Can we kill Irish once and for all

Grayditch · 04-07-2014 10:45AM

For me it's not about how it will come into use in later life, it's preserving something that is in danger of dying off. I'm far from being patriotic or any of that sh1te, but I think it's great that we have our own language. It's something I've always thought was something to be proud of.

A lot of people in different countries are surprised to hear we have our own language and always seem to compliment it when you give them a ...bad.. drunken sample.

I think it's cool anyway and I'm glad I was made to learn it.

Dan_Solo · 04-07-2014 10:46AM

Grayditch wrote: »

For me it's not about how it will come into use in later life, it's preserving something that is in danger of dying off. I'm far from being patriotic or any of that sh1te, but I think it's great that we have our own language. It's something I've always thought was something to be proud of.

Then you are free to learn it and use it to your heart's content.
Now, what has this to do with it being mandatory across state schools, in the constitution etc?

Dan_Solo · 04-07-2014 10:49AM

kylith wrote: »

No-one speaks it because it's not taught properly. Honestly, 16 years of a language and all most people can do is ask to go to the toilet.

This is rubbish. Most people remember about as much Irish as they do trigonometry or any other things they have zero use for once school is finished. Why would Irish be any different?

TimeToShine · 04-07-2014 10:54AM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

This is rubbish. Most people remember about as much Irish as they do trigonometry or any other things they have zero use for once school is finished. Why would Irish be any different?

Strangely I was more fluent in French after 5 years than I was in Irish in 13. I only dropped to OL in the latter about 2 months before the LC.

I didn't like Irish and I am in favour of it being optional but I don't want it to die. The course needs revision though. HL Irish nowadays consists of people swapping "A1" essays and rote learning them - whatever topic comes up you spoof your first paragraph to fit one of these templates and you're off. Same goes for poetry - wrote learning and cramming of what is most likely someone else's essays. In fact, I would argue it's probably the biggest joke of a subject for the old regurgitation method. Cram it all in a few weeks, spit it out on paper and forget about it.

Grayditch · 04-07-2014 11:00AM

I'd go for optional if I didn't think it would die off. So... mandatory.

shane7218 · 04-07-2014 11:02AM

Grayditch wrote: »

I'd go for optional if I didn't think it would die off. So... mandatory.

So just because we dont want a useless language to die off we should force everyone to learn it and then at the end have no use for it and not be able to speak it ?

Grayditch · 04-07-2014 11:03AM

Yep.

TimeToShine · 04-07-2014 11:04AM

Grayditch wrote: »

I'd go for optional if I didn't think it would die off. So... mandatory.

I doubt it would die off. It's still easy points for anyone who is semi-inclined towards languages as opposed to the sciences - I just think the OL classes will be significantly smaller, and TBH they have no real relevance to the language's survival.

shane7218 · 04-07-2014 11:10AM

Grayditch wrote: »

Yep.

Great logic :rolleyes:

Grayson · 04-07-2014 11:12AM

Grayditch wrote: »

I still think it should be mandatory. It'll die if it's not and that would be a shame.

Jesus how lazy are people, it's not even that hard to learn.

I will have three degrees when i get my masters at the end of this month. I'm hardly lazy. Laziness has nothing to do with people not wanting to learn it.

Most people feel as much connection to the language as they do to Hindi or Polish. there's no desire to learn a language they'll never use.

When I finish my studies this year I'll take a few months off and then start on another masters in sept. I could take a course in a language but if I do it won't be Irish. It'll be either a European language or possibly Chinese.

I understand that some people feel a connection to the Irish language, but they need to understand that most people don't. Trying to make people like it is like trying to make a girl like your mate who makes strange noises and smells a bit of old milk. I'm sure he's endearing and would make a great BF, but she's not really interesting and will never see him the way you'd like them to.

Dan_Solo · 04-07-2014 11:17AM

Grayson wrote: »

I understand that some people feel a connection to the Irish language, but they need to understand that most people don't. Trying to make people like it is like trying to make a girl like your mate who makes strange noises and smells a bit of old milk. I'm sure he's endearing and would make a great BF, but she's not really interesting and will never see him the way you'd like them to.

While not a big fan of your metaphor between Irish and some smelly person, I agree with the overall sentiment. Legislating for culture is something which I don't think is even possible to do, just look at France and their "disquettes" etc. and what a flop that is, before we even get to whether it's morally the right thing to do or not.

FunLover18 · 04-07-2014 11:27AM

STADEdeLUC wrote: »

Disagree, having done the leavng cert recently I think Irish shouldn't be removed but rather improved, id love to see even more emphasis put on spoken irish, ''beatha teanga í a labhairt''

alchemist33 wrote: »

It's of no use in the outside world but it's a vital part of our heritage. I can't understand Irish people who want it to die.

dodderangler wrote: »

Pain in me b0llox with people like you trying to rid us of our original language.
I can speak enough to have a conversation and il be damned if we are to rid ourselves of it.
It's a beautiful language. No one is for in you to learn it but you can fcuk off if you think we should rid ourselves entirely of it just cuz you can't understand it.

Hotfail.com wrote: »

Why would you want to kill off a part of our heritage!? All threads like this do is make me angry

The OP is suggesting that Irish should be made optional for the Leaving Cert:

It's OPTIONAL!! If people still want to do it and feel it's part of their heritage they can still do it!
Can ANYONE explain to me how making Irish optional after ELEVEN years of studying Irish from primary school through to Junior Cert will kill the language? I know the OP is also of this opinion but in my mind it will only grow stronger given that it will be studied by those who want to, meaning that standards won't be dragged down by those who don't give a sh*t.
GAA, trad music, sean-nós singing, all part of our heritage yet no clamour for them to be compulsory. IRISH HISTORY isn't even compulsory and there was even talk of making history optional for Junior Cert
I also don't understand people who want it to die. I also don't understand people who don't like chocolate but I know that force feeding it to them isn't the answer.
Maths and English are NOT compulsory. Schools may make them so due to University requirements but the ONLY subject that the state says we MUST do for the Leaving Cert is Irish

Snake · 04-07-2014 11:28AM

Didn't this thread happen before?

topper75 · 04-07-2014 11:46AM

Ochón Ochón... OP wants to kill off one of the last damn things we have that makes us Irish at all!

Cad a dhéarfadh an Bhainríon Eibhlís II? Tá sise fiú amháin tuirseach traochta de Manchain Aontaithe agus Sráid an Corónú.
Bíonn sí ag féachaint ar an iománaíocht in ionad an cac sin.

In fairness OP, having this subject on the timetable is not really stopping you becoming a crack Java coder, is it? Bí macánta linn. You could just be lazy.

FunLover18 · 04-07-2014 11:55AM

topper75 wrote: »

Ochón Ochón... OP wants to kill off one of the last damn things we have that makes us Irish at all!

Cad a dhéarfadh an Bhainríon Eibhlís II? Tá sise fiú amháin tuirseach traochta de Manchain Aontaithe agus Sráid an Corónú.
Bíonn sí ag féachaint ar an iománaíocht in ionad an cac sin.

In fairness OP, having this subject on the timetable is not really stopping you becoming a crack Java coder, is it? Bí macánta linn. You could just be lazy.

The OP may want to kill the language but the fact that Irish speakers believe making it optional for the final two years of a 14 year education system will actually kill it speaks volumes about how little faith the Irish speakers/lovers have in themselves to keep it alive. The vast majority of people drop Irish after secondary school anyway, what is the point in trying to stop them doing it two years earlier. After eleven years of studying Irish (most people become fluent in their mother tongue by the age of 3/4) what can they possibly learn in those two years that will make even the slightest difference to the survival of the Irish language!?

PS I don't speak Irish, does that mean I'm not Irish? This attitude REALLY helps the cause

shane7218 · 04-07-2014 12:28PM

topper75 wrote: »

Ochón Ochón... OP wants to kill off one of the last damn things we have that makes us Irish at all!

Cad a dhéarfadh an Bhainríon Eibhlís II? Tá sise fiú amháin tuirseach traochta de Manchain Aontaithe agus Sráid an Corónú.
Bíonn sí ag féachaint ar an iománaíocht in ionad an cac sin.

In fairness OP, having this subject on the timetable is not really stopping you becoming a crack Java coder, is it? Bí macánta linn. You could just be lazy.

So if I can't speak Irish I have nothing that defines me as Irish. Rubbish!

Why should I have to spend time on something that is:

1: Dead
2: Useless
3: Not something I have any Interest in

Why don't we force everyone to learn Irish history or Irish dancing ?

nice_guy80 · 04-07-2014 12:29PM

should be optional after Junior Cert.

schools need more help with the teaching of it - they get 0 resources

partyguinness · 04-07-2014 12:36PM

Looking back at our Irish LC course...why did the topics have to be so effing depressing???

I remember the standard essay topics to learn were (in English): unemployment, pollution and emigration....how depressing...dont get me started on the prose which was pure misery. That cannot help.

Now that was 1991-1996, maybe it has changed to a more cheery disposition

BTW- I got a B1 in honours...:P

topper75 · 04-07-2014 12:42PM

FunLover18 wrote: »

Irish speakers believe making it optional for the final two years of a 14 year education system will actually kill it speaks volumes about how little faith the Irish speakers/lovers have in themselves to keep it alive.

Where do you stop with the options though? At some point you need a common system. It is no surprise that the Irish language would be given pride of place in an Irish curriculum. You need a core to a curriculum. As the population increases and diversifies through immgration, such a core becomes even more important again, not less important.

FunLover18 wrote: »

...what can they possibly learn in those two years that will make even the slightest difference to the survival of the Irish language!?

Don't quote me on it because it has been a while

but you learn about the language's history and place in an Indo-European context and you learn to debate abstract topics and current affairs etc. You also focus more on oral and aural Irish. Personally I would rip out a lot of the excessive literature emphasis. But students do push well past the JC level. These two years are critical.

FunLover18 wrote: »

PS I don't speak Irish, does that mean I'm not Irish? This attitude REALLY helps the cause

Referring to 'not Irish' i.e. exclusion is a negative bent. I can turn this around and say that yes learning a language spoken in Ireland for thousands of years alongside the one that has only been in use for a few hundred definitely intensifies ones sense of belonging to the nation. Be careful that I'm not suggesting any corollary of that i.e. not speaking Gaelic means you are not Irish! As an analogy, if I was asked to choose between a German-speaking German national and a German national who was raised in an isolated fashion in Dusseldorf by British parents as to who was 'most' German, rationally you would pick the former. But of course establishing degrees of belonging to a tribe raises hackles, and nowhere more so than here in Ireland with the colonial and civil war history along with present day identity issues of NI.

topper75 · 04-07-2014 12:45PM

shane7218 wrote: »

So if I can't speak Irish I have nothing that defines me as Irish. Rubbish!

Why should I have to spend time on something that is:

1: Dead
2: Useless
3: Not something I have any Interest in

Why don't we force everyone to learn Irish history or Irish dancing ?

Not saying you are not Irish Shane. See the point I made to Funlover in respect of this point.

To address your three issues:

1: blatantly incorrect
2: subjective viewpoint
3: talking here about a NATIONAL core curriculum

Grayson · 04-07-2014 12:45PM

topper75 wrote: »

Ochón Ochón... OP wants to kill off one of the last damn things we have that makes us Irish at all!

Cad a dhéarfadh an Bhainríon Eibhlís II? Tá sise fiú amháin tuirseach traochta de Manchain Aontaithe agus Sráid an Corónú.
Bíonn sí ag féachaint ar an iománaíocht in ionad an cac sin.

In fairness OP, having this subject on the timetable is not really stopping you becoming a crack Java coder, is it? Bí macánta linn. You could just be lazy.

This is what makes me irish.

Having an argument about whether Lyons or Barrys is better, despite being a coffee drinker.
Claiming that Guinness doesn't travel (and swearing that one barman is better than another despite both of them using the same tap and the same technique).
Thinking jack Charlton is the greatest Irishman ever.
Swearing using the word feck in public because it's not fcuk and so it's not really swearing it it? .

Speaking irish doesn't make me or anyone else Irish. If it was a necessary qualification then most people here wouldn't be Irish.

partyguinness · 04-07-2014 12:48PM

shane7218 wrote: »

So if I can't speak Irish I have nothing that defines me as Irish. Rubbish!

Why should I have to spend time on something that is:

1: Dead
2: Useless
3: Not something I have any Interest in

Why don't we force everyone to learn Irish history or Irish dancing ?

Quite frankly, you could use the same argument about history, Shakespeare etc and pretty much anything that is not technologically related!!

BTW not having an interest in Irish does not make it 'dead' or 'useless'.

topper75 · 04-07-2014 12:50PM

Grayson wrote: »

This is what makes me irish.
Having an argument about whether Lyons or Barrys is better, despite being a coffee drinker.

Claiming that Guinness doesn't travel (and swearing that one barman is better than another despite both of them using the same tap and the same technique).

Thinking jack Charlton is the greatest Irishman ever.

Swearing using the word feck in public because it's not fcuk and so it's not really swearing it it? .

Speaking irish doesn't make me or anyone else Irish. If it was a necessary qualification then most people here wouldn't be Irish.

One brand of tea is Irish. The other isn't. I'm Irish so I know which.
What's Irish about Diageo?
Jack Charlton - no - no I can't - it'd be like telling kids about Santa.
So you are left with feck - or feck all - go learn some Gaeilge - you are drifting into orbit here.:D

Insect Overlord · 04-07-2014 12:51PM

Ag gáire os ard.

shane7218 · 04-07-2014 12:51PM

partyguinness wrote: »

Quite frankly, you could use the same argument about history, Shakespeare etc and pretty much anything that is not technologically related!!

BTW not having an interest in Irish does not make it 'dead' or 'useless'.

But it pretty much is dead. Where is it used and how many people can actually speak and understand it

shane7218 · 04-07-2014 12:55PM

partyguinness wrote: »

Quite frankly, you could use the same argument about history, Shakespeare etc and pretty much anything that is not technologically related!!

BTW not having an interest in Irish does not make it 'dead' or 'useless'.

Excluding shakesphere (Which should not be mandatory either) they are all optional, what makes Irish so important that EVERYONE has to do it.

partyguinness · 04-07-2014 12:56PM

shane7218 wrote: »

But it pretty much is dead. Where is it used and how many people can actually speak and understand it

What is your defintion of 'dead' and where you grew up.

Gaelscoils have never been more popular for example. RnaG and TnaG has a pretty solid following especially along the western.

We must do all we can to protect our culture and heritage. Without our language (whatever your viewpoint), we are just a smaller version of England.

shane7218 · 04-07-2014 01:00PM

partyguinness wrote: »

What is your defintion of 'dead' and where you grew up.

Gaelscoils have never been more popular for example. RnaG and TnaG has a pretty solid following especially along the western.

We must do all we can to protect our culture and heritage. Without our language (whatever your viewpoint), we are just a smaller version of England.

So the Irish langauge is the only thing that makes us Unique ??? So our music, dancing etc has no meaning at all ? Today we force people and what difference does it make ? Most people in the country cant speak it and most dont care. Why not let a person decide for themselves

BizzyC · 04-07-2014 01:03PM

Hold on, last time I checked there are plenty of options for 3rd level education that do not require Irish.
I have plenty of friends with degrees and decent jobs who can't understand a word.

The issue you have here is that your course required it which annoyed you.

TBH I think it is a bad sign if someone can't manage to pass an exam in a subject that they've been taught for 12 years.
If you don't have the basics of something learned after 12 years, why should I have confidence that you're going to be able to handle the workload of a degree?

Grayson · 04-07-2014 01:04PM

partyguinness wrote: »

What is your defintion of 'dead' and where you grew up.

Gaelscoils have never been more popular for example. RnaG and TnaG has a pretty solid following especially along the western.

We must do all we can to protect our culture and heritage. Without our language (whatever your viewpoint), we are just a smaller version of England.

If you think the language is the only thing that stops us being English you really don't know this country and you really have no respect for it.

Can we kill Irish once and for all

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