Sometimes people get far too carried away with things.Its all about being inclusive for all.If you have a problem with one guy,go and beat him on the road where it matters,and not on a forum where he cant get your wheel.

The dude who won the event in Roscommon is a long way short of an upgrade, 8 of 15 points so far, I understand the sentiment, but the facts are a bit off.

buffalo

Would a compromise be that Vets get awarded half-points? So only the very, very best get moved up?

Or given that they can downgrade every year, I don't really see the issue with awarding them normal points and upgrades. It gives them the chance for their day in the sun anew each season.

wav1

Inquitus wrote: »

The dude who won the event in Roscommon is a long way short of an upgrade, 8 of 15 points so far, I understand the sentiment, but the facts are a bit off.

Possibly facts are off,but you know what I mean.If he has only 8 points then he got them all y/day,but the same guy had about 12 pts all last yr and he lived on the edge for the whole season.

rigal

Inquitus wrote: »

The dude who won the event in Roscommon is a long way short of an upgrade, 8 of 15 points so far, I understand the sentiment, but the facts are a bit off.

The facts are not really that off. He was upgraded to A2 last year so without the ruling I see no reason why it wouldn't have happened again.

wav1

buffalo wrote: »

Would a compromise be that Vets get awarded half-points? So only the very, very best get moved up?

Or gi ven that they can downgrade every year, I don't really see the issue with awarding them normal points and upgrades. It gives them the chance for their day in the sun anew each season.

What happens to a 55 yr old rider who gets upgraded by the end of March?Hang it up for 11 months or go kill yourself with 20 something yrs old who possibly'probably are full timers.I see no reason at all why guys in their twentys shouldn't be beating these guys 99% of the time.

Inquitus

rigal wrote: »

The facts are not really that off. He was upgraded to A2 last year so without the ruling I see no reason why it wouldn't have happened again.

I don't see why he should not get upgraded again tbh, he can always downgrade at the end of the year as Buffalo says above. If you are 30, 40 or 50 and good enough why shouldn't upgrades apply? and if Vets can downgrade annually they are safe from being stuck in too high a grade.

Beasty

buffalo wrote: »

Would a compromise be that Vets get awarded half-points? So only the very, very best get moved up?

:eek: Age discrimnation!!! - I feel I should write a letter to the Times about this:D

ragazzo

Inquitus wrote: »

I don't see why he should not get upgraded again tbh, he can always downgrade at the end of the year as Buffalo says above. If you are 30, 40 or 50 and good enough why shouldn't upgrades apply? and if Vets can downgrade annually they are safe from being stuck in too high a grade.

I think all vets and juniors should be immediately reclassified as A1 riders. It is only fair. They win all the races and never share the ranking points with the ordinary decent A3's.
How do you expect real A3's to earn upgrades when those nasty vets and juniors hang around year in year out. Juniors are the worst as they keep sending in fresh recruits. It is just not fair. The real A3 riders who deserve upgrades are stuck in A3 because children and old men will not let them win. It is just not fair. Boohoo boohoo.

This forum would be very quiet if that happened. No vets or juniors to whinge about. Within a few years everyone would be A1. We could start our own pro teams then as we would all be superstars. If only we could get rid of the vets and juniors. Who do they think they are. Winning all the time and denying real men upgrades. I could have been a pro!

fixie fox

wav1 wrote: »

What happens to a 55 yr old rider who gets upgraded by the end of March?Hang it up for 11 months or go kill yourself with 20 something yrs old

What about the over 60s?
Over 50s have the option of downgrading to A3 but over 60s don't have the equivalent option to downgrade to A4 - they are stuck at A3 forever (as far as I understand it).

buffalo

wav1 wrote: »

What happens to a 55 yr old rider who gets upgraded by the end of March?Hang it up for 11 months or go kill yourself with 20 something yrs old who possibly'probably are full timers.I see no reason at all why guys in their twentys shouldn't be beating these guys 99% of the time.

I got promoted to A1, and have to compete against former (and current!) pros and full time riders, as well as riders who are just really, really, really good! They beat me 99%* of the time... can I stay in A2 or A3 please?

The above is facetious obviously, but I'm puzzled as to why a handicapping system which is apparently fair to all has to have such a large exception for older riders. At the end of this full season as an A1, when I inevitably fail to score any points, I'll downgrade to A2. Next season, if I end up in A1 by the end of March, I'll take that as a great indication of my ability, and see where I go from there. It'll be a tough season, but I won't have gotten 15 points on sheer fluke.

Likewise, if some vet is good enough to be upgraded from A3 by the end of March, I say fair play and well done to him or her! Clearly they're well able for racing (after all, they beat the dreaded juniors! :pac:), and indeed, they still have their choice of stage races. Worst case scenario, they spend their summer months racing in the vets' and masters events, before returning to their winning ways the following year.


*100%

wav1

fixie fox wrote: »

What about the over 60s?
Over 50s have the option of downgrading to A3 but over 60s don't have the equivalent option to downgrade to A4 - they are stuck at A3 forever (as far as I understand it).

Not quite sure about this one TBH.I would think if they were a pointless A3 a case could be made for a downgrade,If not its getting closer to agm time again and would have my support

wav1

o

buffalo wrote: »

I got promoted to A1, and have to compete against former (and current!) pros and full time riders, as well as riders who are just really, really, really good! They beat me 99%* of the time... can I stay in A2 or A3 please?

The above is facetious obviously, but I'm puzzled as to why a handicapping system which is apparently fair to all has to have such a large exception for older riders. At the end of this season, when I inevitably fail to score any points, I'll downgrade to A2. Next season, if I end up in A1 by the end of March, I'll take that as a great indication of my ability, and see where I go from there. It'll be a tough season, but I won't have gotten 15 points on sheer fluke.

Likewise, if some vet is good enough to be upgraded from A3 by the end of March, I say fair play and well done to him or her! Clearly they're well able for racing (after all, they beat the dreaded juniors! :pac:), and indeed, they still have their choice of stage races. Worst case scenario, they spend their summer months racing in the vets' and masters events, before returning to their winning ways the following year.


*100%

Real problem is that an upgrade from A3 for our ''last of the summer wine''guys is really an upgrade to A1,because of the lack of A2 specific races with a few exceptions.If there were A races every week I wouldn't really have a problem with it.You say you're downgrading but bar an odd stage race you're really not

buffalo

wav1 wrote: »

o
Real problem is that an upgrade from A3 for our ''last of the summer wine''guys is really an upgrade to A1,because of the lack of A2 specific races with a few exceptions.If there were A races every week I wouldn't really have a problem with it.You say you're downgrading but bar an odd stage race you're really not

Ah, have we hit upon the nub of the issue, which is that apart from stage races and the Christy McManus et al, A2 is just a hare category for the A1s? edit: or indeed, most of the time, A1 fodder.

I imagine it's more than the vets that have a problem with that!

wav1

buffalo wrote: »

Ah, have we hit upon the nub of the issue, which is that apart from stage races and the Christy McManus et al, A2 is just a hare cat for the A1s?

I imagine it's more than the vets that have a problem with that!

I'd agree that is def a huge part of the problem,ie no A2 specific races.I don't think any of the 50 plus riders would have a problem riding these as in A2/A3/Jun stage races its usually the vets and juniors who do best.Most A2s would be on a par with good A3s IMO.

dave_o_brien

In principle, I have no issue with Vet's/Juniors being automatic A3's. It makes sense: they're either aging or developing.

What I don't understand in your thread of logic is that it is unfair to promote a Vet to A2 because of the lack of A2 specific events. The Veteran who has proved himself good enough shouldn't be forced to race the A1's. Why is that not the case for the rest of the senior A3's who earn enough points?

Again, I support the status of Vet's/Juniors, and think CI has been very smart about (for example) Dunbar, O'Brien, Shanahan, et al.

fortis

wav1 wrote: »

OK I
Brilliant example y/day where another of our 50 plus guys won the A3 race in Roscommon.Delighted for him TBH.Under last yrs system he would have woken up this morning with an upgrade and racing career probably over.

That kind of sums up the attitude of people who defend not having a straightforward points system and logical promotion. "I'm alright jack"!

Tell me how would his racing "career" be over! Did he fall? Did he break something? Is he not capable of mounting a bike the following week and doing it again?

Many here have pointed out that it's not a "witch hunt" or anything to do with age but more with ability. Anyone who has won a race has show they have ability. You don't win an A3 race by fluke.

I also agree with the sentiment on Juniors, they are not all created the same and you see many of them struggling in A3 races (again in no small part because the A3 cat is not a true reflection of A3 standard when people who are winning week in week out remain unpromoted, or drop back from higher cat's every year), but those that are (like the brilliant ED) are then moved up later in the year at CI's discretion.

Those that are struggling a bit however are surely none too impressed with the current setup either and are likely to become disillusioned.

If the problem is numbers in A2 (it clearly is, but part of the reason for that problem is that promotions out of A3 are not happening with the frequency they should be) perhaps an alternative for one year would be to move anyone in A3 with 8-10+ points up to A2 for next year (no exceptions). That would ensure a much bigger bunch in A2 and with a bigger bunch and more involved it should make the racing more interesting and "easier". The A3 category would still be plenty big.
Anyone who doesn't score an A2 point is allowed to downgrade the following year.

I wasn't at the Roscommon race you refer to, but I heard the A1/2 race consisted of about 20 riders. That's not a race. Something needs to be done.

Plastik

I think that any rider that earns an upgrade during the calender year and then immediately downgrades again over the winter for no other reason than they're a little older and it's a little harder just comes out of it looking like an idiot. I have no respect for them what so ever.

They can keep taking points, primes and cash prizes in A3 races from myself and others - I don't care, I'm in it for the fun - but I'll never clap or congratulate them. They're the ultimate sandbagger. By continuing to do it they simply reduce the stock of all they achieved in the past in my eyes. It's certainly all I'll remember them for.

Chips Lovell

fortis wrote: »

Getting to a2 wasn't the point, its implementing a fair points system, that's the point.

The only purpose of the points system outside of A1, where it does operate as some sort of de facto national ranking, is determining who should go up or down. If all vets got promoted, then the top ranked A3 riders at the end of the year would be everyone who finished on 14 points.

fortis

Oscar Gateaux wrote: »

The only purpose of the points system outside of A1, where it does operate as some sort of de facto national ranking, is determining who should go up or down. If all vets got promoted, then the top ranked A3 riders at the end of the year would be everyone who finished on 14 points.

I don't understand what point you are making there tbh

Anyways not all vet riders would get promoted. Only the ones who earn 15 points! The same as anyone else.

So yea I agree, the only purpose of the points system is to determine who goes up/down. Same as any points system in any sport. That's not happening at the moment however.

On a thread of what I was saying earlier, if you looked at the current rankings, if you moved everyone on 8 points or more up to A3, that would be 64 riders. Out of 1093 that hold an A3 license! If you took the cutoff point at 5 points that would be 142. SO not huge number, but enough to make a small difference in A2

And actually just looking at the table makes you realise how big a problem it is. There are actually only 300 riders with any kind of points at all. It makes you realise that the chance of naturally moving any sizeable number up to the next category is minimal. Especially when the current convoluted system means the same guys can keep gathering points at the top. There is no trickle down effect at all. Well very little.

Chips Lovell

You're the one who said that upgrades to A2 aren't the issue. So if upgrades aren't the issue, what is?

fortis

Oscar Gateaux wrote: »

You're the one who said that upgrades to A2 aren't the issue. So if upgrades aren't the issue, what is?

I Think it's pretty clear what the issue is (and I don't recall saying that upgrades to A2 aren't an issue) namely

"So yea I agree, the only purpose of the points system is to determine who goes up/down. Same as any points system in any sport. That's not happening at the moment however."

I don't think any self respecting decent cyclist would have a problem with being promoted to a higher category upon reaching the threshold. But some do.

But anyways as plastik said, anyone who has a problem with that or who drops back from a higher cat over the winter just because they can because of some convoluted rule is a little pathetic. Most everyone knows who they are at this stage. They are not covering themselves in glory. Maybe in their own eyes.

Chips Lovell

fortis wrote: »

Getting to a2 wasn't the point

fortis wrote: »

..and I don't recall saying that upgrades to A2 aren't an issue

Now I'm confused.

fortis

lennymc made the following point after my initial post:

"If a rider cant get points against juniors and vets they sure as hell wont have an easy time in A2. If they really want to get to A2, they can self upgrade at the start of the year. There really is no problem here."

To which I replied that getting to a2, wasn't actually the point (of the post, initially), The original point was that the system should be fair and the same for all. It was up to this year. It's not now.

But anyway there isn't much point in tit for tat on individual language. I think Plastik kind of summed up the way I feel about it and probably a good few others judging by some of the other comments posted here namely:

"I think that any rider that earns an upgrade during the calender year and then immediately downgrades again over the winter for no other reason than they're a little older and it's a little harder just comes out of it looking like an idiot. I have no respect for them what so ever."

And I would add that someone who doesn't take an automatic upgrade on reaching the threshold is the same. It's pretty pathetic. But sur if that's what keeps em happy..!

Chips Lovell

Actually, I'd disagree with Lenny's point to a certain extent. I've seen plenty of fellas upgrading themselves from A3 and they've done just fine in A2, gotten around the Rás etc. I even know a few who've bumped themselves up from A4 to A2 over the course of a two or three seasons, again without issue. The converse is also true. I've seen some guys, especially older ones, get results in A3 but get annihilated in A1/A2 races.

People do reach an ages where they'd still have the racecraft to position themselves well lower category races but wouldn't have the legs any more to survive with the big guns.

I think 50 is a reasonable cut-off point. It's a bit unfair to force fellas who are old enough to be my Da into A1/A2 races.

fortis

Just as an FYI

Here is the system in Britain. Similar but in certain aspects very different

britishcycling.org.uk/zuvvi/media/bc_files/rulebook/2014__Rulebook_-_05-GENERAL_ROAD_TRACK.pdf

Pages 51-53 are the relevant pages

There are no exception made on basis of age (except for juniors) though people are classified accordingly. They count back to 20 places in bigger races, 10 in smaller events. The number of points awarded varies according to the type of event. Promotions are automatic. They have the same number of categories (plus an elite)

Seems to be working for them

ragazzo

fortis wrote: »

That kind of sums up the attitude of people who defend not having a straightforward points system and logical promotion. "I'm alright jack"!

Tell me how would his racing "career" be over! Did he fall? Did he break something? Is he not capable of mounting a bike the following week and doing it again?

Many here have pointed out that it's not a "witch hunt" or anything to do with age but more with ability. Anyone who has won a race has show they have ability. You don't win an A3 race by fluke.

I also agree with the sentiment on Juniors, they are not all created the same and you see many of them struggling in A3 races (again in no small part because the A3 cat is not a true reflection of A3 standard when people who are winning week in week out remain unpromoted, or drop back from higher cat's every year), but those that are (like the brilliant ED) are then moved up later in the year at CI's discretion.

Those that are struggling a bit however are surely none too impressed with the current setup either and are likely to become disillusioned.

If the problem is numbers in A2 (it clearly is, but part of the reason for that problem is that promotions out of A3 are not happening with the frequency they should be) perhaps an alternative for one year would be to move anyone in A3 with 8-10+ points up to A2 for next year (no exceptions). That would ensure a much bigger bunch in A2 and with a bigger bunch and more involved it should make the racing more interesting and "easier". The A3 category would still be plenty big.
Anyone who doesn't score an A2 point is allowed to downgrade the following year.

I wasn't at the Roscommon race you refer to, but I heard the A1/2 race consisted of about 20 riders. That's not a race. Something needs to be done.

I am almost sure this is a repeat of a thread started by fortis earlier this year or last year. Maybe I am imagining it but the posts read very familiar.

The problem then and now is that there are not enough racing A1's. As a result the A1/A2 categories are usually raced together.
The A2 category is generally a play category for the A1's benefit.

There are more than enough A2's to hold stand alone races for this category. If this happened the resulting upgrades would boost numbers in the problematic A1 category. ( where vets regularly dominate the results)
A2's would have a racing schedule that they could cope with and the better ones would earn upgrades as the season progressed thus aiding their transition to A1 racing and also boosting the numbers in A1.
Upgrades from A3 would replenish numbers in the A2 category.

The problem for organisers is that holding a race for 20ish A1 riders is not feasible and therefore they are allowed ride the A2 event.

Castigating or slagging off any vet who decides not to avail of an upgrade to A1 is ignorant and shortsighted and illustrates a complete lack of understanding of our sport versus real life.
There are many reasons why a vet might make this decision. These vets have usually raced at A1 level for many years in the past. They are not stupid people and realise that their current ability would not allow them to race competitively at the higher level. Home/work life could be interfering with time available for training. Some of them may be aiding new team mates by riding in the lower categories.

Have any of the posters who are unhappy with decisions made regarding riders personal upgrades/downgrades ever raced at A1 or similar level?

I doubt it because that racing would have opened your minds as well as your holes and you would not be so quick to condemn from the sidelines.

Learn from these guys and be happy that they continue to race albeit in a lower category. Watch their racing style and their moves and they may even help you towards that desired upgrade.

It should be an honour to have the opportunity to race with and learn from guys who have such palmares and experience.
It is sad that it leads to nothing more than bitching sessions.

fortis

First off this isn't a repeat of a thread that I started . I did post a few time to a thread (started by someone else) on the Des Hanlon earlier in the year.

That time it was about Junior riders taking the points in A3 cat (which is also an issue that CI have flagged they are unable/unwilling to resolve). In particular at the time ED was regularly riding away on his own and winning races with a 5-10 minute margin
Since then at least the foolishness of that has been realised and Eddie now races with the A2/1's And holds his own no bother. Again his presence at the time was distorting the racing for others.

You speak from a pretty lofty perch there on home/work life balance - like nobody in lower categories has those problems or has experienced them. Those problems exist for most everyone in amateur sport. At all levels. The barriers to entry timewise are less of course the lower the category but they still exist.

So it is fair in your mind that someone can get promoted from A3 in one season, earn points in A2/1 also in the same season (which negates your comment that they wouldn't be competitive at the higher level) and then drop back immediately again in the next season and do the same thing again?
That's fair is it? That's what's happening now. Has happened. Will happen next year.

And yes, if doing (well participating in) likes of Ras Mumhain, Suir Valley is classified as "A1" racing then yes. And yes it's bloody hard. Nobody is expecting an easy ride at a higher level. Progression is part of any sport. People learn from moving up through the ranks, not by having the ranks moving down to murder them!

And that whole thing about plamares. Please. Like Plastik said of those dropping back:

"They're the ultimate sandbagger. By continuing to do it they simply reduce the stock of all they achieved in the past in my eyes. It's certainly all I'll remember them for."

I have no respect for them either for the same reason.

I agree wholehearteadly with you by the way on the numbers thing. It is an issue of numbers. This way of working isn't helping that in any way however.

Chips Lovell

Nothing has changed with regard to Juniors. They are still given leave to ride some A1/A2 races. That was the situation before the Des Hanlon Memorial and it's still the situation now.

fortis

Yes that's true I know. But they could have technically left him ride A3 events for the rest of the year though (as he is entitled to do). They realised this was silly however given how good he is (and Eddie himself probably did also I'm sure)

Fair play to him hope he does well during the summer abroad

Chips Lovell

I think you may be misunderstanding how that system works. You seem to think they made a mistake by having stronger juniors race A3 at the start of the year and their racing a top flight races later on is an acknowledgement of a mistake.

ragazzo

fortis wrote: »

First off this isn't a repeat of a thread that I started . I did post a few time to a thread (started by someone else) on the Des Hanlon earlier in the year.

That time it was about Junior riders taking the points in A3 cat (which is also an issue that CI have flagged they are unable/unwilling to resolve). In particular at the time ED was regularly riding away on his own and winning races with a 5-10 minute margin
Since then at least the foolishness of that has been realised and Eddie now races with the A2/1's And holds his own no bother. Again his presence at the time was distorting the racing for others.

You speak from a pretty lofty perch there on home/work life balance - like nobody in lower categories has those problems or has experienced them. Those problems exist for most everyone in amateur sport. At all levels. The barriers to entry timewise are less of course the lower the category but they still exist.

So it is fair in your mind that someone can get promoted from A3 in one season, earn points in A2/1 also in the same season (which negates your comment that they wouldn't be competitive at the higher level) and then drop back immediately again in the next season and do the same thing again?
That's fair is it? That's what's happening now. Has happened. Will happen next year.

And yes, if doing (well participating in) likes of Ras Mumhain, Suir Valley is classified as "A1" racing then yes. And yes it's bloody hard. Nobody is expecting an easy ride at a higher level. Progression is part of any sport. People learn from moving up through the ranks, not by having the ranks moving down to murder them!

And that whole thing about plamares. Please. Like Plastik said of those dropping back:

"They're the ultimate sandbagger. By continuing to do it they simply reduce the stock of all they achieved in the past in my eyes. It's certainly all I'll remember them for."

I have no respect for them either for the same reason.

I agree wholehearteadly with you by the way on the numbers thing. It is an issue of numbers. This way of working isn't helping that in any way however.

My perch may be lofty but the fact remains.
Many riders can get around A3 and A4 races with little training. Experience alone will bring you to the finish line in the majority, though not all, of these races.
At the highest level this is not possible. Even with hard training the body of an older person does not act the same as in their younger years. Recuperation also takes much longer.
It is better to have these guys involved in racing rather than some other option.
You are entitled to your opinion but it seems rather self serving and just sounds like a whinge. You are also entitled to whinge but it sounds a bit old at this stage. Whoops, I almost slipped off my lofty perch! One of those vets greased it. Sandbaggers!

The reference to palmares/experience was in relation to the learning curve of newer riders. These old vets are the ones to watch and learn from. That seems to be beyond your level of comprehension but hopefully someday you will arise from your slumber.

I doubt if these vets are pothunters as you seem to be implying. Most of them have won many big races (palmares) and are probably racing now at a level that suits them rather than risking health damage at the A1 level. A 50+ rider with a lack of training being forced to race at a level beyond his current ability could have unnecessary consequences.
That might keep your insatiable desire for ranking points satisfied but would be ultimately detrimental to riders health and the progression of our sport.

The problem remains the lack of racing riders at A1 level. Start from that point and progress will be made.

buffalo

ragazzo wrote: »

A 50+ rider with a lack of training being forced to race at a level beyond his current ability could have unnecessary consequences.

I don't think anyone is suggesting all vets should be forced to race A1. This idea that it's beyond the ability of every old fogey to compete with any A2 rider is frankly ageist tbh, and shouldn't be tolerated. I think what fortis is suggesting is that the 50+yo riders who have shown that racing beyond A3 is within his/her ability, should not be in A3 if they earn their points.

Your earlier post raises a lot of strawmen that I'm not that bothered to respond to, but I still fail to see why the excuse that "Home/work life could be interfering with time available for training" is only valid for vets, and not for the rest of the riders.

And yes, I've raced A1, and had my hole opened a few times. It's one of the reasons I "realise that [my] current ability would not allow [me] to race competitively at the higher level". But here I am, still in A1.

ragazzo

buffalo wrote: »

I don't think anyone is suggesting all vets should be forced to race A1. This idea that it's beyond the ability of every old fogey to compete with any A2 rider is frankly ageist tbh, and shouldn't be tolerated. I think what fortis is suggesting is that the 50+yo riders who have shown that racing beyond A3 is within his/her ability, should not be in A3 if they earn their points.

Your earlier post raises a lot of strawmen that I'm not that bothered to respond to, but I still fail to see why the excuse that "Home/work life could be interfering with time available for training" is only valid for vets, and not for the rest of the riders.

And yes, I've raced A1, and had my hole opened a few times. It's one of the reasons I "realise that [my] current ability would not allow [me] to race competitively at the higher level". But here I am, still in A1.

I am sure that many riders over the years have found themselves in your predicament. Obtaining upgrades and unable to race at the upgraded level. Being found out in a way. Or maybe my 'strawmen' formerly raised might help to explain situations like this.

The vets at the centre of this discussion probably had rough seasons at Category 1 level over the years but struggled on regardless.
Now there is a rule which caters towards advanced age. It is like a pension. You reach a certain age and people offer to help you cross the road.
These guys are still kicking your asses and you find it difficult to accept.

Solution: train/ race smarter or make some extra sacrifices with your lifestyle or request a downgrade from the grading officer.

Problem solved.

Inquitus

ragazzo wrote: »

I am sure that many riders over the years have found themselves in your predicament. Obtaining upgrades and unable to race at the upgraded level. Being found out in a way. Or maybe my 'strawmen' formerly raised might help to explain situations like this.

The vets at the centre of this discussion probably had rough seasons at Category 1 level over the years but struggled on regardless.
Now there is a rule which caters towards advanced age. It is like a pension. You reach a certain age and people offer to help you cross the road.
These guys are still kicking your asses and you find it difficult to accept.

Solution: train/ race smarter or make some extra sacrifices with your lifestyle or request a downgrade from the grading officer.

Problem solved.

This is nonsense, the upgrade system is meritocratic, if you score enough points you are deemed good enough to race at the next level. I don't see how age has anything to do with that. These "Supervets" can then downgrade themselves each off season, so if age does catch up with them they will remain in A3 if they can't score enough points in any given period to get upgraded, and if they keep winning then they should keep getting upgraded.

buffalo

ragazzo wrote: »

Solution: train/ race smarter or make some extra sacrifices with your lifestyle or request a downgrade from the grading officer.

Problem solved.

Why isn't this a solution for the vets?

ragazzo

buffalo wrote: »

Why isn't this a solution for the vets?

It is a solution for the vets. Is that not the whole basis for this rant.
Some posters do not like the solution.

Chips Lovell

I think someone in their 20s and 30s would have some chance of training themselves into shape if they find themselves out of their depth in the category they're racing in.

Less so with someone in their 50s.