Mk4s taking over on the Belfast line?

corktina

Whisper I heard...any truth in it?

Captain Chaos

corktina wrote: »

Whisper I heard...any truth in it?

It's a possibility with the DD stock due a major overhaul and refurb. That rumor has been going around a while and with surplus Mk4 stock its more than likely.

But......there is alot of work involved. Clearing Mk4s to York Road, installing TPWS and AWS and NIR radios in the selected sets DVTs unless you plan to use two drivers at all times when the train are pushed from Belfast to Dundalk. Also training staff to service the Mk4s.

Personally I think it would be easier and far more likely to permanently allocate 2x3ICRs to the line seeing as they are fully equipped (sets 1-6) and cleared to York Road and share the work load with 2x3 NIR C3k sets.

bikeman1

corktina wrote: »

Whisper I heard...any truth in it?

Don't take too much notice of some of the rumours spread on the Facebook page Irish Railways Past & Present!

Some staff like to wind up gullible enthusiasts!

corktina

Is that where it came from? I thought it sounded a bit unlikely

GBOA

For anyone playing the Mk3/Mk4 drinking game, get one down you.

Jamie2k9

Captain Chaos wrote: »

It's a possibility with the DD stock due a major overhaul and refurb. That rumor has been going around a while and with surplus Mk4 stock its more than likely.

But......there is alot of work involved. Clearing Mk4s to York Road, installing TPWS and AWS and NIR radios in the selected sets DVTs unless you plan to use two drivers at all times when the train are pushed from Belfast to Dundalk. Also training staff to service the Mk4s.

Personally I think it would be easier and far more likely to permanently allocate 2x3ICRs to the line seeing as they are fully equipped (sets 1-6) and cleared to York Road and share the work load with 2x3 NIR C3k sets.

Realistically they could avoid York Road Depot for servicing as it could be carried out with a set swap in Connolly for full maintenance and general fueling and toilet tanks could be done in Connolly instead of York Rd.

However as IE are in cost cutting mode I can't see a justification for such use of Mark 4. There is 1 Enterprise set not in services and bearing this in mind combined with changes to maintenance programmers when each set is out on refurb they could easily still provide a full services with minimal use of NIR C3k trains when extra increased maintenance is required.

Does anybody know when the refurb is due to begin?

Losty Dublin

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

There is 1 Enterprise set not in services and bearing this in mind combined with changes to maintenance programmers when each set is out on refurb they could easily still provide a full services with minimal use of NIR C3k trains when extra increased maintenance is required.

There isn't a spare Enterprise set, Jamie. Generally they are operated at 8 carriage sets, comprising of a DVT, first class, buffet car and 5 standard class carriages. There is one spare carriage of each type to cover for long term failures and servicing within the fleet. These too need to go for refurbishment which means that no spare vehicles will be available within the class. As a whole, its easier and more sensible to slot a replacement vehicle type into the link in lieu of a DD which is what Irish Rail are providing.

Now where's me shot glass?

Jamie2k9

There isn't a spare Enterprise set, Jamie. Generally they are operated at 8 carriage sets, comprising of a DVT, first class, buffet car and 5 standard class carriages. There is one spare carriage of each type to cover for long term failures and servicing within the fleet. These too need to go for refurbishment which means that no spare vehicles will be available within the class. As a whole, its easier and more sensible to slot a replacement vehicle type into the link in lieu of a DD which is what Irish Rail are providing.

Some were cut to 7 coaches (1 less STD) before the EGV's and when the EGV's started all sets were cut down. So they do have one full set available now.

With this in mind failures are less frequent now and with changes to servicing schedules one set could have a refub and 3 others in full service and if there is issues 22's of NIR trains could fill the gap for short periods of time if needed.

Are you confirming IE are putting Mark 4 on the route?

Losty Dublin

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Some were cut to 7 coaches (1 less STD) before the EGV's and when the EGV's started all sets were cut down. So they do have one full set available now.

With this in mind failures are less frequent now and with changes to servicing schedules one set could have a refub and 3 others in full service and if there is issues 22's of NIR trains could fill the gap for short periods of time if needed.

Are you confirming IE are putting Mark 4 on the route?

It isn't a fourth set though, it's the four spare carriages plus which are withdrawn for servicing, repairs etc. Even if it was returned to service a spare set needs to be in place while sets are withdrawn for refitting so it's a non runner.

In regards to spare stock for the Enterprise, the 2700's are already cleared to work the line.

end of the road

hopefully mk 4s will do belfast, if ICRS do, no doubt the rosslare and sligo will end up with more of the horid 2900 bone shakers

Captain Chaos

Could have used a Mk3 push pull set with the cafe/bar coach if only they didn't scrap all the standards.:pac:


Yep, I went there.......
I believe they will pull 134 out of Inchicore to the haul the set and all.:D

end of the road

b 103 will do a run to west cork tomorrow, a driver in connolly told me.
(i'l get me coat)

Losty Dublin

end of the road wrote: »

b 103 will do a run to west cork tomorrow, a driver in connolly told me.
(i'l get me coat)

A driver in Broadstone told me :pac:

GBOA

end of the road wrote: »

hopefully mk 4s will do belfast, if ICRS do, no doubt the rosslare and sligo will end up with more of the horid 2900 bone shakers

Drink!

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

GBOA

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Much the same as here it seems.

The_Wanderer

If it isn't a picture being posted on that FB group then you have to take a health warning with it, if it mentions "A driver in Heuston told me" then......move on nothing to see here.

But I will agree with one thing, far to many gullible enthusiasts out there who take it as gospel. We used to have "platform end wibber (as they call it in the UK), now we have Facebook wibber.

h.gricer

The_Wanderer wrote: »

But I will agree with one thing, far to many gullible enthusiasts out there who take it as gospel. We used to have "platform end wibber (as they call it in the UK), now we have Facebook wibber.

Indeed, but I do enjoy a good rumour, I remember the Drumcree crisis in July 1997, a big security crisis for the railway with an investment in the new Enterprise train ( De Diedrich coaches) Drumcree was at it's peak, a very serious danger of train hijacking, so the new trains where parked up in Heuston Yard while the battered MK2s took the brunt of the hijackings, they can burn them instead and do everybody a favour.
Well the rumour mill went into full swing with meetings of gullible enthusiasts on Heuston platform, hoping and praying just maybe they'll work to Cork or whatever, tis a good thing there was no iPhones, facebook would have seized up, in the end, they went nowhere, parked up for 4 weeks till the crisis died down, but then a driver said to a trainspotter they might work to Sligo, but was only a might, they would have to be cleared first.

Regards
hg

csd

Folks,

According to the new issue of Modern Railways, a 5ICR set will be allocated to the Belfast line to cover the set under refurbishment. This is in an article with the Chief Mechanical Engineer, Peter Smyth.

Modern Railways article by csd75, on Flickr

/csd

Captain Chaos

Another new Enterprise livery? The current one is what, 6 years old and only 8208 got it, maybe IE know something about this and that's why the other 201s were not painted even though they could badly do it. Interesting to see how this project goes with the mix of Canadian locos, British and French rolling stock with Irish and and Northern Irish systems all being brought under a new umbrella to make a better service.

Also the fact it's going to be a 5ICR that means another unit other than 1-6 will be on it. Why not make it a 6ICR, you have more capacity and all the of the safety systems and radios installed?

LXFlyer

Captain Chaos wrote: »

Another new Enterprise livery? The current one is what, 6 years old and only 8208 got it, maybe IE know something about this and that's why the other 201s were not painted even though they could badly do it. Interesting to see how this project goes with the mix of Canadian locos, British and French rolling stock with Irish and and Northern Irish systems all being brought under a new umbrella to make a better service.

Also the fact it's going to be a 5ICR that means another unit other than 1-6 will be on it. Why not make it a 6ICR, you have more capacity and all the of the safety systems and radios installed?

The lack of first class in a 2x3 ICR would be a problem given that the Enterprise sets rotate rather than staying on a fixed link.


That's where the companies make some money.

dowlingm

If non TPWSed FC ICRs go north on a scheduled basis it only shows that IE are laughing at the NI safety people as they already are with the Newry commuter 29000s. Hopefully the gear was relocated during reformation and it just wasn't heard about.

Captain Chaos

dowlingm wrote: »

If non TPWSed FC ICRs go north on a scheduled basis it only shows that IE are laughing at the NI safety people as they already are with the Newry commuter 29000s. Hopefully the gear was relocated during reformation and it just wasn't heard about.

All they need is a second man/qualified driver in the cab between Belfast and Dundalk but I think a speed restriction does apply aswell.

But in saying that on the last Mk3 scrap run they got 224 to take it to Dundalk and 206 took it up to Belfast a few few days later.

But as far as I know none of the 5ICR sets have any TPWS gear or NIR radios and there is no way they could have got it in the reformations.

dowlingm

I realise that the state of the NIR trackage means much of it is well below 90 but sending a "first class" speed restricted set to cover a DD on a medium term engagement is just sad.

LXFlyer

Oh come on.

Presumably the set concerned will be retro-fitted with the necessary equipment prior to going into use.

Frankly, suggesting that trains are going to be going around speed restricted or without the necessary safety equipment is just as bad as some of the nonsense I've read lately.

Captain Chaos

lxflyer wrote: »

Frankly, suggesting that trains are going to be going around speed restricted or without the necessary safety equipment is just as bad as some of the nonsense I've read lately.

I can't see IE pulling a 5ICR from service when they have a shortage of them, spending money they don't have to fully equip them for the NIR network, then run testing and commissioning runs because each set has to be verified that the systems are working, for which they only be working on for about a year and then never again. That's unless the work to fully fit out a 5ICR was priced into the tender that was funded by the EU in the first place but I can't see IE having that kind of foresight.

Much easier to stick on a second driver for half the route each way imo.

dowlingm

lxflyer wrote: »

Oh come on.

Presumably the set concerned will be retro-fitted with the necessary equipment prior to going into use.

Frankly, suggesting that trains are going to be going around speed restricted or without the necessary safety equipment is just as bad as some of the nonsense I've read lately.

after the selective door opening fiasco, no, I'm afraid I will not giving IE the benefit of the doubt on this.

TheBandicoot

lxflyer wrote: »

Oh come on.

Presumably the set concerned will be retro-fitted with the necessary equipment prior to going into use.

Frankly, suggesting that trains are going to be going around speed restricted or without the necessary safety equipment is just as bad as some of the nonsense I've read lately.

I suspect many members will be saving this post for future "I told you so" moments.

MGWR

Captain Chaos wrote: »

Another new Enterprise livery? The current one is what, 6 years old and only 8208 got it, maybe IE know something about this and that's why the other 201s were not painted even though they could badly do it. Interesting to see how this project goes with the mix of Canadian locos, British and French rolling stock with Irish and and Northern Irish systems all being brought under a new umbrella to make a better service.

Also the fact it's going to be a 5ICR that means another unit other than 1-6 will be on it. Why not make it a 6ICR, you have more capacity and all the of the safety systems and radios installed?

That's all that the Irish railway companies seem to specialise in of late; new paint jobs.

Jamie2k9

Well, well, well, if that article is correct then Waterford and Slgio passengers will see the cuts. If you look at the photo threat yesterday afternoon they were down 1 3 coach unit and they had to cancel a service and now hints of moving a 5 coach unit to Belfast services. Need I say anymore....

Irish Rail management must of all failed maths at school as they can't even add up numbers at this stage.

Jamie2k9

Oh come on.

Presumably the set concerned will be retro-fitted with the necessary equipment prior to going into use.

Frankly, suggesting that trains are going to be going around speed restricted or without the necessary safety equipment is just as bad as some of the nonsense I've read lately.

Have you come across the 06.45 from Newary.

Captain Chaos

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Well, well, well, if that article is correct then Waterford and Slgio passengers will see the cuts. If you look at the photo threat yesterday afternoon they were down 1 3 coach unit and they had to cancel a service and now hints of moving a 5 coach unit to Belfast services. Need I say anymore....

Irish Rail management must of all failed maths at school as they can't even add up numbers at this stage.

But they have extra sets, they just can't "afford" (be arsed more like) to run them and couple them to other sets to make longer trains when needed.

Jamie2k9

Captain Chaos wrote: »

But they have extra sets, they just can't "afford" (be arsed more like) to run them and couple them to other sets to make longer trains when needed.

I don't believe they do on a Friday afternoon. I passed Portlaoise a few Fridays ago at 11 pm and there was literally around 4 sets. That was a day when there was no failures. They are currently not dealing with demand on Fridays so unless they give a Mark 4 back to most Cork services on Friday it won't happen.

If it does then IE will have serious questions to answer and NTA would want to do something useful for a change to ensure other services don't suffer.

As for yesterday evening if the stock transfer set had failed it probably would of being canceled as well. You cannot operate a railway bieng dependent on a train not failing and not having any spare units.

end of the road

dowlingm wrote: »

I realise that the state of the NIR trackage means much of it is well below 90 but sending a "first class" speed restricted set to cover a DD on a medium term engagement is just sad.

it could be worse, it could be a 29

end of the road

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Well, well, well, if that article is correct then Waterford and Slgio passengers will see the cuts. If you look at the photo threat yesterday afternoon they were down 1 3 coach unit and they had to cancel a service and now hints of moving a 5 coach unit to Belfast services. Need I say anymore....

Irish Rail management must of all failed maths at school as they can't even add up numbers at this stage.

or most likely it will be rosslare and rosslare only?

end of the road

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

NTA would want to do something useful for a change to ensure other services don't suffer.

the only thing they will do is shut it, thats the only time they are interested in railways in my opinion

dowlingm

There is already a question of taxpayers not getting value for money for 6 installs of TPWS which IE have only used for a clearance trial. If those units are running around Cork suburban or something while TPWSless ICRs are going north, then I don't know what even.

As for making the numbers work, sending Mk4s to cover peak Limerick might make the numbers add up. As I recall they are cleared and have the station on the internal map? Timings might be off with fewer powered axles and the stopping pattern through the midlands though.

LXFlyer

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Have you come across the 06.45 from Newary.

That's a special exemption and is hardly representative, given it's a very short run from Newry to the border.


They are not going to be running the Enterprise with speed restricted trains. That simply is not going to happen, and suggesting it might is daft.

LXFlyer

Inevitably if a 5 car ICR goes to the Belfast, a Mark 4 set is going to have to return to regular service to release ICRs off Cork to cover for the 5 car ICR.

There are no spare ICR sets sitting around at the moment - they're all in use since the completion of the set reformations.

It'll mean that the set rosters will have to be recast.

Jamie2k9

lxflyer wrote: »

Inevitably if a 5 car ICR goes to the Belfast, a Mark 4 set is going to have to return to regular service to release ICRs off Cork to cover for the 5 car ICR.

There are no spare ICR sets sitting around at the moment - they're all in use since the completion of the set reformations.

It'll mean that the set rosters will have to be recast.

But it will require 2 5 coach units to be fitted out for operation in NI. You will have to have a spare for failures and a general maintenance cycle. You could say they could use sets 1 to 6 however as they are not doing that in the first place it wont happen.

It seems pointless when they are well below the standards on Belfast line and are they honestly expecting first class passengers paying for the trash they offer on the 22s as well as being down around 60 seats on every single journey they make on the route.

They can't be a major cost difference between the Mark 4 and current rolling stock so I fail to see why they won't use that. Is there possible issues with the line. We know there was lots of problems when they started on Cork line.

As for releasing a Mark 4 to compensate for the 22's moving to Belfast. Do you honestly believe IE would do this? They don't do it now when its needed so why would they bother. They will just continue with their current attitude of everything is prefect.

Anybody can see a mile off that they will be a huge amount of cash wasted here.

GBOA

Drink.

LXFlyer

Part of the cost of the refurbishment project will have to be the provision of replacement stock during the project. That will be the extra stock that IE will have to bring out of storage, which will have to be Mark 4 stock to cover for the ICRs, as there are no spare ICRs available.

The ICRs that will be allocated to cover this will have to have TPWS fitted. End of story. And yes you're right, there will have to be at least two, if not three.

I don't generally post things here if I don't believe that they'll happen, and if you go through my posts, I've generally been proved right in the past.

Jamie2k9

lxflyer wrote: »

Part of the cost of the refurbishment project will have to be the provision of replacement stock.

I don't generally post things here if I don't believe that they'll happen, and if you go through my posts, I've generally been proved right.

I mean the costs of using a 5 coach 22 instead of sets 1 to 6 which are ready to be used.

You are generally right however, all we hear about is IE's financial situation and how they are unable to do this or that because of it but they are prepared to splash the case getting a 5 coach 22 ready when they have units already.

By all means use the 22's if others won't suffer however I don't think wasting such money is acceptable and IE should be accountable and have justify such an expense.

I mean will a few suits be really that upset there is no dinning cart as they will be taken back down to earth when they board "Premier Class". Oh wait they will probably kit the coach out to the standard of first plus so more money well spent!

Now of course none of this may happen.

Drink.

How about constructive posts instead of being a ****.

LXFlyer

Remember you also have full teams of catering crew - are they just going to pay them to sit and do nothing?

I don't think so.

Jamie2k9

lxflyer wrote: »

Remember you also have full teams of catering crew - are they just going to pay them to sit and do nothing?

I don't think so.

And just because there is surplus catering staff it justifies the necessary expenses of kitting out a 5 coach set. 2 staff would be required to operate trolley services on the 6 coach units to avoid a change. Anyway don't NIR employ them so wouldn't that be their problem and redeployment could be possible on the network.

Having surplus staff is something IE have an A+ in so why would it be a problem :rolleyes:

LXFlyer

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

And just because there is surplus catering staff it justifies the necessary expenses of kitting out a 5 coach set. 2 staff would be required to operate trolley services on the 6 coach units to avoid a change. Anyway don't NIR employ them so wouldn't that be their problem and redeployment could be possible on the network.

Having surplus staff is something IE have an A+ in so why would it be a problem :rolleyes:

I'm not saying it's the only reason, but frankly the first class business is important to them, and is an integral part of the Enterprise service.


I really think your posts need to stop being so negative. It's getting to be a broken record.

Captain Chaos

Seeing as the Enterprise sets get rotated daily will this mean that some NIR staff will need to be trained up on the ICRs or are they going to find a way of keeping an IE crew with the ICR set at all times? For example when the sets are stored at York Road, two of them and one at Connolly at night, will the ICR run empty to Dundalk and back to take up the link.

GBOA

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

How about constructive posts instead of being a ****.

You have a deal. I'll stop drinking when you start making posts that aren't filled with supposition and wild speculation.

bikeman1

For me its simple what needs to be done to facilitate the makeover of the Enterprise DD sets. Which is very similar to LXFlyer.

1. Put two Mk4 sets back on the Cork line.

2. Re-jig the sets to allow two 5 car 22 1st class sets to be free for the Beller.

3. Fit the two sets with TPWS and NIR train radio (even take them from two of sets 1-6) not a major job.

4. Sort out the staffing arrangements for operation on the Belfast line.

5. Off we go!

They have sets to use, (Mk 4s) which is creating this artificial shortage of stock. The Belfast service despite what a lot of people is well used and the First Plus is a good product that holds it's own requiring one and two thirds of carriages. Just look at the three morning departures to Dublin. So the companies can't just say we will just throw out a non first class train onto the links for a year or however long it takes.

sharpish

bikeman1 wrote: »

For me its simple what needs to be done to facilitate the makeover of the Enterprise DD sets. Which is very similar to LXFlyer.

1. Put two Mk4 sets back on the Cork line.

2. Re-jig the sets to allow two 5 car 22 1st class sets to be free for the Beller.

3. Fit the two sets with TPWS and NIR train radio (even take them from two of sets 1-6) not a major job.

4. Sort out the staffing arrangements for operation on the Belfast line.

5. Off we go!

They have sets to use, (Mk 4s) which is creating this artificial shortage of stock. The Belfast service despite what a lot of people is well used and the First Plus is a good product that holds it's own requiring one and two thirds of carriages. Just look at the three morning departures to Dublin. So the companies can't just say we will just throw out a non first class train onto the links for a year or however long it takes.

How about taking the TPWS and NIR Radio from each of the 1-6 ICR sets and putting them into the 5car ICR sets. Try and find the ICR availability within the current fleet if possible and continue to save money by not having the MKIV going around when they are not matching demand (perhaps some services need and will be cut to free up ICR availability, although they are two very different conversations to be fair)

Jamie2k9

I really think your posts need to stop being so negative. It's getting to be a broken record.

I really think you need to stop defending IE and ge real about the situation as you clearly don't use IEs services everyday.

I'm not saying it's the only reason, but frankly the first class business is important to them, and is an integral part of the Enterprise service.

First Class was big on peak Cork services but IE didn't give a dam about it.

You have a deal. I'll stop drinking when you start making posts that aren't filled with supposition and wild speculation.

Of course I have a deal and that's for IE to provide a service to customers and not just cut off capacity from routes to satisfy other passengers. IE staff read these forums regularly and its the only effective way of getting a message across to them. If you don't like it then hit the ignore button for my posts!

For me its simple what needs to be done to facilitate the makeover of the Enterprise DD sets. Which is very similar to LXFlyer.

1. Put two Mk4 sets back on the Cork line.

2. Re-jig the sets to allow two 5 car 22 1st class sets to be free for the Beller.

3. Fit the two sets with TPWS and NIR train radio (even take them from two of sets 1-6) not a major job.

4. Sort out the staffing arrangements for operation on the Belfast line.

5. Off we go!

They have sets to use, (Mk 4s) which is creating this artificial shortage of stock. The Belfast service despite what a lot of people is well used and the First Plus is a good product that holds it's own requiring one and two thirds of carriages. Just look at the three morning departures to Dublin. So the companies can't just say we will just throw out a non first class train onto the links for a year or however long it takes.

They withdrew 2 sets for a reasons, do you think they will put two sets back in service.

How about taking the TPWS and NIR Radio from each of the 1-6 ICR sets and putting them into the 5car ICR sets. Try and find the ICR availability within the current fleet if possible and continue to save money by not having the MKIV going around when they are not matching demand (perhaps some services need and will be cut to free up ICR availability, although they are two very different conversations to be fair)

There is no availability in the fleet that's the problem and suggesting the excuse to cut services to free up 22's for Belfast routes is just beyond belief.