As a society are we getting value for money?

AlexisM · 17-06-2014 06:09PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

It's hard to create wealth these days without wealth in the first place, The old hard work and sacrifice days are gone. The door was firmly closed by those who went before and are unwilling to share. Good levels of education are no guarantee now either. Upwards distribution of wealth to the wealthy and huge piles of money removed from the global economy.

But how does suggesting someone on minimum wage should live within their means imply keeping that person in their place (which is what your retort was aimed at)? Increasing minimum wage isn't going to do much to increase social mobility.

steddyeddy · 17-06-2014 06:10PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

They are more of a trap now, Caught in a circle of just hanging on unable to further educate due to loosing hours and alike. And as I said better education is no guarantee either they will get someone to work for what ever wage they offer it's more and more an employers market. Recession used as guise to profiteer.

If they are coming from minimum wage to education there is no guarantee that they will be able to fund themselves through college either unless their parents live nearby.

Amirani · 17-06-2014 06:28PM

Vito Corleone wrote: »

18K + a year (minimum wage in this country) is enough to live on in most cases.

That's for working 40 hours per week, and is probably reasonable to get by on without dependents.

What is problematic is the fact that part-time work (which may be all people can find right now) at minimum wage levels results in an income less that what one can expect from claiming jobseekers allowance, particularly for those under the age of 26. That's not saying minimum wage should be raised, I don't believe it should.

galah · 17-06-2014 09:43PM

Third level education is crazy expensive (~3k per year compared with, for example, ~250 per year in Germany). Child care is crazy expensive, and there are no cheap alternatives (we have no family to help out).

Insurance is expensive. I can't see any value for money in the healthcare system, but I guess that's because half the country isn't paying for it. Mobile phones/broadband are expensive (they talk about 5G, I would prefer to see even an edge signal where I live - we're 10 minutes outside Galway and have no reception at all...)

But we're a small island I guess, the volume just isn't there to make things cheaper.

steddyeddy · 17-06-2014 09:45PM

I don't have kids but some people seem to shell out more for childcare than a mortgage.

smellmepower · 17-06-2014 10:10PM

You would have saved €1.10 on a return journey from Donnybrook to Dun Laoghaire with a Leap card,and Donnybrook to City Centre with a Leap would be €1.95 each way.

Bit stupid moaning about fairs being too much when you aren't even bothering to avail of an easy discount for not paying cash.

steddyeddy · 17-06-2014 10:22PM

smellmepower wrote: »

You would have saved €1.10 on a return journey from Donnybrook to Dun Laoghaire with a Leap card,and Donnybrook to City Centre with a Leap would be €1.95 each way.

Bit stupid moaning about fairs being too much when you aren't even bothering to avail of an easy discount for not paying cash.

I don't take the bus often enough to validate the purchase of a leap card. A bit stupid coming to a conclusion about my financial decision without knowing the frequency of my travels.

mgcf81 · 17-06-2014 10:23PM

Look at petrol ... 1.6L car costs €80 to fill

UPC €80 a month, the TV service is not great the internet appalling

Mobile phones, we are among the most expensive in Europe ...

smellmepower · 17-06-2014 10:38PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

I don't take the bus often enough to validate the purchase of a leap card. A bit stupid coming to a conclusion about my financial decision without knowing the frequency of my travels.

Leap card is precisely aimed at infrequent users,as most people who commute daily will avail of a weekly/monthly or tax saver ticket for even lower fares.Leap is only a tenner (5 refundable deposit + minimum 5 initial travel credit top up.)

Would have paid for itself in a month of trips to town/Dun Laoghaire/wherever and can be used on DART/LUAS for cheaper fares than cash too.

Madness paying more then you need to.

Iwasfrozen · 17-06-2014 11:57PM

Vito Corleone wrote: »

Leap card is very handy. If you want you can lie and get to where you need for cheaper.

That's pretty much theft.

AlekSmart · 18-06-2014 12:01AM

steddyeddy wrote: »

I don't take the bus often enough to validate the purchase of a leap card. A bit stupid coming to a conclusion about my financial decision without knowing the frequency of my travels.

Quite interesting Steddyeddy,that you immediately respond in the negative when the Leapcard alternative is pointed out to you.....I take it you are Not German ? (I ask this as many of my Leapcard users ARE German,and switched over IMMEDIATELY they became aware of it's c.20% Discount over Cash fares)

In your two cases,you could have saved €1.10 on the Return to Dun Laoire and a further .80c on the City Centre/Donnybrook return

My native Cash Fare payers continue to come up with a plethora of reasons for NOT switching and Saving their own money,most of which appear to centre on the loss of one more issue to give-out about.

As SMP quite reasonably explains,the Leapcard is valid on Luas/DART/DublinBus/Bus Eireann Dublin Region/ and a number of Private Sector operators.

The Leapcard (In Purse mode) is specifically intended for those infrequent Public Transport users,whilst it's facility to store multiple operators Period Tickets allows full flexibility for more regular users.

I note that you are in some form of further education...

.I'm doing a PhD funded from an British science orginisation so I'm not wasting your money anyway

....

So perhaps you could avail of the Student Travelcard which would cap your TOTAL daily Busfare spend at €5.00....or,as you are somewhat more comfortable with the "London Model", £Stg 3.99.

It may be worth your while to note that the actual Leapcard itself is FREE,gratis and for nothing....the only non-journey related expenditure is a €5 REFUNDABLE deposit.

So,there ARE indeed,money saving,and flexible alternatives available,and not all restricted to the dreadful State Sector services.

But as you point out yourself,perhaps there are other elements which may be more to the fore in your deliberations.....

Steddyeddy: I get the impression some bus drivers think they're doing me a favour

Rothmans · 18-06-2014 01:10AM

smellmepower wrote: »

You would have saved €1.10 on a return journey from Donnybrook to Dun Laoghaire with a Leap card,and Donnybrook to City Centre with a Leap would be €1.95 each way.

Bit stupid moaning about fairs being too much when you aren't even bothering to avail of an easy discount for not paying cash.

Ya see I've never bought this argument.

The cash fare is still the cash fare. You can get all the discounts you want with your leap card, but I'm only concerned with the fare I have to pay.

I really can't see the benefit of the leap card. It certainly isn't speed. Cash is still quicker than leap on Dublin bus, Ive never seen it in use on IE or BE, and its no difference on the LUAS.

The only advantage that people seem to come up with is that the leap card is valid on DB, LUAS and DART, some commuter routes on IE, and some BE commuter routes. But the thing is, cash is also valid on all of these services, plus absolutely every other form of transport. So cash wins out here aswell.

Basically, I think the leapcard has offered absolutely no advantage, other than for DB to jack up prices. Again. Surprise, surprise.

The only difference for me is that I've pretty much stopped using DB, save the rare occasion. You could say I could make savings by not using cash, but I don't want to as cash is faster, universal and accepted by all service providers. The leap card on the other hand is slower, and is realistically only accepted by a minority of service providers. Just another unwelcome card trying to get into my wallet.

On the flip side you could argue that the leap card has saved me a fortune ironically, as I now just take the 15 - 20 minute walk into town, whereas, when the cash fare was €1.20 I had no problem paying, but now at €1.80 I cannot justify paying that to get into town.

steddyeddy · 18-06-2014 01:27AM

AlekSmart wrote: »

Quite interesting Steddyeddy,that you immediately respond in the negative when the Leapcard alternative is pointed out to you.....I take it you are Not German ? (I ask this as many of my Leapcard users ARE German,and switched over IMMEDIATELY they became aware of it's c.20% Discount over Cash fares)

Yes it's interesting alight but not for the reasons you stated. It's simple psychology. The poster in question asserted that "it's a bit stupid moaning ect ect" Starting on the negative is the best way to ensure a negative response. No I am not German.

In your two cases,you could have saved €1.10 on the Return to Dun Laoire and a further .80c on the City Centre/Donnybrook return

My native Cash Fare payers continue to come up with a plethora of reasons for NOT switching and Saving their own money,most of which appear to centre on the loss of one more issue to give-out about.

As SMP quite reasonably explains,the Leapcard is valid on Luas/DART/DublinBus/Bus Eireann Dublin Region/ and a number of Private Sector operators.

The Leapcard (In Purse mode) is specifically intended for those infrequent Public Transport users,whilst it's facility to store multiple operators Period Tickets allows full flexibility for more regular users.

Fantastic.

I note that you are in some form of further education...

....

So perhaps you could avail of the Student Travelcard which would cap your TOTAL daily Busfare spend at €5.00....or,as you are somewhat more comfortable with the "London Model", £Stg 3.99.

Yes I will look it up.

It may be worth your while to note that the actual Leapcard itself is FREE,gratis and for nothing....the only non-journey related expenditure is a €5 REFUNDABLE deposit.

So,there ARE indeed,money saving,and flexible alternatives available,and not all restricted to the dreadful State Sector services.

Yes there are but I do think that Dublin bus is still terrible value for money.

But as you point out yourself,perhaps there are other elements which may be more to the fore in your deliberations.....

Yes as I said the service is terrible and some of the drivers are rude. Also I like the walk. I'm fortunate enough to live beside work and live about 30 mins walk from the city centre.

steddyeddy · 18-06-2014 01:29AM

Rothmans wrote: »

Ya see I've never bought this argument.

The cash fare is still the cash fare. You can get all the discounts you want with your leap card, but I'm only concerned with the fare I have to pay.

I really can't see the benefit of the leap card. It certainly isn't speed. Cash is still quicker than leap on Dublin bus, Ive never seen it in use on IE or BE, and its no difference on the LUAS.

The only advantage that people seem to come up with is that the leap card is valid on DB, LUAS and DART, some commuter routes on IE, and some BE commuter routes. But the thing is, cash is also valid on all of these services, plus absolutely every other form of transport. So cash wins out here aswell.

Basically, I think the leapcard has offered absolutely no advantage, other than for DB to jack up prices. Again. Surprise, surprise.

The only difference for me is that I've pretty much stopped using DB, save the rare occasion. You could say I could make savings by not using cash, but I don't want to as cash is faster, universal and accepted by all service providers. The leap card on the other hand is slower, and is realistically only accepted by a minority of service providers. Just another unwelcome card trying to get into my wallet.

On the flip side you could argue that the leap card has saved me a fortune ironically, as I now just take the 15 - 20 minute walk into town, whereas, when the cash fare was €1.20 I had no problem paying, but now at €1.80 I cannot justify paying that to get into town.

That's it for me. I just can't justify the rip off price of the bus service.

steddyeddy · 18-06-2014 01:30AM

smellmepower wrote: »

Leap card is precisely aimed at infrequent users,as most people who commute daily will avail of a weekly/monthly or tax saver ticket for even lower fares.Leap is only a tenner (5 refundable deposit + minimum 5 initial travel credit top up.)

Would have paid for itself in a month of trips to town/Dun Laoghaire/wherever and can be used on DART/LUAS for cheaper fares than cash too.

Madness paying more then you need to.

One poster is saying the leap is free. How much is it exactly?

looking_around · 18-06-2014 01:41AM

steddyeddy wrote: »

One poster is saying the leap is free. How much is it exactly?

according to the site it's free, but you have to buy a top up.

Similar to if you go to buy a simcard, they're free but you have to buy the 20€ credit with it.

steddyeddy · 18-06-2014 01:44AM

looking_around wrote: »

according to the site it's free, but you have to buy a top up.

Similar to if you go to buy a simcard, they're free but you have to buy the 20€ credit with it.

Thanks for the info!

The_Captain · 18-06-2014 12:48PM

Site says there's a €5 fully "refundable deposit" required?

What the hell does that mean? Return the card to Dublin Bus for your €5 back?

Valetta · 18-06-2014 12:57PM

The_Captain wrote: »

Site says there's a €5 fully "refundable deposit" required?

What the hell does that mean? Return the card to Dublin Bus for your €5 back?

Exactly.

If you ever decide to stop using the card, sent it back and you will get your fiver deposit returned.

The_Captain · 18-06-2014 01:21PM

Fair enough.

I would look at that as a €5 fee to buy a card, realistically

Julius Seizure · 18-06-2014 01:34PM

The_Captain wrote: »

Fair enough.

I would look at that as a €5 fee to buy a card, realistically

It's not much of a fee, it's so that you can spend your card to -€5 (say you have 10c left, want to get the nitelink home, everything is closed, you can still touch on and you'l be at -€4.90) And then when you return the card you get the money back. They're not holding it for the sake of holding it. London does this too with oyster cards.

Also worth noting that Ireland isn't the only one making smartcard travel much cheaper than cash, london is what, £3 for a bus ticket? And they're doing away with cash so that everyone needs to pay electronically. It's a natural progression. Also, the Dublin bus "no change" rule is because the buses were being robbed.

The_Captain · 18-06-2014 01:39PM

The card actually sounds decent tbf.

Dublin Bus is still foul though

imitation · 18-06-2014 01:51PM

William F wrote: »

I was just discussing this with my partner the other day when our internet happened to break down.

I went into an internet cafe to get two scans and I was charged 3 euro. I used my laptop in Starbucks and was charged just under 3 euro for a bottle of water.

The laundry service next door to me charges 5 euro for a half an hour drying cycle and another five euro for a wash cycle.

Considering the price of rent in the city and compare all the above essentials with a minimum wage salary and you don't get value for your money.

The prices in this country are unjustified.

In fairness if you go to starbucks your going to pay through the nose. If you want value for money your going to have to search for it, the big brand place on the main street is never going to be cheap in a country where people can afford to pay 3-4 quid for a simple drink.

Most people are going there 2-3 times a week for a drink and a chat and as such its targeted at that prices. Theres no good in complaining that its not as cheap as a cup of instatnt coffee at home because most dont go to starbucks 3 times a day.

Tardful Slakerly II · 18-06-2014 02:21PM

imitation wrote: »

In fairness if you go to starbucks your going to pay through the nose. If you want value for money your going to have to search for it, the big brand place on the main street is never going to be cheap in a country where people can afford to pay 3-4 quid for a simple drink.

Most people are going there 2-3 times a week for a drink and a chat and as such its targeted at that prices. Theres no good in complaining that its not as cheap as a cup of instatnt coffee at home because most dont go to starbucks 3 times a day.

It's more expensive than elsewhere. Then it's overpriced, simple as, no convolution required. And it's crap coffee. Starbucks is about brand and marketing, if you think it's about the "experience" you're a dupe.

Collie D · 18-06-2014 02:38PM

Tardful Slakerly II wrote: »

It's more expensive than elsewhere. Then it's overpriced, simple as, no convolution required. And it's crap coffee. Starbucks is about brand and marketing, if you think it's about the "experience" you're a dupe.

It's not crap IMO. I have probably been to Strbucks three or four times and I'm a caffeine fiend because I do think it's expensive. Plenty of other people obviously disagree that it's crap. Just because a brand is well marketed or popular doesn't instantly make the product crap.

It's the same kind of bull that you get regarding beer. If it's mass produced like Heineken it's obviously made of chemicals and piss. Be "indie" and drink craft beer ignoring the fact that a lot of these places are part of a chain that may or may not be as big as Starbucks or Heineken one day.

steddyeddy · 18-06-2014 02:45PM

Best coffee I has had was picked off a coffee tree and boiled in front of me. Beautiful but tasted more like soup.

Tardful Slakerly II · 18-06-2014 02:51PM

Collie D wrote: »

It's not crap IMO. I have probably been to Strbucks three or four times and I'm a caffeine fiend.Plenty of people obviously disagree that it's crap. Just because a brand is well marketed or peopular doesn't instantly make the product crap.

It's the same kind of bull that you get regarding beer. If it's mass produced like Heineken it's obviously made of chemicals and piss. Be "indie" and drink craft beer ignoring the fact that a lot of these places are part of a chain that may or may not be as big as Starbucks or Heineken one day.

I said nowhere that good marketing instantly made anything crap, did I? That's just trying to put words into my mouth. And the topic is value for money, which you've also had to avoid in your reply.

There's a definite opinion that Heineken is piss water, I'd agree completely too. Is it over priced for what it is? That would be more on topic. I don't know anything about being indie, sorry.

smellmepower · 18-06-2014 02:59PM

L

Rothmans wrote: »

Ya see I've never bought this argument.

The cash fare is still the cash fare. You can get all the discounts you want with your leap card, but I'm only concerned with the fare I have to pay.

I really can't see the benefit of the leap card. It certainly isn't speed. Cash is still quicker than leap on Dublin bus, Ive never seen it in use on IE or BE, and its no difference on the LUAS.

The only advantage that people seem to come up with is that the leap card is valid on DB, LUAS and DART, some commuter routes on IE, and some BE commuter routes. But the thing is, cash is also valid on all of these services, plus absolutely every other form of transport. So cash wins out here aswell.

Basically, I think the leapcard has offered absolutely no advantage, other than for DB to jack up prices. Again. Surprise, surprise.

The only difference for me is that I've pretty much stopped using DB, save the rare occasion. You could say I could make savings by not using cash, but I don't want to as cash is faster, universal and accepted by all service providers. The leap card on the other hand is slower, and is realistically only accepted by a minority of service providers. Just another unwelcome card trying to get into my wallet.

On the flip side you could argue that the leap card has saved me a fortune ironically, as I now just take the 15 - 20 minute walk into town, whereas, when the cash fare was €1.20 I had no problem paying, but now at €1.80 I cannot justify paying that to get into town.

I don't understand your point at all!how does ''cash win out'' when it costs cash payers significantly more to use it? The obvious benefit of the LEAP card is that it offers cheaper fares than cash,doesn't require you to carry and go fumbling about for rogue 5c coins, and for me anyway requires no driver interaction bar a cursory nod (if you are travelling from a outer suburb like Lucan to the City Centre you avoid the line of people paying cash on the left, and just touch your card to the validator on the right hand side of the door.)

Big difference when using Leap on LUAS/DART,as you don't have to waste time arsing about queing to buy a paper ticket at the TVM's.

People just like having something to moan about I suppose!

Collie D · 18-06-2014 03:00PM

Tardful Slakerly II wrote: »

I said nowhere that good marketing instantly made anything crap, did I? That's just trying to put words into my mouth. And the topic is value for money, which you've also had to avoid in your reply.

There's a definite opinion that Heineken is piss water, I'd agree completely too. Is it over priced for what it is? That would be more on topic. I don't know anything about being indie, sorry.

You said Starbucks was about marketing and branding and sold crap coffee. I linked the two from your words. Maybe I misunderstood but it seemed implied

I also did address value for money using he Starbucks example given. I said I'd only been there a handful of times even though I liked my coffee because I thought it was overpriced.

On topic. You get value if you look for it. Recently I paid €140 for a ****hole hotel room in Galway. For that money I'd expect four star and am sure I could have found it. For what I'd been given I would expect to pay no more than fifty. The room was booked by someone else but was more a case of laziness and taking the first thing we found.

Little CuChulainn · 18-06-2014 03:01PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Yesterday I had to get the bus from Donnybrook to Dunlaoghaire and was charged 3.05 each way for the privilege. This is a relatively expensive country but I wouldn't mind that if we got good return for our money. The problem is we usually don't. The bus service is terrible, the drivers can be rude and the buses don't appear to follow a timetable :S.

That's just a small example but ultimately I wonder it's a microcosm of bigger issues. For instance considering the amount we pump into health, education or housing are we getting value for money?

Personally I think there is massive waste in our society and we definitely don't get good value for our money. The three biggest examples of this are third level education, health and transport.

Can you think of any massive wastes of money in this country or do you think we don't pay enough into certain services?

Third level education? Are you for real? What is it now? €3000 for a year? That's for nothing in the grand scheme of things, unless you're going to college for a few years of dossing in a do-nothing course.

As a society are we getting value for money?

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