As a society are we getting value for money?

steddyeddy

Yesterday I had to get the bus from Donnybrook to Dunlaoghaire and was charged 3.05 each way for the privilege. This is a relatively expensive country but I wouldn't mind that if we got good return for our money. The problem is we usually don't. The bus service is terrible, the drivers can be rude and the buses don't appear to follow a timetable :S.

That's just a small example but ultimately I wonder it's a microcosm of bigger issues. For instance considering the amount we pump into health, education or housing are we getting value for money?

Personally I think there is massive waste in our society and we definitely don't get good value for our money. The three biggest examples of this are third level education, health and transport.

Can you think of any massive wastes of money in this country or do you think we don't pay enough into certain services?

pundy

go to a canary island and then you will realise it is a LOT more than just tax that we pay extra for on our goods.

you can get a bottle of whiskey for 8euro in the supermarket for example. the same bottle here costs 32euro (on "special offer"). Pints for a euro, cigarette for 2euro... dinner for 7 including beers, whiskeys and wine was never more than 70euro.


Ireland's ridiculously expensive.

maguic24

Hmmm, are ya working Steddy or should ya be? :pac:

L1m1tless

TV Licence

steddyeddy

maguic24 wrote: »

Hmmm, are ya working Steddy or should ya be? :pac:

I'm doing a PhD funded from an British science orginisation so I'm not wasting your money anyway :pac:

steddyeddy

CowboyDreams wrote: »

TV Licence

Oh dear Jesus yes!!! I forgot that one. The biggest culprit of all.

RoyalMarine

steddyeddy wrote: »

Personally I think there is massive waste in our society and we definitely don't get good value for our money. The two biggest examples of this are third level education, health and transport.

Clearly education, since that's three examples.

Elmo

steddyeddy wrote: »

Yesterday I had to get the bus from Donnybrook to Dunlaoghaire and was charged 3.05 each way for the privilege. This is a relatively expensive country but I wouldn't mind that if we got good return for our money. The problem is we usually don't. The bus service is terrible, the drivers can be rude and the buses don't appear to follow a timetable :S.

That's just a small example but ultimately I wonder it's a microcosm of bigger issues. For instance considering the amount we pump into health, education or housing are we getting value for money?

Personally I think there is massive waste in our society and we definitely don't get good value for our money. The two biggest examples of this are third level education, health and transport.

Can you think of any massive wastes of money in this country or do you think we don't pay enough into certain services?

Reports and consultants. Lots of stuff could be done without complication but for some reason we need a report and consultants to comprehend that report.

The leap card is a good example. The government should have used those travellers with bus passes to test the service. This would

1. Test the Leap Card services for fee paying passengers
2. It would show how often the free service is used by people
3. It would integrate free and paying passengers across all routes
4. It might mean the use of Leap cards in other cities and towns.

maguic24

I'm no tax guru...but from where I'm standing the USC looks like a tax on tax....???:mad:

William F

I was just discussing this with my partner the other day when our internet happened to break down.

I went into an internet cafe to get two scans and I was charged 3 euro. I used my laptop in Starbucks and was charged just under 3 euro for a bottle of water.

The laundry service next door to me charges 5 euro for a half an hour drying cycle and another five euro for a wash cycle.

Considering the price of rent in the city and compare all the above essentials with a minimum wage salary and you don't get value for your money.

The prices in this country are unjustified.

CowboyDreams

CowboyDreams wrote: »

TV Licence

Hi TV License Inspector

Hadouken

Valetta

William F wrote: »

I was just discussing this with my partner the other day when our internet happened to break down.

I went into an internet cafe to get two scans and I was charged 3 euro. I used my laptop in Starbucks and was charged just under 3 euro for a bottle of water.

The laundry service next door to me charges 5 euro for a half an hour drying cycle and another five euro for a wash cycle.

Considering the price of rent in the city and compare all the above essentials with a minimum wage salary and you don't get value for your money.

The prices in this country are unjustified.

Starbucks and laundry shops have to pay rent too.

Also, bottled water and paying for laundry are not essentials, but discretionary spending.

I think we get reasonable value for money. In the example in the OP, I think €6.10 for a once off return journey from Donnybrook to Dun Laoghaire is very good value. I use buses and the luas regularly and have an annual tax-saver ticket which works out at about €13.50 per week- great value in my book.

There is obviously a lot of wastage in the system, but even if it was all eliminated the cost of public services would not be much cheaper.

Comparing us to the Canaries is just nonsense.

steddyeddy

Valetta wrote: »

Starbucks and laundry shops have to pay rent too.

Also, bottled water and paying for laundry are not essentials, but discretionary spending.

I think we get reasonable value for money. In the example in the OP, I think €6.10 for a once off return journey from Donnybrook to Dun Laoghaire is very good value. I use buses and the luas regularly and have an annual tax-saver ticket which works out at about €13.50 per week- great value in my book.

There is obviously a lot of wastage in the system, but even if it was all eliminated the cost of public services would not be much cheaper.

Comparing us to the Canaries is just nonsense.

Are you joking?? Do you think it's good value compared to other countries?

Vito Corleone

Third level education is extremely cheap in this country. I think we get good value for money.

uch

€9 for 24 jax rolls on Thomas street, now thats good value for money

Valetta

steddyeddy wrote: »

Are you joking?? Do you think it's good value compared to other countries?

What other countries?

What are the wages / social welfare rates in these other countries?

Eg. What would it cost for a similar length journey by bus or tube in London?

maguic24

uch wrote: »

€9 for 24 jax rolls on Thomas street, now thats good value for money

€0 for 9 jax rolls stolen borrowed from the jax in Brown Thomas. :pac:

I never EVER done that when I was in college. Ever. :pac:

darkpagandeath

William F wrote: »

I was just discussing this with my partner the other day when our internet happened to break down.

I went into an internet cafe to get two scans and I was charged 3 euro. I used my laptop in Starbucks and was charged just under 3 euro for a bottle of water.

The laundry service next door to me charges 5 euro for a half an hour drying cycle and another five euro for a wash cycle.

Considering the price of rent in the city and compare all the above essentials with a minimum wage salary and you don't get value for your money.

The prices in this country are unjustified.

Problem here is peoples attitudes, if you as a business owner are not making over 100% profit you not making a good profit. And tbh i have no idea how most places are still open here well apart from food stores, You can go online and buy almost anything for a fraction of the price. Its no all rent, rates, wages it’s profiteering as well. How many businesses have taken the opportunity in the recession to get rid of the expensive employees to take on well lower paid replacements because it’s an employers market.

bear1

pundy wrote: »

go to a canary island and then you will realise it is a LOT more than just tax that we pay extra for on our goods.

you can get a bottle of whiskey for 8euro in the supermarket for example. the same bottle here costs 32euro (on "special offer"). Pints for a euro, cigarette for 2euro... dinner for 7 including beers, whiskeys and wine was never more than 70euro.


Ireland's ridiculously expensive.

The Canary Islands are part of a special territory which lies outside the EU.
They are exempt from VAT, they have a tax for some goods and the rest are charged at 5% hence why things are cheaper there.
Can't really compare them tbh.
You would have to compare Ireland to a country of equal value to get an idea of living costs here.

http://www.lowtax.net/information/spain/spain-canary-islands-special-zone.html

steddyeddy

Valetta wrote: »

What other countries?

What are the wages / social welfare rates in these other countries?

Eg. What would it cost for a similar length journey by bus or tube in London?

London transport is certainly expensive but the service is a lot better. There are generally buses every ten minutes in a lot of areas. I wouldn't mind paying a lot if the service were up to scratch.

The_Captain

Valetta wrote: »

I think €6.10 for a once off return journey from Donnybrook to Dun Laoghaire is very good value.

That's insanity. The fact is that we don't live in a world where people can afford to pay Celtic Tiger rates anymore but a lot of businesses don't want to adjust their prices.
So now we have a situation where peoples wages have dropped or people have been made redundant, new taxes and charges have been introduced, but the cost of living hasn't fallen.
In order to 'make savings' (read: maintain an unsustainable profit margin) a load of businesses have reduced their quality of service to utter shít.

That's why Dublin Bus are losing money hand over fist.

But yeah, let's compare our cost of living to London, one of the most expensive cities in the world, where they have much higher employment rates and base wages.

Aglomerado

maguic24 wrote: »

€0 for 9 jax rolls stolen borrowed from the jax in Brown Thomas. :pac:

I never EVER done that when I was in college. Ever. :pac:

Nor did I. The dispensers had padlocks in NUIG.

maguic24

Aglomerado wrote: »

Nor did I. The dispensers had padlocks in NUIG.

Oh. Sucks to be you. :P :pac:

All the toilet roll, yay!!

steddyeddy

Just to defend the business owners, the commercial rents in Dublin are mental. Many haven't dropped significantly since the Celtic tiger. That's another example of absorbent prices being charged. The higher commercial rents also have an affect on the amount we pay for goods and services.

Valetta

steddyeddy wrote: »

London transport is certainly expensive but the service is a lot better. There are generally buses every ten minutes in a lot of areas. I wouldn't mind paying a lot if the service were up to scratch.

But there are generally buses every 10 minutes in a lot of areas in Dublin as well.

How long did you have to wait for your bus to Dun Laoghaire?

Value is just a perception.

Valetta

The_Captain wrote: »

That's insanity. The fact is that we don't live in a world where people can afford to pay Celtic Tiger rates anymore but a lot of businesses don't want to adjust their prices.
So now we have a situation where peoples wages have dropped or people have been made redundant, new taxes and charges have been introduced, but the cost of living hasn't fallen.
In order to 'make savings' (read: maintain an unsustainable profit margin) a load of businesses have reduced their quality of service to utter shít.

That's why Dublin Bus are losing money hand over fist.

But yeah, let's compare our cost of living to London, one of the most expensive cities in the world, where they have much higher employment rates and base wages.

Where would you like to compare us to?

A pint o Guinness

TV licences are terrible.
When I initially arrived, I legitimately thought it was a joke. The concept would baffle just about anyone from outside here.

darkpagandeath

Valetta wrote: »

Where would you like to compare us to?

Don't we get compared to New Zealand?

A pint o Guinness wrote: »

TV licences are terrible.
When I initially arrived, I legitimately thought it was a joke. The concept would baffle just about anyone from outside here.

Ah sure just wait for your internet tax, Sorry i mean broadcast charge.

steddyeddy

Valetta wrote: »

But there are generally buses every 10 minutes in a lot of areas in Dublin as well.

How long did you have to wait for your bus to Dun Laoghaire?

Value is just a perception.

I'll put it this way. I live in and around Donnybrook. The cost from here to Dunlaoghaire would put me off going again. Dunlaoghaire as a town is dying. Many businesses had to shut down due to lack of business and commercial rents. The fact that I have to pay six euro to get to Dunlaoghaire would definitely put me off going any time soon. It pays for the government to subsidise travel where they can. Even when I'm going into Dublin city I walk in and out to avoid the ridiculous bus fare of 2.60 each way for a 20 minute or less drive.

ancapailldorcha

steddyeddy wrote: »

London transport is certainly expensive but the service is a lot better. There are generally buses every ten minutes in a lot of areas. I wouldn't mind paying a lot if the service were up to scratch.

The service I've experienced on non-Irish public transport is incredible compared to Bus Éireann and Dublin Bus. I understand that Ireland isn't the cheapest place to provide these services but when the staff are so horrible to customers it just makes for another reason why I'm glad I left.

steddyeddy

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

The service I've experienced on non-Irish public transport is incredible compared to Bus Éireann and Dublin Bus. I understand that Ireland isn't the cheapest place to provide these services but when the staff are so horrible to customers it just makes for another reason why I'm glad I left.

I get the impression some bus drivers think they're doing me a favour

ancapailldorcha

steddyeddy wrote: »

I get the impression some bus drivers think they're doing me a favour

Don't start me on Dublin Bus's moronic "No Change Given" rule. I can't speak for the present but when I used the loathsome "service" you had to go to O'Connell street for your 20 cents or whatever it was. In London, it's a flat fare no matter how long the journey. You can't buy a ticket on the bus but there is a kiosk at every stop. Couldn't be simpler. Then there's Oyster cards.

darkpagandeath

They are probably annoyed as they don't get tipped enough.

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy

steddyeddy wrote: »

Even when I'm going into Dublin city I walk in and out to avoid the ridiculous bus fare of 2.60 each way for a 20 minute or less drive.

20 minute drive so that's gotta be at least 40mins of a walk, if not more?

Whether or not you think public transport is value for money, I'd place a higher value than €5.20 on 80+ mins of my free time.

The_Captain

Valetta wrote: »

Where would you like to compare us to?

I wouldn't like to compare us to another country at all because there's never going to be a good comparison.

If you look at the cost of living index, we're in the top ten no matter how you try to calculate the data, but in terms of GDP we're barely in the top fifty, the country is massively in debt, and we have one of the highest levels of unemployment in Europe.

Maphisto

Elmo wrote: »

Reports and consultants. Lots of stuff could be done without complication but for some reason we need a report and consultants to comprehend that report.

The leap card is a good example. The government should have used those travellers with bus passes to test the service. This would

1. Test the Leap Card services for fee paying passengers
2. It would show how often the free service is used by people
3. It would integrate free and paying passengers across all routes
4. It might mean the use of Leap cards in other cities and towns.

Agreed. I wonder sometimes if we don't get the kind of government/society that we want or deserve. There's quite a lot of special interests and even cronyism and there must be a huge attraction in kicking a contentious decision into the long grass or leaving it for the next guy.

There used to be a saying where I used to work - If you don't make a decision, it can't be a wrong one. Or - Getting something done is like pi$$ing yourself in a dark suit. You get a nice warm feeling but nobody really notices.

looking_around

Duracell Bunny wrote: »

20 minute drive so that's gotta be at least 40mins of a walk, if not more?

Whether or not you think public transport is value for money, I'd place a higher value than €5.20 on 80+ mins of my free time.

well, you're only saving yourself 40minutes. (it only takes 20min longer to walk than bus).
and the walk could be used as your daily exercise
___

A weekly ticket from buttevant to cork, is 60quid.

that's 60quid, to get into cork earliest 9am(so not useful for most jobs.)
60quid to wait in the rain for a bus that may come early or late.
60quid, to risk getting told "sorry bus is full, wait for the next one".

yeah, I consider that great savings over a car :rolleyes: (public transport is ridiculous here, although it isn't too bad in the cities themselves.)

TheDoc

pundy wrote: »

go to a canary island and then you will realise it is a LOT more than just tax that we pay extra for on our goods.

you can get a bottle of whiskey for 8euro in the supermarket for example. the same bottle here costs 32euro (on "special offer"). Pints for a euro, cigarette for 2euro... dinner for 7 including beers, whiskeys and wine was never more than 70euro.


Ireland's ridiculously expensive.

I lived in Gran Canaria with the misses for a summer. Went with about 2 grand in the pocket and assumed I'd have to pickup a job.

turns out we had a three month holiday, enjoying lovely meals out, drinking myself senseless every second night and watching every kick of the Euros on that year.

But obviously their came some cons to the whole situation. There is no employment law there, so if you did work you most likely got shafted along with the complete lack of infrastructure, for even simple things like broadband.

Enjoyed my summer, wouldnt make a permenant move though

Ray Palmer

William F wrote: »

I was just discussing this with my partner the other day when our internet happened to break down.

I went into an internet cafe to get two scans and I was charged 3 euro. I used my laptop in Starbucks and was charged just under 3 euro for a bottle of water.

The laundry service next door to me charges 5 euro for a half an hour drying cycle and another five euro for a wash cycle.

Considering the price of rent in the city and compare all the above essentials with a minimum wage salary and you don't get value for your money.

The prices in this country are unjustified.

All rented accommodation has to provide laundry facilities so why people use the laundry is a mystery to me.

You go to get a scan done in any country in an internet shop and it will be about that price. Starbucks are a complete rip off in every country they are just don't buy anything from them.

The things is the country has a small population and outside of the cities you get very bad value for money servicing areas. You have a lot of people living in remote areas expecting the same coverage as somebody in an urban environment. Massive waste as a result.

Never forget the Irish public insist on lots of waste of money. Like the barrier change on the M50, the scrapping of voting machines etc...

Valetta

The_Captain wrote: »

I wouldn't like to compare us to another country at all because there's never going to be a good comparison.

If you look at the cost of living index, we're in the top ten no matter how you try to calculate the data, but in terms of GDP we're barely in the top fifty, the country is massively in debt, and we have one of the highest levels of unemployment in Europe.

That is my point.

When I mentioned London it was an example of why you can't compare with other countries.

The question posed in the thread title is "are we getting value for money?", but the OP does not say what they are basing the term "value" on.

A lot of our spending is discretionary (see the poster earlier giving out about paying nearly €3 for a bottle of water). I don't think that is good value, so I don't pay it.

On the other hand, If I am going out for a drink my pub of choice charges me €5.20 for a bottle of beer. I go to this particular pub as it suits me regarding atmosphere, food if I want it, sport on TV etc. I consider that good value, despite the fact that there are other pubs in the vicinity charging much less.

TheDoc

In regards even just internet, our communications minister will happily peddle how we have great coverage, great speeds and infrastructure that is rapidly growing.

Obviously anyone with an ounce of interest in that field knows this is horse****. For some personal examples.

Living in Donabate, had choice of two ISP providers. Both of whom rented the line from Eircom. Paying €67 a month for a 24mbps ADSL line. To clarify, this technology first came into Ireland in 2000.

This technology first reached main EU cities in 1997.

In 2014, charged €67 a month, for 20+ year old technology.

And the best part, nothing but troubles for the 12 months I was there. So much so I didn't renew my lease, and moved to Swords, where I had a rafter of choice. Paying €25 a month on a deal with UPC for a 150mb line Fibre, which actually IS one of the best packages you can get in Europe. However Eircom for some reason seem to be able to get injunctions on UPC moving into areas where Eircom have a foothold. It's so counter productive.

BT had fibre lines in this country from the late 90's, they are all i nthe ground here, idle. Why? Because the courts granted an injunction in favour of Eircom, that BT couldn't turn them on for competitive grounds. ie Eircom dont like spending money upgrading infrastructure, and would be wiped out. BT gave two fingers and left the country, leaving behind fibre cables, still sitting idle, nearly all over the country.

And the comparison? Well in Sweden you can get a 500mb line for a juicy €10 a month.

I struggle to think of ANYTHING here, that is somewhat cheaper then abroad, when you consider our population.

steddyeddy

TheDoc wrote: »

In regards even just internet, our communications minister will happily peddle how we have great coverage, great speeds and infrastructure that is rapidly growing.

Obviously anyone with an ounce of interest in that field knows this is horse****. For some personal examples.

Living in Donabate, had choice of two ISP providers. Both of whom rented the line from Eircom. Paying €67 a month for a 24mbps ADSL line. To clarify, this technology first came into Ireland in 2000.

This technology first reached main EU cities in 1997.

In 2014, charged €67 a month, for 20+ year old technology.

And the best part, nothing but troubles for the 12 months I was there. So much so I didn't renew my lease, and moved to Swords, where I had a rafter of choice. Paying €25 a month on a deal with UPC for a 150mb line Fibre, which actually IS one of the best packages you can get in Europe. However Eircom for some reason seem to be able to get injunctions on UPC moving into areas where Eircom have a foothold. It's so counter productive.

BT had fibre lines in this country from the late 90's, they are all i nthe ground here, idle. Why? Because the courts granted an injunction in favour of Eircom, that BT couldn't turn them on for competitive grounds. ie Eircom dont like spending money upgrading infrastructure, and would be wiped out. BT gave two fingers and left the country, leaving behind fibre cables, still sitting idle, nearly all over the country.

And the comparison? Well in Sweden you can get a 500mb line for a juicy €10 a month.

I struggle to think of ANYTHING here, that is somewhat cheaper then abroad, when you consider our population.

That's bizarre logic by the judge there!

Specialun

If you work for 40 Mins in a min wage job then you can barely afford a pint in some parts of dublin

Vito Corleone

Specialun wrote: »

If you work for 40 Mins in a min wage job then you can barely afford a pint in some parts of dublin

If anything, the minimum wage is too high in this country.

pundy

TheDoc wrote: »

I lived in Gran Canaria with the misses for a summer. Went with about 2 grand in the pocket and assumed I'd have to pickup a job.

turns out we had a three month holiday, enjoying lovely meals out, drinking myself senseless every second night and watching every kick of the Euros on that year.

But obviously their came some cons to the whole situation. There is no employment law there, so if you did work you most likely got shafted along with the complete lack of infrastructure, for even simple things like broadband.

Enjoyed my summer, wouldnt make a permenant move though

im planning on doing it for a year in Tenerife, live off the profit i'll make from the extortionate rent i'll be able to charge for my city centre apartment that i didnt buy in the boom. i wont have to work a day in tenerife, and i'll live like a king because everything over there is dirt cheap - including the rent.

it doesnt really matter where else you compare ireland to, even Germany, mainland spain, portugal, really ANYWHERE is cheaper for everything nearly.

Ireland is an expensive kip, and you only have to go on holidays to realise it. there are resorts in spain for example where one end would be mainly irish tourists, and one end would be german and british tourists. the irish end is ALWAYS more expensive, why? because we're FOOLS who will pay it without question, and there's something seriously wrong when you're buying a pint for 3euro on holidays and you think it's cheap.

so , no, we are not getting value for money (across the board) and we never will unless we start being a bit more like our british cousins who just simply refuse to pay extorionate prices for everything.

i literally bought 2 tubs of hummus and a box of breadsticks the other day and it was 6euro something.

RIDICULOUS

Specialun

Vito Corleone wrote: »

If anything, the minimum wage is too high in this country.

Its now taxed isnt it?

steddyeddy

Vito Corleone wrote: »

If anything, the minimum wage is too high in this country.

How do you expect people to live?

Vito Corleone

Specialun wrote: »

Its now taxed isnt it?

I see no reason why it wouldn't be.

steddyeddy wrote: »

How do you expect people to live?

Within their means.

steddyeddy

Vito Corleone wrote: »

Within their means.

Well that means nothing. It also makes social mobility a lot harder.

darkpagandeath

Vito Corleone wrote: »

I see no reason why it wouldn't be.



Within their means.

That sounds a lot like the old don't get ideas above your station.. Who decides what the means are now ? Celtic tiger prices have not gone down only up. So clearly the minimum wage is to low.

Tarzana

steddyeddy wrote: »

Yesterday I had to get the bus from Donnybrook to Dunlaoghaire and was charged 3.05 each way for the privilege. This is a relatively expensive country but I wouldn't mind that if we got good return for our money. The problem is we usually don't. The bus service is terrible, the drivers can be rude and the buses don't appear to follow a timetable :S.

That's just a small example but ultimately I wonder it's a microcosm of bigger issues. For instance considering the amount we pump into health, education or housing are we getting value for money?

Personally I think there is massive waste in our society and we definitely don't get good value for our money. The three biggest examples of this are third level education, health and transport.

Can you think of any massive wastes of money in this country or do you think we don't pay enough into certain services?

How is education not good value for money in this country. Even considering registration fees, it's cheap.

Unless you mean we're producing substandard graduates?