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What does it take to be...

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    #32
    Eoin
    Registered Users Posts: 21,244 ✭✭✭✭Eoin


    TheVoodoo wrote: »
    From my days in the second row, the Loosehead side second row (LSR) would usually have been the taller, and moved a lot more than the tighthead lock(TSR)- who took the pressure. Obviously you'd drive more into the prop, allowing the hooker more freedom to move. Due to the front row positioning, the loosehead side will be easier for a second row to move with.

    A lot of the time, they'll shunt and reverse the rolls, so the LSR will hold and the TSR will not stay 'fixed' allowing for a quick wheel, which can cause the prop on the opposing side to come up under the reversed pressure.

    That's a great summary - I really should have known that by now given I'm a front row (and have filled in at second row on a few occasions!).


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    #33
    durkadurka
    Registered Users Posts: 6,207 ✭✭✭durkadurka


    Brilliant thread.


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    #34
    Eoin
    Registered Users Posts: 21,244 ✭✭✭✭Eoin


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Rule 3: Don't try the fancy stuff
    We don't want to see a TH trying to get his arms out of the tackle to offload a ball. He can play the most boring attack rugby when he actually ever receives ball. Getting to ground safely and ensuring quick recycling is more than enough for the average TH. You are picked to break down walls all day, not carve them open. You wouldn't use a wrecking ball to dismantle a glass house would you?

    What I would say to all props is get the set-piece sorted first before trying to play Fijian stye rugby. Absolutely nothing wrong with a prop having and using their ball skills once they can do their primary job first.


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    #35
    Blut2
    Registered Users Posts: 2,947 ✭✭✭Blut2


    Eoin wrote: »
    What I would say to all props is get the set-piece sorted first before trying to play Fijian stye rugby. Absolutely nothing wrong with a prop having and using their ball skills once they can do their primary job first.

    I believe the medical term for that condition is "Mushy Buckley" syndrome.


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    #36
    RoundBox11
    Registered Users Posts: 854 ✭✭✭RoundBox11


    irishbucsfan wrote: »


    *In some countries like South Africa they swap the openside and blindsides numbers so that the openside wears 6 and the blindside wears 7.


    Ah right! I always wondered why Heinrich Brussow wore 6 but was said to be an openside!


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    #37
    RoundBox11
    Registered Users Posts: 854 ✭✭✭RoundBox11


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    *In some countries like South Africa they swap the openside and blindsides numbers so that the openside wears 6 and the blindside wears 7.


    Ah right! I always wondered why Heinrich Brussow wore 6 but was said to be an openside!


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    #38
    pickarooney
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,250 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    Does anyone here play inside centre? I think it's a position where many players get a bit of stick simply for not being a flashy 13 or winger. On the face of it there shouldn't be a huge difference between the attributes of the centres but, for example I don't think I've ever seen a 10 who played 13 (maybe Trinh-Duc?) whereas a 10 will, for better or worse, often move to 12 and back (O'Connor, Hook, Sexton, Henson...)

    Is it possible to speak of centres individually or should they be treated as a complementary pair?


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    #39
    CIARAN_BOYLE
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 14,599 Mod ✭✭✭✭CIARAN_BOYLE


    pickarooney wrote: »
    Does anyone here play inside centre? I think it's a position where many players get a bit of stick simply for not being a flashy 13 or winger. On the face of it there shouldn't be a huge difference between the attributes of the centres but, for example I don't think I've ever seen a 10 who played 13 (maybe Trinh-Duc?) whereas a 10 will, for better or worse, often move to 12 and back (O'Connor, Hook, Sexton, Henson...)

    Is it possible to speak of centres individually or should they be treated as a complementary pair?
    If you want underage players who moved from 10 to 13 then you could think of BOD and EOM

    I'm pretty sure Henson and Hook have played decent amounts of time at 13.

    The key thing to consider is that there are massively different types of 12. There is your 2nd 5/8s to use a SH term. These are guys who can also play 10 and are play making options. These include players known as a 10 such as O'Connor Hook Sexton and Henson as well lads like Paddy Wallace.

    Luke Marshall up in Ulster and JJ Hanrahan seem to be 2nd 5/8s as well.

    Then you have your run up the middle maybe offload types. These tend to be better defenders as well. Take your McFadden Darcy Mafi and Spence but don't tend to be kicking options or creative players.

    Sometimes you have a 13 outside one of these that is a creative type buts its a lot rarer. BOD and EOM for example. If you look at Leinster this year the wingers get alot more ball when EOM is on the field at 13 then when McFadden is at 13.

    I think you should have a distributing center in the pair or the wingers often get starved of ball.


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    #40
    Shelflife
    Registered Users Posts: 3,074 ✭✭✭Shelflife


    I think the examples so far here highlight the subtle yet crucial differences between different but similar positions, tighthead v loosehead, 4 v 5 , back row esp 6 and 7, 12 and 13 and 11 and 14, all very similar but different.

    this is why is frustrates me that players are played out of position ( ie where they play week in week out) at international level. sure the good ones will get away with it but a small mistake at that level will cost a try.

    putting wingers at centre or a 12 at 13 or a 6 in at 7, their natural play will default to their natural position, an extreme example was bergamasco at scrumhalf fot italy, his natural reactiona was to hit the rucks meaning that there was never a scrum half available.

    in the same way if you normally drift left and then suddenly you have to not do this anymore it creates confusion.

    yes there will be times when a gap has to be filled, but personally i prefer to see players in their natural/usual postion.

    Great thead btw.


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    #41
    chris85
    Registered Users Posts: 4,502 ✭✭✭chris85


    ray jay wrote: »
    How about the role of the hooker around the park and during defensive set pieces?

    At lineout time the hooker could be at a variety of locations defensively. He could be between touch and the 5 or be in the lineout as a lifter which often happens. I play hooker and I am generally used as a lifter and depending how our defensive lineout is going and what the other team are doing for their lineouts I may end up at scrumhalf or at blindside.

    At scrum, obviously in the middle and make it to 2nd breakdown after the ball gets out of the scrum. I generally am more of a cleaner at the breakdown and just getting the ball clean for our scrummie. Closer to their line I would become more of a carrier around the fringes.


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    #42
    skregs
    Registered Users Posts: 746 ✭✭✭skregs


    Be a fat guy


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    #43
    RoundBox11
    Registered Users Posts: 854 ✭✭✭RoundBox11


    Could anyone explain the ins and outs of being a hooker please?

    Apart from throwing into lineouts and hooking the ball back in the scrum, what are the distinct roles of a hooker? As in defense and attack. Also in contributing to the scrum once the ball has been hooked back.


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    #44
    prospect
    Registered Users Posts: 4,791 ✭✭✭prospect


    Not a question about a specific position but....


    Why, when restarting a game, does the kicker always bounce the ball two or three times on its end?


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    #45
    Pudsy33
    Registered Users Posts: 10,737 ✭✭✭✭Pudsy33


    prospect wrote: »
    Not a question about a specific position but....


    Why, when restarting a game, does the kicker always bounce the ball two or three times on its end?

    Well the restart is a drop kick, so they're just testing the bounce of the ball I guess. I'm a 10 and have never done it though.


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    #46
    part time punk
    Registered Users Posts: 462 ✭✭part time punk


    Can anyone tell me why props (and also second rows) generally play to an older age and it's quite unusual to see a top level younger prop like Cian Healy? I know scrummaging at the top level is very technical and the skills must take a long time master but surely the same applies to all the other players' skills. Given the physicality of those positions it just seems counter intuitive to me that they can play to a higher age than a lot of other players.


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    #47
    GerM
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,592 ✭✭✭GerM


    part time punk wrote: »
    Can anyone tell me why props (and also second rows) generally play to an older age and it's quite unusual to see a top level younger prop like Cian Healy? I know scrummaging at the top level is very technical and the skills must take a long time master but surely the same applies to all the other players' skills. Given the physicality of those positions it just seems counter intuitive to me that they can play to a higher age than a lot of other players.

    They're much more strength based positions that require conditioning and technique. Backs can make a major impact on pace and sharpness alone which youngsters have naturally. You'll often see them come in at 19 or 20 years old in the back three. You don't see as many centres come through until they're a year or two older. It takes several years to develop the core strength and conditioning required in the forward pack. Look at how far Cian Healy has come through since his debut. He's a very different player in terms of all round game. The strength and conditioning is far slower to wane than the speed and the sharpness that is required in the three quarter line. A front five player who is managed carefully and not flogged each week should play well into his thirties.


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    #48
    Otacon
    Registered Users Posts: 6,721 ✭✭✭Otacon


    Pudsy33 wrote: »
    Well the restart is a drop kick, so they're just testing the bounce of the ball I guess. I'm a 10 and have never done it though.

    ...and that's why you don't play for Ireland Pudsy.

    :pac:


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    #49
    CIARAN_BOYLE
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 14,599 Mod ✭✭✭✭CIARAN_BOYLE


    GerM wrote: »
    They're much more strength based positions that require conditioning and technique. Backs can make a major impact on pace and sharpness alone which youngsters have naturally. You'll often see them come in at 19 or 20 years old in the back three. You don't see as many centres come through until they're a year or two older. It takes several years to develop the core strength and conditioning required in the forward pack. Look at how far Cian Healy has come through since his debut. He's a very different player in terms of all round game. The strength and conditioning is far slower to wane than the speed and the sharpness that is required in the three quarter line. A front five player who is managed carefully and not flogged each week should play well into his thirties.
    Agreed. You notice the same thing with Heavyweight boxers, they keep going to a older age than lighter boxers because like tight five rugby players its more strength based than skill based.


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    #50
    mogwai81
    Registered Users Posts: 527 ✭✭✭mogwai81


    Just wondering the main differences between 14 and 11. Apart from a left footed 11 finding it easier to keep a return kick in play.


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    #51
    CIARAN_BOYLE
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 14,599 Mod ✭✭✭✭CIARAN_BOYLE


    mogwai81 wrote: »
    Just wondering the main differences between 14 and 11. Apart from a left footed 11 finding it easier to keep a return kick in play.

    The 11 plays on the left touchline. 90% of the passes that they throw will have the power generated by their left hand.

    The 14 plays on the right side of the field. 90% of the passes that they throw will have the power generated by their left hand.

    For some reason 14s tend to be bigger bulkier players than 11s but I'm not really sure why that is.


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    #52
    errlloyd
    Registered Users Posts: 12,603 ✭✭✭✭errlloyd


    CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »
    The 11 plays on the left touchline. 90% of the passes that they throw will have the power generated by their left hand.

    The 14 plays on the right side of the field. 90% of the passes that they throw will have the power generated by their left hand.

    For some reason 14s tend to be bigger bulkier players than 11s but I'm not really sure why that is.

    Well its easier to pass left, so I've always thought that right wingers end up doing a bit more tackling, and left wingers end up doing a bit more jinking, I don't know if that's just traditionally the case, or still today.


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    #53
    stephen_n
    Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »
    The 11 plays on the left touchline. 90% of the passes that they throw will have the power generated by their left hand.

    The 14 plays on the right side of the field. 90% of the passes that they throw will have the power generated by their left hand.

    For some reason 14s tend to be bigger bulkier players than 11s but I'm not really sure why that is.

    I think this has something to do with the speed of the ball through hands left to right, left wingers will get passed to more often, as in when a backline move is going left (most players are right handed) it moves quicker, therefore more chance of space for a smaller faster winger to attack. Right wings are bigger and stronger as it suits crossfield kicks and better for bursting through tackles when needed. Though these issues have lessened with professionalism, the ability to pass to both sides with similar speed an accuracy has improved and there are less and less small wingers about.


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    #54
    pickarooney
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,250 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    Most eams have fairly big 11s these days - Savea, North, Yarde... hardly nimble midgets


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    #55
    stephen_n
    Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    pickarooney wrote: »
    Most eams have fairly big 11s these days - Savea, North, Yarde... hardly nimble midgets

    That's only the last few years, Shane Williams :) As I said though it's changing now, to big players everywhere, there is rarely much space out wide these days for nippy wingers to exploit as defenses have become so well organised.


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    #56
    .ak
    Registered Users Posts: 30,308 Mod ✭✭✭✭.ak


    Your step is also important. I play right wing mostly because I can step off my right, but not so well off my left, so it makes cutting back in a little easier.


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    #57
    GiftofGab
    Registered Users Posts: 2,369 ✭✭✭GiftofGab


    stephen_n wrote: »
    I think this has something to do with the speed of the ball through hands left to right, left wingers will get passed to more often, as in when a backline move is going left (most players are right handed) it moves quicker, therefore more chance of space for a smaller faster winger to attack. Right wings are bigger and stronger as it suits crossfield kicks and better for bursting through tackles when needed. Though these issues have lessened with professionalism, the ability to pass to both sides with similar speed an accuracy has improved and there are less and less small wingers about.

    Spot on. Left wingers tend to see alot more ball in hand than right wingers.

    I also think your kicking game plays a role too. I think its important to have a right winger that can kick off his left foot too.


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    #58
    Thud
    Registered Users Posts: 2,552 ✭✭✭Thud


    attacks on the narrow blindside of a scrum are generally more of an option on the right side as the scrum halves will be lined up on the left of the scrum


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    #59
    Buer
    Registered Users Posts: 24,197 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    GiftofGab wrote: »
    I also think your kicking game plays a role too. I think its important to have a right winger that can kick off his left foot too.

    Does it not tend to be the other way around? Fitzgerald, Zebo, Hickie, Rob Kearney all left footers and, when on the wing, primarily were at 11.


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    #60
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,535 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    You'd want your winger to be a stronger kicker with the foot that is closest to the touchline surely? They should be able to kick the ball out or straight - kicking it in-field is probably not that common from the wing?


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    #61
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,249 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    awec wrote: »
    You'd want your winger to be a stronger kicker with the foot that is closest to the touchline surely? They should be able to kick the ball out or straight - kicking it in-field is probably not that common from the wing?

    i would have though opposite

    a left winger catches the ball in the 22, if kicking right footed his natural angle is already there and "open" to him.
    a left footer kicker must run infield and turn back towards the touchline closing the angle.

    case in point R Kearney takes a lot of irelands right sided penalties as his natural left foot allows a more open angle.


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