As a society are we getting value for money?

ancapailldorcha · 17-06-2014 04:10PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

I get the impression some bus drivers think they're doing me a favour

Don't start me on Dublin Bus's moronic "No Change Given" rule. I can't speak for the present but when I used the loathsome "service" you had to go to O'Connell street for your 20 cents or whatever it was. In London, it's a flat fare no matter how long the journey. You can't buy a ticket on the bus but there is a kiosk at every stop. Couldn't be simpler. Then there's Oyster cards.

darkpagandeath · 17-06-2014 04:15PM

They are probably annoyed as they don't get tipped enough.

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy · 17-06-2014 04:17PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Even when I'm going into Dublin city I walk in and out to avoid the ridiculous bus fare of 2.60 each way for a 20 minute or less drive.

20 minute drive so that's gotta be at least 40mins of a walk, if not more?

Whether or not you think public transport is value for money, I'd place a higher value than €5.20 on 80+ mins of my free time.

The_Captain · 17-06-2014 04:18PM

Valetta wrote: »

Where would you like to compare us to?

I wouldn't like to compare us to another country at all because there's never going to be a good comparison.

If you look at the cost of living index, we're in the top ten no matter how you try to calculate the data, but in terms of GDP we're barely in the top fifty, the country is massively in debt, and we have one of the highest levels of unemployment in Europe.

Maphisto · 17-06-2014 04:21PM

Elmo wrote: »

Reports and consultants. Lots of stuff could be done without complication but for some reason we need a report and consultants to comprehend that report.

The leap card is a good example. The government should have used those travellers with bus passes to test the service. This would

1. Test the Leap Card services for fee paying passengers
2. It would show how often the free service is used by people
3. It would integrate free and paying passengers across all routes
4. It might mean the use of Leap cards in other cities and towns.

Agreed. I wonder sometimes if we don't get the kind of government/society that we want or deserve. There's quite a lot of special interests and even cronyism and there must be a huge attraction in kicking a contentious decision into the long grass or leaving it for the next guy.

There used to be a saying where I used to work - If you don't make a decision, it can't be a wrong one. Or - Getting something done is like pi$$ing yourself in a dark suit. You get a nice warm feeling but nobody really notices.

looking_around · 17-06-2014 04:25PM

Duracell Bunny wrote: »

20 minute drive so that's gotta be at least 40mins of a walk, if not more?

Whether or not you think public transport is value for money, I'd place a higher value than €5.20 on 80+ mins of my free time.

well, you're only saving yourself 40minutes. (it only takes 20min longer to walk than bus).
and the walk could be used as your daily exercise

___

A weekly ticket from buttevant to cork, is 60quid.

that's 60quid, to get into cork earliest 9am(so not useful for most jobs.)
60quid to wait in the rain for a bus that may come early or late.
60quid, to risk getting told "sorry bus is full, wait for the next one".

yeah, I consider that great savings over a car :rolleyes: (public transport is ridiculous here, although it isn't too bad in the cities themselves.)

TheDoc · 17-06-2014 04:25PM

pundy wrote: »

go to a canary island and then you will realise it is a LOT more than just tax that we pay extra for on our goods.

you can get a bottle of whiskey for 8euro in the supermarket for example. the same bottle here costs 32euro (on "special offer"). Pints for a euro, cigarette for 2euro... dinner for 7 including beers, whiskeys and wine was never more than 70euro.

Ireland's ridiculously expensive.

I lived in Gran Canaria with the misses for a summer. Went with about 2 grand in the pocket and assumed I'd have to pickup a job.

turns out we had a three month holiday, enjoying lovely meals out, drinking myself senseless every second night and watching every kick of the Euros on that year.

But obviously their came some cons to the whole situation. There is no employment law there, so if you did work you most likely got shafted along with the complete lack of infrastructure, for even simple things like broadband.

Enjoyed my summer, wouldnt make a permenant move though

Ray Palmer · 17-06-2014 04:30PM

William F wrote: »

I was just discussing this with my partner the other day when our internet happened to break down.

I went into an internet cafe to get two scans and I was charged 3 euro. I used my laptop in Starbucks and was charged just under 3 euro for a bottle of water.

The laundry service next door to me charges 5 euro for a half an hour drying cycle and another five euro for a wash cycle.

Considering the price of rent in the city and compare all the above essentials with a minimum wage salary and you don't get value for your money.

The prices in this country are unjustified.

All rented accommodation has to provide laundry facilities so why people use the laundry is a mystery to me.

You go to get a scan done in any country in an internet shop and it will be about that price. Starbucks are a complete rip off in every country they are just don't buy anything from them.

The things is the country has a small population and outside of the cities you get very bad value for money servicing areas. You have a lot of people living in remote areas expecting the same coverage as somebody in an urban environment. Massive waste as a result.

Never forget the Irish public insist on lots of waste of money. Like the barrier change on the M50, the scrapping of voting machines etc...

Valetta · 17-06-2014 04:30PM

The_Captain wrote: »

I wouldn't like to compare us to another country at all because there's never going to be a good comparison.

If you look at the cost of living index, we're in the top ten no matter how you try to calculate the data, but in terms of GDP we're barely in the top fifty, the country is massively in debt, and we have one of the highest levels of unemployment in Europe.

That is my point.

When I mentioned London it was an example of why you can't compare with other countries.

The question posed in the thread title is "are we getting value for money?", but the OP does not say what they are basing the term "value" on.

A lot of our spending is discretionary (see the poster earlier giving out about paying nearly €3 for a bottle of water). I don't think that is good value, so I don't pay it.

On the other hand, If I am going out for a drink my pub of choice charges me €5.20 for a bottle of beer. I go to this particular pub as it suits me regarding atmosphere, food if I want it, sport on TV etc. I consider that good value, despite the fact that there are other pubs in the vicinity charging much less.

TheDoc · 17-06-2014 04:31PM

In regards even just internet, our communications minister will happily peddle how we have great coverage, great speeds and infrastructure that is rapidly growing.

Obviously anyone with an ounce of interest in that field knows this is horse****. For some personal examples.

Living in Donabate, had choice of two ISP providers. Both of whom rented the line from Eircom. Paying €67 a month for a 24mbps ADSL line. To clarify, this technology first came into Ireland in 2000.

This technology first reached main EU cities in 1997.

In 2014, charged €67 a month, for 20+ year old technology.

And the best part, nothing but troubles for the 12 months I was there. So much so I didn't renew my lease, and moved to Swords, where I had a rafter of choice. Paying €25 a month on a deal with UPC for a 150mb line Fibre, which actually IS one of the best packages you can get in Europe. However Eircom for some reason seem to be able to get injunctions on UPC moving into areas where Eircom have a foothold. It's so counter productive.

BT had fibre lines in this country from the late 90's, they are all i nthe ground here, idle. Why? Because the courts granted an injunction in favour of Eircom, that BT couldn't turn them on for competitive grounds. ie Eircom dont like spending money upgrading infrastructure, and would be wiped out. BT gave two fingers and left the country, leaving behind fibre cables, still sitting idle, nearly all over the country.

And the comparison? Well in Sweden you can get a 500mb line for a juicy €10 a month.

I struggle to think of ANYTHING here, that is somewhat cheaper then abroad, when you consider our population.

steddyeddy · 17-06-2014 04:34PM

TheDoc wrote: »

In regards even just internet, our communications minister will happily peddle how we have great coverage, great speeds and infrastructure that is rapidly growing.

Obviously anyone with an ounce of interest in that field knows this is horse****. For some personal examples.

Living in Donabate, had choice of two ISP providers. Both of whom rented the line from Eircom. Paying €67 a month for a 24mbps ADSL line. To clarify, this technology first came into Ireland in 2000.

This technology first reached main EU cities in 1997.

In 2014, charged €67 a month, for 20+ year old technology.

And the best part, nothing but troubles for the 12 months I was there. So much so I didn't renew my lease, and moved to Swords, where I had a rafter of choice. Paying €25 a month on a deal with UPC for a 150mb line Fibre, which actually IS one of the best packages you can get in Europe. However Eircom for some reason seem to be able to get injunctions on UPC moving into areas where Eircom have a foothold. It's so counter productive.

BT had fibre lines in this country from the late 90's, they are all i nthe ground here, idle. Why? Because the courts granted an injunction in favour of Eircom, that BT couldn't turn them on for competitive grounds. ie Eircom dont like spending money upgrading infrastructure, and would be wiped out. BT gave two fingers and left the country, leaving behind fibre cables, still sitting idle, nearly all over the country.

And the comparison? Well in Sweden you can get a 500mb line for a juicy €10 a month.

I struggle to think of ANYTHING here, that is somewhat cheaper then abroad, when you consider our population.

That's bizarre logic by the judge there!

Specialun · 17-06-2014 04:37PM

If you work for 40 Mins in a min wage job then you can barely afford a pint in some parts of dublin

Vito Corleone · 17-06-2014 04:38PM

Specialun wrote: »

If you work for 40 Mins in a min wage job then you can barely afford a pint in some parts of dublin

If anything, the minimum wage is too high in this country.

pundy · 17-06-2014 04:40PM

TheDoc wrote: »

I lived in Gran Canaria with the misses for a summer. Went with about 2 grand in the pocket and assumed I'd have to pickup a job.

turns out we had a three month holiday, enjoying lovely meals out, drinking myself senseless every second night and watching every kick of the Euros on that year.

But obviously their came some cons to the whole situation. There is no employment law there, so if you did work you most likely got shafted along with the complete lack of infrastructure, for even simple things like broadband.

Enjoyed my summer, wouldnt make a permenant move though

im planning on doing it for a year in Tenerife, live off the profit i'll make from the extortionate rent i'll be able to charge for my city centre apartment that i didnt buy in the boom. i wont have to work a day in tenerife, and i'll live like a king because everything over there is dirt cheap - including the rent.

it doesnt really matter where else you compare ireland to, even Germany, mainland spain, portugal, really ANYWHERE is cheaper for everything nearly.

Ireland is an expensive kip, and you only have to go on holidays to realise it. there are resorts in spain for example where one end would be mainly irish tourists, and one end would be german and british tourists. the irish end is ALWAYS more expensive, why? because we're FOOLS who will pay it without question, and there's something seriously wrong when you're buying a pint for 3euro on holidays and you think it's cheap.

so , no, we are not getting value for money (across the board) and we never will unless we start being a bit more like our british cousins who just simply refuse to pay extorionate prices for everything.

i literally bought 2 tubs of hummus and a box of breadsticks the other day and it was 6euro something.

RIDICULOUS

Specialun · 17-06-2014 04:51PM

Vito Corleone wrote: »

If anything, the minimum wage is too high in this country.

Its now taxed isnt it?

steddyeddy · 17-06-2014 04:53PM

Vito Corleone wrote: »

If anything, the minimum wage is too high in this country.

How do you expect people to live?

Vito Corleone · 17-06-2014 04:54PM

Specialun wrote: »

Its now taxed isnt it?

I see no reason why it wouldn't be.

steddyeddy wrote: »

How do you expect people to live?

Within their means.

steddyeddy · 17-06-2014 04:56PM

Vito Corleone wrote: »

Within their means.

Well that means nothing. It also makes social mobility a lot harder.

darkpagandeath · 17-06-2014 05:00PM

Vito Corleone wrote: »

I see no reason why it wouldn't be.

Within their means.

That sounds a lot like the old don't get ideas above your station.. Who decides what the means are now ? Celtic tiger prices have not gone down only up. So clearly the minimum wage is to low.

Tarzana · 17-06-2014 05:01PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Yesterday I had to get the bus from Donnybrook to Dunlaoghaire and was charged 3.05 each way for the privilege. This is a relatively expensive country but I wouldn't mind that if we got good return for our money. The problem is we usually don't. The bus service is terrible, the drivers can be rude and the buses don't appear to follow a timetable :S.

That's just a small example but ultimately I wonder it's a microcosm of bigger issues. For instance considering the amount we pump into health, education or housing are we getting value for money?

Personally I think there is massive waste in our society and we definitely don't get good value for our money. The three biggest examples of this are third level education, health and transport.

Can you think of any massive wastes of money in this country or do you think we don't pay enough into certain services?

How is education not good value for money in this country. Even considering registration fees, it's cheap.

Unless you mean we're producing substandard graduates?

steddyeddy · 17-06-2014 05:08PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

That sounds a lot like the old don't get ideas above your station.. Who decides what the means are now ? Celtic tiger prices have not gone down only up. So clearly the minimum wage is to low.

In my experience it's uttered by those who had someone else pay for their means (parents ect).

Vito Corleone · 17-06-2014 05:09PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

That sounds a lot like the old don't get ideas above your station.. Who decides what the means are now ? Celtic tiger prices have not gone down only up. So clearly the minimum wage is to low.

Ireland has the 7th highest minimum wage in the world. The minimum wage has increased greater than price levels in recent years. Look it up.

darkpagandeath wrote: »

That sounds a lot like the old don't get ideas above your station..

Plenty of people have managed to get "above their stations" as you put it through hard work, I don't see why increasing an already very high minimum wage is necessary.

18K + a year (minimum wage in this country) is enough to live on in most cases.

Vito Corleone · 17-06-2014 05:15PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

In my experience it's uttered by those who had someone else pay for their means (parents ect).

I'll respond to this later, I'm too busy at the moment getting a foot massage from our butler, and this evening I'll be off playing backgammon in my private jet that my parents got me. :rolleyes:

darkpagandeath · 17-06-2014 05:18PM

Vito Corleone wrote: »

Ireland has the 7th highest minimum wage in the world. The minimum wage has increased greater than price levels in recent years. Look it up.

Plenty of people have managed to get "above their stations" as you put it through hard work, I don't see why increasing an already very high minimum wage is necessary.

18K + a year (minimum wage in this country) is enough to live on in most cases.

Were will you be living on that ? back at the parents house ? I agree that is a reasonable wage if you do live at home and don't contribute much to bills rent.

steddyeddy · 17-06-2014 05:19PM

Vito Corleone wrote: »

I'll respond to this later, I'm too busy at the moment getting a foot massage from our butler, and this evening I'll be off playing backgammon in my private jet that my parents got me. :rolleyes:

It wasn't necessarily directed at you. It's just a commentary based on my experience in these matters. Many people who complain about the pay of lower paid workers never experienced real poverty.

It's not an insult saying that someone never lived in poverty but it puts their opinion in perspective. Again I don't know your past.

AlexisM · 17-06-2014 05:49PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

That sounds a lot like the old don't get ideas above your station..

It's actually the exact opposite. It would be great for society if lots of people had 'ideas above their station' and worked hard to achieve upward social mobility - I don't think anyone is objecting to that at all. It's not really reasonable to have ideas above your station if you just expect a higher lot in life to be handed to you though, is it?

darkpagandeath · 17-06-2014 05:56PM

AlexisM wrote: »

It's actually the exact opposite. It would be great for society if lots of people had 'ideas above their station' and worked hard to achieve upward social mobility - I don't think anyone is objecting to that at all. It's not really reasonable to have ideas above your station if you just expect a higher lot in life to be handed to you though, is it?

It's hard to create wealth these days without wealth in the first place, The old hard work and sacrifice days are gone. The door was firmly closed by those who went before and are unwilling to share. Good levels of education are no guarantee now either. Upwards distribution of wealth to the wealthy and huge piles of money removed from the global economy.

Tardful Slakerly II · 17-06-2014 05:57PM

Vito Corleone wrote: »

Ireland has the 7th highest minimum wage in the world. The minimum wage has increased greater than price levels in recent years. Look it up.

Plenty of people have managed to get "above their stations" as you put it through hard work, I don't see why increasing an already very high minimum wage is necessary.

18K + a year (minimum wage in this country) is enough to live on in most cases.

I've lived on minimum wage, it's not too high, I would say it's just about enough for people working full time to be able to have the basics of a life, and that's for someone with no obligations.

A lot of people on minimum wage have their hours cut, or have to work flexi/part time. Nobody on min wage makes 18K+. 16 to 17 maybe, if they're full time. And nobody gets overtime, employers hire part time staff instead, so an increased rate never gets paid, the extra part time staff will nip an hour off everyone else here or there too.

If you think minimum wage is some stepping stone I'm going to have to disabuse you of that notion. For many people it's all they can make, and with a large unemployed workforce there is no security for anyone, let alone any kind of raise. And with the cost of rents, services etc. you're really talking nonsense.

Working like a slave to line business owner's pockets for peanuts isn't right, proper or healthy in any sense whatsoever, for society, the economy or for people.

steddyeddy · 17-06-2014 06:03PM

AlexisM wrote: »

It's actually the exact opposite. It would be great for society if lots of people had 'ideas above their station' and worked hard to achieve upward social mobility - I don't think anyone is objecting to that at all. It's not really reasonable to have ideas above your station if you just expect a higher lot in life to be handed to you though, is it?

Yes a lot of people have large ambition and it's great to see but the days when minimum wage jobs were a stepping stone to a high pay job are dying out.

darkpagandeath · 17-06-2014 06:07PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Yes a lot of people have large ambition and it's great to see but the days when minimum wage jobs were a stepping stone to a high pay job are dying out.

They are more of a trap now, Caught in a circle of just hanging on unable to further educate due to loosing hours and alike. And as I said better education is no guarantee either they will get someone to work for what ever wage they offer it's more and more an employers market. Recession used as guise to profiteer.

As a society are we getting value for money?

Comments