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Cyclists mega-thread (WARNING: Before posting you must read post #1)

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Comments

  • #452
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Any mention of tax should be banned from from these discussions. The posters who introduce it to cycling threads usually have no understanding of how it works.


  • #453
    Tenzor07
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,383 ✭✭✭Tenzor07


    beauf wrote: »
    Any mention of tax should be banned from from these discussions. The posters who introduce it to cycling threads usually have no understanding of how it works.

    I agree, when someone mentions taxing and registering bicycle users, it just means they want to see the Bicycle removed from the streets... :(


  • #454
    No Pants
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,347 ✭✭✭No Pants


    beauf wrote: »
    Any mention of tax should be banned from from these discussions. The posters who introduce it to cycling threads usually have no understanding of how it works.
    It's confusing as some of the folks who call for the licensing and registration of bikes and their users have previously railed against what they see as the expansion of the nanny state. :confused:


  • #455
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Well that's a different discussion.

    The objective is usually to reduce private car journeys as its not sustainable or affordable and increase other forms of transport.

    Licensing and registration and cycling insurance runs counter to that. The cycling insurance has proved to cost a lot more than it gain.

    3rd party insurance for everyone including pedestrians is worth looking at.


  • #456
    steveblack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 145 ✭✭steveblack


    This story plays out every summer, a few days of sunshine and everyone is enthusiastic about their bike.
    Come back here in November and this thread will have disappeared from the front page.
    Lets see how many are Gung Ho come the cold ,wet and windy winter.


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  • #457
    seamus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,190 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    beauf wrote: »
    Well that's a different discussion.
    Well, it's not really. Nanny statism is when a state is seen to introduce laws and controls which restrict the freedoms of citizens while not actually solving any problems, or providing benefits which fall massively short of the cost of implementing these controls.

    Licensing, taxing and insuring bicycles definitely falls into both branches, since it would cost a lot of money while providing zero societal benefits.

    It would be like bringing in a law that motorcyclists are banned from driving on the roads if it's snowing. Seems logical, but it's a solution actually looking for a problem. We don't have a huge amount of motorcyclists being killed in snow-related accidents.

    Likewise, taxing and insuring bikes is a solution looking for a problem. The cost of cycling on the exchequer is minimal, and there aren't thousands of people lying in hospital beds or facing massive healthcare bills after being struck by errant cyclists.


  • #458
    Aard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    steveblack wrote: »
    Lets see how many are Gung Ho come the cold ,wet and windy winter.

    It's a wonder people leave their houses at all during winter.


  • #459
    Aard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    Talking about the cost of cars vs the cost of bikes, the Dutch govt released a study showing that the total (including external) costs of cars was €18.1bn per annum vs bikes at €1.2bn. Given that the Netherlands has a bike mode share of over 35%, if that percentage were closer to that of Ireland (less than 10%) then the figures would be skewed even more.


  • #460
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    steveblack wrote: »
    This story plays out every summer, a few days of sunshine and everyone is enthusiastic about their bike.
    Come back here in November and this thread will have disappeared from the front page.
    Lets see how many are Gung Ho come the cold ,wet and windy winter.



    If you cycled regularly all year round you would know that the weather argument doesn't, er, hold water.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=90916580&postcount=410

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=90922103&postcount=412


  • #461
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    seamus wrote: »
    Well, it's not really. Nanny statism is when a state...

    I meant a discussion around why people have double standards towards it.

    Suggestions of Licensing and registration are simply to make cycling less popular. They can't justify the cost/benefit of such system, which is why they've been dropped in places that did try them.


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  • #462
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    If you cycled regularly all year round you would know that the weather argument doesn't, er, hold water....

    Considering the traffic gets dramatically worse in bad weather.

    Its actually makes cycling look a more attractive option.

    I see a wet day and wish I'd cycled that day.


  • #463
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,109 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    steveblack wrote: »
    This story plays out every summer, a few days of sunshine and everyone is enthusiastic about their bike.
    Come back here in November and this thread will have disappeared from the front page.
    Lets see how many are Gung Ho come the cold ,wet and windy winter.

    The main traffic counts in Dublin City are taken in November and these counts show more and more people cycling each year, in November.


  • #464
    steveblack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 145 ✭✭steveblack


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    If you cycled regularly all year round you would know that the weather argument doesn't, er, hold water.


    The electronic cyclist counters around dublin would tell you the numbers are well down when it rains.


  • #465
    steveblack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 145 ✭✭steveblack


    I cycle and i have a car, both can co-exist.

    From reading the post on this forum it would appear that the pro cycling zealots are either miserable penny pinchers or dont have any money and a jealous of those who can run a car.

    In the New Leap Visitors Card tread one poster suggests , for a miserable €10 saving, a trip out to the bloody airport. How long would that take?
    Mrs OBumble wrote: »
    +1

    I can see some regular commuters making a special trip out to the airport to collect one, unless it's only available in the secure zone or with a boarding pass.

    Another deluded poster claimed it costs €10,000 a year to run a car! What are they driving? A Bentley which they trade in every 6 months.

    Money ,Money ,Money every few post it comes back to Money, a definite undercurrent of jealousy of those who can afford cars.

    A lot of the posts are dripping with self righteous indignation, they come across as bitter people.
    Then i remembered the old saying " HE WHO WALKS, WALKS ALONE".
    It all makes sense now,a lot of the cycling zealots are not happy in their life and want to make those happy car users suffer just like they do.

    My advice get a car and get a girlfriend, you only live once, dont be bitter you whole life.


  • #466
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,296 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Penny-pinchers :confused:

    Most cyclists I know also have cars - pretty decent ones too for carrying the bikes.

    I'd consider myself pro-cycling and also, to a degree pro-motoring - I don't see the two as mutually exclusive. In fact, I tend to think that those who can't see the complementarities lack a certain amount of imagination.

    I think of lot of pro-cycling sentiment is driven by people who enjoy the activity whereas a lot of anti-cycling sentiment (often mistaken for pro-motoring sentiment) is animated in a more negative away around resentment at perceived freeloading......when in reality I think a lot of people are really projecting their annoyance at themselves towards cyclists. They're annoyed that they haven't the motivation to get out and enjoy the freeloading......


  • #467
    No Pants
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,347 ✭✭✭No Pants


    steveblack wrote: »
    From reading the post on this forum it would appear that the pro cycling zealots are either miserable penny pinchers or dont have any money and a jealous of those who can run a car.
    Do you have any idea how much bicycles can cost?
    steveblack wrote: »
    In the New Leap Visitors Card tread one poster suggests , for a miserable €10 saving, a trip out to the bloody airport. How long would that take?
    Depends from where. Regardless, one swallow does not a summer make.
    steveblack wrote: »
    Another deluded poster claimed it costs €10,000 a year to run a car! What are they driving? A Bentley which they trade in every 6 months.
    According to carculator.ie, my car costs me €5,511 each year. However, they seem to have seriously underbudgeted for tyres at only €131 (wouldn't shoe a corner) and fuel, yet overestimated on servicing costs at over €1,000 and the NCT at €155 (?).

    The AA gives estimates on motoring costs here. It starts at €6,598 and goes up to €17,035. Obviously the type of car is going to be a huge factor.
    steveblack wrote: »
    Money ,Money ,Money every few post it comes back to Money, a definite undercurrent of jealousy of those who can afford cars.
    I can't speak for everyone, but this doesn't ring true.
    steveblack wrote: »
    A lot of the posts are dripping with self righteous indignation, they come across as bitter people.
    Then i remembered the old saying " HE WHO WALKS, WALKS ALONE".
    It all makes sense now,a lot of the cycling zealots are not happy in their life and want to make those happy car users suffer just like they do.
    I don't know what your point is here. Many people don't walk alone and most cyclists cycle out of choice. They might suffer temporarily, depending on the effort they're putting in of course, but no more that anyone would after some exercise.
    steveblack wrote: »
    My advice get a car and get a girlfriend, you only live once, dont be bitter you whole life.
    Okay, you got me. With my car, my two bikes and my wife, I seriously cannot afford a girlfriend right now.


  • #468
    Aard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    steveblack wrote: »
    Another deluded poster claimed it costs €10,000 a year to run a car! What are they driving? A Bentley which they trade in every 6 months.

    My bad. It's actually €11,900.

    http://blog.aaireland.ie/motoring-costs-up-slightly-in-2013/


  • #469
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,296 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    No Pants wrote: »
    .........
    Okay, you got me. With my car, my two bikes and my wife, I seriously cannot afford a girlfriend right now.

    I think the better advice would be don't get a girlfriend and dump the wife and kids, then you'll have more to spend on bikes and cars.......

    ........kids are just money-sponges!


  • #470
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,004 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    steveblack wrote: »
    The electronic cyclist counters around dublin would tell you the numbers are well down when it rains.
    The counters miss a huge swath of cyclists, including anyone on a carbon bike and anyone who does not cycle through the short line that picks up cyclists.
    steveblack wrote: »
    From reading the post on this forum it would appear that the pro cycling zealots are either miserable penny pinchers or dont have any money and a jealous of those who can run a car.
    LOL, my last bike cost more than my last car.
    In the New Leap Visitors Card tread one poster suggests , for a miserable €10 saving, a trip out to the bloody airport. How long would that take?
    So long as we are not using anecdotal evidence.
    Another deluded poster claimed it costs €10,000 a year to run a car! What are they driving? A Bentley which they trade in every 6 months.
    It really depends on what car and what distance and wether your the type of motorists who drives his car into the ground (the majority) or one who maintains it well (seems more expensive in the short term but pays divedends).
    Money ,Money ,Money every few post it comes back to Money, a definite undercurrent of jealousy of those who can afford cars.
    Again, really, jealousy. Why would I be jealous, I know very few who cycle who do not have a car barring those I know who live in the city centre who have no need for a car.
    A lot of the posts are dripping with self righteous indignation, they come across as bitter people.
    Then i remembered the old saying " HE WHO WALKS, WALKS ALONE".
    It all makes sense now,a lot of the cycling zealots are not happy in their life and want to make those happy car users suffer just like they do.
    I don't walk, jebus, the shame :p I think your holding that mirror a little too close to your face.
    My advice get a car and get a girlfriend, you only live once, dont be bitter you whole life.
    Not sure how the wife will take the GF/BF suggestion (love the suggestion that all cyclists are men or lesbian) but I am pretty sure my kids will be unimpressed with that sort of shenanigans. Have the car already so I suppose I am half way there.
    Jawgap wrote: »
    I think the better advice would be don't get a girlfriend and dump the wife and kids, then you'll have more to spend on bikes and cars.......

    ........kids are just money-sponges!
    Tell me about it, if only I hadn't bought a car, then I wouldn't have gotten a girlfriend who would bare my child, damn you car, it is all your fault, damn you to hell. Oh wait, I cycled to the first date i went on with my wife, damn you cycling, damn you to hell.

    No more movement for me, its far to costly.


  • #471
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    steveblack wrote: »
    I cycle and i have a car, both can co-exist.

    From reading the post on this forum it would appear that the pro cycling zealots are either miserable penny pinchers or dont have any money and a jealous of those who can run a car.....

    Does this mean you are Jealous of yourself and need to buy a second a car. :)


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  • #472
    07Lapierre
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,403 ✭✭✭07Lapierre


    steveblack wrote: »


    Another deluded poster claimed it costs €10,000 a year to run a car! What are they driving? A Bentley which they trade in every 6 .

    Well let's see...

    Car finance: 250 per month = €3000 per year
    Insurance: €600 per year.
    Road tax: €750 per year
    Fuel: €100 per month ( I admit I'm guess ing this figure) = €1200 per year.
    Maintenance: €250 per year
    Tyres? (Don't know yet as I haven't changed them )
    And finally depreciation: my car has dropped almost €10,000 since 2012, so that's €5000 per year!


  • #473
    Adam.Hynes250
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29 ✭Adam.Hynes250


    If I photocopied my tax disc and stuck it to my bicycle would people then believe me when I say cyclists pay road tax?


  • #474
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,598 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    Adam.Hynes250 wrote: »
    If I photocopied my tax disc and stuck it to my bicycle would people then believe me when I say cyclists pay road tax?

    no


  • #475
    John_C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,029 ✭✭✭John_C


    07Lapierre wrote: »
    Well let's see...

    Car finance: 250 per month = €3000 per year
    Insurance: €600 per year.
    Road tax: €750 per year
    Fuel: €100 per month ( I admit I'm guess ing this figure) = €1200 per year.
    Maintenance: €250 per year
    Tyres? (Don't know yet as I haven't changed them )
    And finally depreciation: my car has dropped almost €10,000 since 2012, so that's €5000 per year!

    I'm not an economist but I think you're double counting by including both finance and depreciation.


  • #476
    No Pants
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,347 ✭✭✭No Pants


    Adam.Hynes250 wrote: »
    If I photocopied my tax disc and stuck it to my bicycle would people then believe me when I say cyclists pay road tax?
    Someone would probably rob it. They try it with motorbikes frequently.
    John_C wrote: »
    I'm not an economist but I think you're double counting by including both finance and depreciation.
    Me neither, but my understanding would be that finance is what he has to pay for the car; depreciation is what the car is actually worth.


  • #477
    Tenzor07
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,383 ✭✭✭Tenzor07


    07Lapierre wrote: »
    Well let's see...

    Car finance: 250 per month = €3000 per year
    Insurance: €600 per year.
    Road tax: €750 per year
    Fuel: €100 per month ( I admit I'm guess ing this figure) = €1200 per year.
    Maintenance: €250 per year
    Tyres? (Don't know yet as I haven't changed them )
    And finally depreciation: my car has dropped almost €10,000 since 2012, so that's €5000 per year!

    Toll bridge charges, €1,200


  • #478
    07Lapierre
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,403 ✭✭✭07Lapierre


    John_C wrote: »
    I'm not an economist but I think you're double counting by including both finance and depreciation.

    Me neither, but depreciation is included in the AA's calculation of running costs.


  • #479
    No Pants
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,347 ✭✭✭No Pants


    07Lapierre wrote: »
    Tyres? (Don't know yet as I haven't changed them )
    €80 - €180 a corner fitted, depending on the size required. How often they're required depends on how heavy your foot is and the mileage done. Average is probably two tyres per year.

    Unless you're going with cheap Chinese "ditchfinders" - you wouldn't put cheap tyres on your bike, would you? :eek::D


  • #480
    07Lapierre
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,403 ✭✭✭07Lapierre


    No Pants wrote: »
    €80 - €180 a corner fitted, depending on the size required. How often they're required depends on how heavy your foot is and the mileage done. Average is probably two tyres per year.

    Unless you're going with cheap Chinese "ditchfinders" - you wouldn't put cheap tyres on your bike, would you? :eek::D

    I'll be fitting Michelin's as that's what's on it at the moment. So yeah, maybe €150 per year for tyres. It all adds up! :eek:


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  • #481
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,598 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    John_C wrote: »
    I'm not an economist but I think you're double counting by including both finance and depreciation.

    why, they are seperate expenses.


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