Mk4s taking over on the Belfast line?

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Well, well, well, if that article is correct then Waterford and Slgio passengers will see the cuts. If you look at the photo threat yesterday afternoon they were down 1 3 coach unit and they had to cancel a service and now hints of moving a 5 coach unit to Belfast services. Need I say anymore....

Irish Rail management must of all failed maths at school as they can't even add up numbers at this stage.

But they have extra sets, they just can't "afford" (be arsed more like) to run them and couple them to other sets to make longer trains when needed.

dowlingm wrote: »

I realise that the state of the NIR trackage means much of it is well below 90 but sending a "first class" speed restricted set to cover a DD on a medium term engagement is just sad.

it could be worse, it could be a 29

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

NTA would want to do something useful for a change to ensure other services don't suffer.

the only thing they will do is shut it, thats the only time they are interested in railways in my opinion

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Have you come across the 06.45 from Newary.

That's a special exemption and is hardly representative, given it's a very short run from Newry to the border.


They are not going to be running the Enterprise with speed restricted trains. That simply is not going to happen, and suggesting it might is daft.

lxflyer wrote: »

Inevitably if a 5 car ICR goes to the Belfast, a Mark 4 set is going to have to return to regular service to release ICRs off Cork to cover for the 5 car ICR.

There are no spare ICR sets sitting around at the moment - they're all in use since the completion of the set reformations.

It'll mean that the set rosters will have to be recast.

But it will require 2 5 coach units to be fitted out for operation in NI. You will have to have a spare for failures and a general maintenance cycle. You could say they could use sets 1 to 6 however as they are not doing that in the first place it wont happen.

It seems pointless when they are well below the standards on Belfast line and are they honestly expecting first class passengers paying for the trash they offer on the 22s as well as being down around 60 seats on every single journey they make on the route.

They can't be a major cost difference between the Mark 4 and current rolling stock so I fail to see why they won't use that. Is there possible issues with the line. We know there was lots of problems when they started on Cork line.

As for releasing a Mark 4 to compensate for the 22's moving to Belfast. Do you honestly believe IE would do this? They don't do it now when its needed so why would they bother. They will just continue with their current attitude of everything is prefect.

Anybody can see a mile off that they will be a huge amount of cash wasted here.

Part of the cost of the refurbishment project will have to be the provision of replacement stock during the project. That will be the extra stock that IE will have to bring out of storage, which will have to be Mark 4 stock to cover for the ICRs, as there are no spare ICRs available.

The ICRs that will be allocated to cover this will have to have TPWS fitted. End of story. And yes you're right, there will have to be at least two, if not three.

I don't generally post things here if I don't believe that they'll happen, and if you go through my posts, I've generally been proved right in the past.

Remember you also have full teams of catering crew - are they just going to pay them to sit and do nothing?

I don't think so.

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

And just because there is surplus catering staff it justifies the necessary expenses of kitting out a 5 coach set. 2 staff would be required to operate trolley services on the 6 coach units to avoid a change. Anyway don't NIR employ them so wouldn't that be their problem and redeployment could be possible on the network.

Having surplus staff is something IE have an A+ in so why would it be a problem :rolleyes:

I'm not saying it's the only reason, but frankly the first class business is important to them, and is an integral part of the Enterprise service.


I really think your posts need to stop being so negative. It's getting to be a broken record.

bikeman1 wrote: »

For me its simple what needs to be done to facilitate the makeover of the Enterprise DD sets. Which is very similar to LXFlyer.

1. Put two Mk4 sets back on the Cork line.

2. Re-jig the sets to allow two 5 car 22 1st class sets to be free for the Beller.

3. Fit the two sets with TPWS and NIR train radio (even take them from two of sets 1-6) not a major job.

4. Sort out the staffing arrangements for operation on the Belfast line.

5. Off we go!

They have sets to use, (Mk 4s) which is creating this artificial shortage of stock. The Belfast service despite what a lot of people is well used and the First Plus is a good product that holds it's own requiring one and two thirds of carriages. Just look at the three morning departures to Dublin. So the companies can't just say we will just throw out a non first class train onto the links for a year or however long it takes.

How about taking the TPWS and NIR Radio from each of the 1-6 ICR sets and putting them into the 5car ICR sets. Try and find the ICR availability within the current fleet if possible and continue to save money by not having the MKIV going around when they are not matching demand (perhaps some services need and will be cut to free up ICR availability, although they are two very different conversations to be fair)

If the Mk4s are not matching demand as is then why don't they run shorter Mk4 sets of say 5-6 piece for off peak runs.

You at least 2x5ICRs on Belfast run that will leave things very tight on the rest of the network if there are any train failures unless they bring a Mk4 set or two back.

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

I really think you need to stop defending IE and ge real about the situation as you clearly don't use IEs services everyday.

First Class was big on peak Cork services but IE didn't give a dam about it.

Of course I have a deal and that's for IE to provide a service to customers and not just cut off capacity from routes to satisfy other passengers. IE staff read these forums regularly and its the only effective way of getting a message across to them. If you don't like it then hit the ignore button for my posts!

They withdrew 2 sets for a reasons, do you think they will put two sets back in service.

There is no availability in the fleet that's the problem and suggesting the excuse to cut services to free up 22's for Belfast routes is just beyond belief.

There is a hell of a difference between defending a company and trying to look at a situation logically and dispassionately, which is what I'm doing.


I didn't once "defend" anyone - I said what I thought would happen.


All I'm reading here is frankly emotional rants.


It is quite clear that Mark 4 sets will have to return to service to cover this - there is no other stock, and starting rumours that other services will be shortened/cancelled is nothing short of wild speculation and scaremongering.

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

I really think you need to stop defending IE and ge real about the situation as you clearly don't use IEs services everyday.



First Class was big on peak Cork services but IE didn't give a dam about it.



Of course I have a deal and that's for IE to provide a service to customers and not just cut off capacity from routes to satisfy other passengers. IE staff read these forums regularly and its the only effective way of getting a message across to them. If you don't like it then hit the ignore button for my posts!



They withdrew 2 sets for a reasons, do you think they will put two sets back in service.



There is no availability in the fleet that's the problem and suggesting the excuse to cut services to free up 22's for Belfast routes is just beyond belief.

It's far from beyond belief Jamie! In any change or project certain things have to be done that need to change the status quo.

The cost of having a replacement train in place would be factored into the overall project.

If 22001-06 was used for the purpose for which it was presumably purchased - the sort of coverage and additional capacity work the C3Ks do - then NIR train staff would already be fully up to speed. Only the FC would be new.

While FC is apparently important to Enterprise presumably this applies to the early AM/late PM. Recasting the timetable to allow sets to be constant on certain links would mean Econ 22s could cover the links with low FC.

To my mind the DDs should simply not be sent for refurb without a rethink of what the hell Enterprise is for and what funding will be needed to get it there. Instead it seems to be "change as little as possible, path of least resistance" stuff which will satisfy no-one.

corktina wrote: »

wouldn't it have been a great idea to have had a cross-border policy on buying compatible stock in the first place. In fact wouldn't it have been great if IE had had some sort of game plan when spending millions on new rolling stock

in America, Amtrak (nominally a private company) is obliged to provide all sorts of documents to Congress and thus the public about fleet plans, monthly financial performance and performance improvement plans for loss making routes. In Ireland, CIE companies simply declare "commercial confidentiality" and the Oireachtas shrugs and says "okay so".