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I need feminism because...

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,246 ✭✭✭iwantmydinner


    strobe wrote: »
    What's the figure, out of curiosity? Bout 2.25%, or?

    Are you being deliberately obtuse, or?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,114 ✭✭✭ivytwine


    I don't think it's fair to say that most girls in the homes were raped.

    Of course a fair proportion of them were, but unless people are suggesting the rape rate was dramatically higher than it is presently it can't be proved.

    In the thread in the Gentlemen's Club, it's mentioned that some amount of the men tried to marry their girlfriends but weren't allowed by family. Others I'm sure were terrified and callous and weak and any number of things that prevented them standing up for their partners.

    I'm sure that it was often a case of teens getting carried away as they continue to do. In an era with no sexual education and no contraception pregnancies were bound to occur. Could you imagine nowadays if you had to stay with the first man you slept with?! There were probably a fair amount of boys breathing a sigh of relief that the problem had been 'dealt with'. Not noble or brave, but all-too-human.

    The social conditions which saw sex as evil and unnatural were the root cause, IMO.


  • Posts: 81,309 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Tara Salty Flame


    I was reading articles about girls who hadn't a notion what the lad was doing to them in the first place but agreed for the old "if you love me you'll let me".
    It's sad to think they were that uninformed


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,114 ✭✭✭ivytwine


    bluewolf wrote: »
    I was reading articles about girls who hadn't a notion what the lad was doing to them in the first place but agreed for the old "if you love me you'll let me".
    It's sad to think they were that uninformed

    There would have been extreme naivety from both genders. I would also think a fair amount of girls with learning disabilities would have been taken advantage of like this.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,269 ✭✭✭GalwayGuy2


    Definitely on the women with learning difficulties mentioned above.

    But, how did the guy know what to do and the women didn't?

    Also, how did people, both men and women, not realise the basics of sex when growing up in a largely farming environment?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,949 ✭✭✭✭IvyTheTerrible


    GalwayGuy2 wrote: »
    Definitely on the women with learning difficulties mentioned above.

    But, how did the guy know what to do and the women didn't?

    Also, how did people, both men and women, not realise the basics of sex when growing up in a largely farming environment?
    Well I know on my grandparents farm, which had lots of sheep and cattle, the daughters never ever saw the birth of a lamb or calf in their youth, and presumably weren't let witness the conception either.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,220 ✭✭✭Ambersky


    Whatever the arguments about feminism now, getting rid of the control, shame, social and legal obstacles to womens control of their reproductive system was and is, one of feminism's main objectives and part of the very reason for its existence.

    Girls in Ireland in my youth were expected to take responsibility for not getting pregnant in a situation where there was no contraception available and no information about what would and what wouldnt get you pregnant. Without sex education often even from your parents and with no books or television there to educate yourself rumours and stories about how not to get pregnant abounded. Rumours on how not to get pregnant replaced education and sometimes women really had no idea what sex was actually suppose to be like and didnt know what was happening, they were taught to not look at their bodies, to keep their hands away from their bodies and to cover up at all times, there was a huge sense of shame and embarassment about nakedness and the human body.
    At the same time girls were expected to attract and hold onto a suitable young man and not to have sex untill they were married or at least had a reliable promise.
    My memory is that it was an achievement for a boy to have sex and with as many partners as possible, a boy was expected to try and a girl was expected to stop him. Boys boasted about having sex whether it was true or not. Girls were accused of having sex and there were all kinds of names for girls who were easy and no one would want to marry them.

    Within the home gender roles were also quite strong. My father wouldnt have been seen pushing a pram for example and there were no men in town who did. Girls were often expected to wait on their brothers making cups of tea for them, cooking, washing and ironing. Men were considered wonderful if they "helped" with childcare but the responsibility for the care of children was ultimately seen to be that of the housewife and mother no matter how much the man helped. There was little or no childcare outside of the family so if you were thrown out of home or ran away how would you get and hold down a job with a child or children even if you could get one that paid much less than a mans wages.

    Society was geared so that men had control of money and with that came an enormous far reaching consequence of social control.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Ambersky wrote: »
    Whatever the arguments about feminism now, getting rid of the control, shame, social and legal obstacles to womens control of their reproductive system was and is, one of feminism's main objectives and part of the very reason for its existence.

    Girls in Ireland in my youth were expected to take responsibility for not getting pregnant in a situation where there was no contraception available and no information about what would and what wouldnt get you pregnant.
    At the same time girls were expected to attract and hold onto a suitable young man and not to have sex untill they were married or at least had a reliable promise.
    My memory is that it was an achievement for a boy to have sex and with as many partners as possible, a boy was expected to try and a girl was expected to stop him. Boys boasted about having sex whether it was true or not. Girls were accused of having sex and there were all kinds of names for girls who were easy and no one would want to marry them.

    Within the home gender roles were also quite strong. My father wouldnt have been seen pushing a pram for example and there were no men in town who did. Girls were often expected to wait on their brothers making cups of tea for them, cooking, washing and ironing. There was little or no childcare outside of the family so if you were thrown out of home or ran away how would you get and hold down a job with a child or children even if you could get one that paid much less than a mans wages.

    Society was geared so that men had control of money and with that came an enormous far reaching consequence of social control.

    Great post and the bit in bold is so true, we like to think we have moved on and we have in a lot of ways but the shame is still there, you only have to look at the stigma of abortion to see that we've just moved our judgement onto another group of women.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,220 ✭✭✭Ambersky


    In the early 80s I had just got my first job and went to rent a television in Dublin. Without the signature of my father or my husband I was not allowed to rent that television.
    People forget how much control there was of women during previous decades in even petty things and it is an important part of the story as to why so many women handed over their children to be adopted. It was difficult to be an autonomous woman without a child so many women wouldnt even consider keeping a child it unless they had family support in which to raise it.
    The social financial control of women is just as important a part of the story as the lack of contraception or church control.
    The social control of women was hard fought and hard argued by feminism. Anyone arguing any issue like equal pay, access to education and job opportunities, childcare, contraception, sex education, anti discrimination laws in relation to goods and services as well as social welfare etc was accused of being a feminist. We were feminists we were arguing and working for control of our reproductive abilities, equal access to goods and services, education, job opportunities and equal pay and we did bring about lots of change, so much so that people seem to forget the context that so many things like mother and baby homes happened in.
    Those reasons are why I personally needed feminism.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,114 ✭✭✭ivytwine


    Ambersky mentions in her post about the lack of knowledge about sex and the human body. I think that had a huge part to play in those unplanned pregnancies.

    Even in the 90s/00s I heard rumours about not being able to get pregnant your first time, standing up etc. I genuinely got most of my sex ed from English teen mags; Mizz, Shout etc. An Irish teen mag wasn't launched until I was 15 or so! I posted in another thread about the sex education I got in school, and I left in 2007.

    So imagine what it was like in the 40s and 50s. Couples were probably relying on withdrawal, which is dodgy at the best of times. Even the more clued in girls and guys were probably highly misinformed about sex- I recently read Kurt Vonnegut's Slaughterhouse Five, bits of which are based on his wartime experiences. He mentions that seeing naked girls showering in a POW camp was the first time 19-year-old soldiers had seen naked women in the flesh. Same era, and I would not imagine far off the experiences of many men at the time.

    Plus any of us are human, and sex and foreplay feels great. This is probably what caused a lot of the girls to 'fall'. The fact that they gave into a sin of pleasure is another motive for the vitriol of society.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,365 ✭✭✭✭fits


    Because unless you explicitly state otherwise, everyone assumes you are talking about a man

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/female-motorcyclist-54-killed-in-crash-in-co-mayo-1.1832957

    https://subscriptions.boards.ie

    Subscribe and save boards.ie



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,588 Mod ✭✭✭✭Amirani


    Excellent posts Ambersky. I absolutely agree with every word of both.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 700 ✭✭✭nicowa


    Because rape culture.
    High School Students Show Support For Classmates Charged With Rape, Bully Victims

    Students at Torrington High School in Connecticut have been protesting the arrest of two high school football players after they were charged with sexually assaulting two 13-year-olds.

    Cos football players don't do bad things. If they do these things it makes them right, right? :mad:


  • Posts: 81,309 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Tara Salty Flame


    I seriously don't get that whole culture, it's like a cult
    a big mad football cult


    I see anonymous are on the case
    Similar to what happened in Steubenville, the hashtag has caught the attention of several Anonymous-tied Twitter accounts:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,246 ✭✭✭iwantmydinner


    nicowa wrote: »
    Because rape culture.



    Cos football players don't do bad things. If they do these things it makes them right, right? :mad:

    What the actual f**k

    That's all so insane. If they weren't football players they'd probably have the sh1t kicked out of them by now. It makes NO SENSE


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,449 ✭✭✭Morag


    Because this still needs to be said.


    311419.jpg


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,114 ✭✭✭ivytwine


    On the 'friend zone'- this is cheering! Daniel Radcliffe on friend zoning


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,269 ✭✭✭GalwayGuy2


    *Shrugs*

    I guess 'freindzone' is said for lots of reasons.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,247 ✭✭✭Tigger99


    Care to elaborate GalwayGuy2? Apart from a shrug?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,269 ✭✭✭GalwayGuy2


    I can be lots of reasons. It can be from 'Omg, that woman owes me her body', to a simple way of expressing disappointment at rejection, or an opinion that the woman led the guy on, so on and so forth.

    Hell, I've seen plenty of guys lead women on for a self esteem boost. I'd say there's one or two women who do the same to men.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,247 ✭✭✭Tigger99


    'omg that women owes me her body? Really? Sounds like something a sexual predator would say.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,269 ✭✭✭GalwayGuy2


    That was the point?

    I was being a tongue in cheek. It was mocking both people who hold that view point, and people who think everybody who says friendzoned has that viewpoint...


  • Posts: 53,068 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    GalwayGuy2 wrote: »
    *Shrugs*

    I guess 'freindzone' is said for lots of reasons.

    GalwayGuy2, you have been active on this thread since the very beginning, you have seen all of the mod warnings, of which there were many (I have quoted some below to jog your memory). One such warning was even directed at you.

    You continue to dismiss those examples of why women need feminism when they are given, and as a result, you are no longer welcome to post on this thread.

    You cannot say you weren't given a fair chance.


    Wibbs wrote: »
    And yet again a thread on this subject has been hijacked by whataboutery. It stops now. No further discussion about this. If you want to start a thread about male equality and feminism, do so in the Gentleman's Club or Humanities. Any more of this and I'm handing out bans, simple as that. Back on topic. Thank you.
    Mod

    This thread has been derailed enough. The thread title is simple. "I need feminism because....." that has been sufficiently ruined for the OP and it ends now.

    If anyone wants to start a thread on the pros and cons of feminism go right ahead, any further such discussion in this thread will result in mod action.

    Fair warning.
    Woodward, please don't post in this thread again. 'Whataboutery' is prohibited in the forum charter, please make yourself familiar with this.
    Mod

    woodward, please bear in mind the forum you are posting in. Please familiarise yourself with the Ladies Lounge charter and particularly take into account the fact that we do not allow whataboutery here.

    Thank you.
    Mod

    Nokia69, this is a thread where posters get to share their reasons for needing feminism. It is not a thread for you to post inflammatory comments such as those in your last post. Please remember where you are and respect the thread title.
    Sauve wrote: »
    mod

    GalwayGuy2, this thread is for women to post reasons why feminism is needed, and not to have those posts criticised on thread.
    If you have a problem with a particular post, please report it and let the mods deal with it.

    Sauve.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,928 ✭✭✭✭rainbow kirby


    Even after all the time that the government has had to put guidelines in place regarding the (not fit for purpose) abortion law - they still end up with this absolute kludge.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,745 ✭✭✭✭kylith




  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,220 ✭✭✭Ambersky


    They are great posters thanks for the link Kylith


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,412 ✭✭✭Shakespeare's Sister


    Because the internet. Before I discovered online forums, woman-hating wasn't something I encountered thankfully. However the internet allows all sorts of resentful people to express their hatred for women in general based on just their personal experience, which has consumed them with bitterness. If this occurred in extremist MRA sites, well that goes with the territory (just as you'd need to expect man-hating in extremist radfem corners) but it happens in far more mainstream parts of the net, where both genders are supposedly welcome. And it's loathsome. And it's not "just as bad from women to men" - that is a ridiculous lie that's popular with people who don't want to admit there is a nasty attitude towards women on mainstream forums.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 519 ✭✭✭YumCha


    Because women can still get dumped for daring to start their period while having sex...

    (but at least an awesome feminist has written the best poem EVER about it)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,365 ✭✭✭✭fits




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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,047 ✭✭✭Da Shins Kelly


    Magaggie wrote: »
    Because the internet. Before I discovered online forums, woman-hating wasn't something I encountered thankfully. However the internet allows all sorts of resentful people to express their hatred for women in general based on just their personal experience, which has consumed them with bitterness. If this occurred in extremist MRA sites, well that goes with the territory (just as you'd need to expect man-hating in extremist radfem corners) but it happens in far more mainstream parts of the net, where both genders are supposedly welcome. And it's loathsome. And it's not "just as bad from women to men" - that is a ridiculous lie that's popular with people who don't want to admit there is a nasty attitude towards women on mainstream forums.

    Reddit, a site that is supposed to be fun and all-inclusive, has a serious thread of anti-woman sh*t running through it (not to mention a lot of weirdness about race). It's incredibly frustrating to read some of the stuff that gets posted on there, and any time a woman tries to make a point about it, she almost always gets shouted down. It has started to seep into Imgur too, an image sharing website that I like to use. Imgur used to be hilarious and lighthearted, just really funny pictures and memes, and it has just increasingly become like a playground for MRA-type attitudes and people trying to make political points that are almost always anti-feminism or criticising women in some capacity. I think it's because the male to female ratios on these sites are probably pretty skewed, so you just have a big circle jerk of guys backing each other up and very few women to counter what they're saying, so they all just start to agree with each other. It has made browsing Imgur a lot less enjoyable for me.


This discussion has been closed.
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