Management company will remove all services to the apartment rented by us

Sandra_Silver · 14-06-2014 2:15pm #1

Hello there

Myself and my partner have been renting an apartment for the past 4 years in Dublin 22. We keep the place in very good order and have never missed a rent payment.We rarely contacted our landlord unless there was a problem with the property. Two years ago we received a letter from a company informing me that my landlord has been having severe financial difficulties and that properties owned by my landlord were repossessed by them. The apartment was surrendered and we signed a new contract with an appointed agent. We kept paying rent as normal and everyting was in order. Unfortunately some time later we found out that our landlord/ now appointed agent hasn't been paying management fees.
First of all the management company made us to remove our car from designated car space (otherwise the car will be clamped) as management fees hadn't been paid. Fine, we removed the car as required. About two months ago water supply to our apartment was turned off. My managed to turned it on again. The director of the management company has been extremely unpleasant and did not want to speak with me (he hang on the phone during the conversation)
We are now pawns and clearly we have been victimised by the management company in order to get our landlord to pay the arrears. I felt that the company using us, tenants to hassle property owner, we have have been threatening by them but we do not have any power to make our landlord to do anything (we cannot even contact him, we provided the management company with all details of the appointed agent including phone numbers, address and email).
Yesterday we received by post a letter advising us that all services to our apartment will be removed in 10 days. From 23rd June 2014 the management company will no longer facilitate water, gas and electricity to be supplied to the apartment.
Since the electricity/gas bills are in my name, can the management company can cut my power off etc?

I accept that management charges have to be paid. I accept that this can be difficult. The correct approach is to sue the apartment owner. Not to hassle third parties. Can we do anything? we wont be able to rent a new apartment within 10 days?

I urgently need some advice as our services will be removed in few days . Thank you in advance

dissed doc · 14-06-2014 2:22pm

I would contact PTRB to lodge a complaint as the apartment as per the tenancy agreement is not available to you, meaning with access to parking, normal services, etc., .

If it has been going on this long I would also find a new apartment. You are dead right it is between the owner and the management company. Basically the lease is being broken by the landlord by not supplying the property as per expectations. IMO.

They could cut off the services like electricity or whatever, but I doubt they actually can legally do that. It doesn't stop them actually doing it though. They just want the money, and will probably bully someone into paying the fees (that someone could include you).

Then again, the notice you got is effectively for the owner. The management company have no interest in the tenant really, just need to inform the owner what their obligations are under the management company contract.

mickdw · 14-06-2014 2:24pm

Sandra_Silver wrote: »

Hello there

Myself and my partner have been renting an apartment for the past 4 years in Dublin 22. We keep the place in very good order and have never missed a rent payment.We rarely contacted our landlord unless there was a problem with the property. Two years ago we received a letter from a company informing me that my landlord has been having severe financial difficulties and that properties owned by my landlord were repossessed by them. The apartment was surrendered and we signed a new contract with an appointed agent. We kept paying rent as normal and everyting was in order. Unfortunately some time later we found out that our landlord/ now appointed agent hasn't been paying management fees.
First of all the management company made us to remove our car from designated car space (otherwise the car will be clamped) as management fees hadn't been paid. Fine, we removed the car as required. About two months ago water supply to our apartment was turned off. My managed to turned it on again. The director of the management company has been extremely unpleasant and did not want to speak with me (he hang on the phone during the conversation)
We are now pawns and clearly we have been victimised by the management company in order to get our landlord to pay the arrears. I felt that the company using us, tenants to hassle property owner, we have have been threatening by them but we do not have any power to make our landlord to do anything (we cannot even contact him, we provided the management company with all details of the appointed agent including phone numbers, address and email).
Yesterday we received by post a letter advising us that all services to our apartment will be removed in 10 days. From 23rd June 2014 the management company will no longer facilitate water, gas and electricity to be supplied to the apartment.
Since the electricity/gas bills are in my name, can the management company can cut my power off etc?

I accept that management charges have to be paid. I accept that this can be difficult. The correct approach is to sue the apartment owner. Not to hassle third parties. Can we do anything? we wont be able to rent a new apartment within 10 days?

I urgently need some advice as our services will be removed in few days . Thank you in advance

Surely the bank / agent / handler to whom you currently pay rent is somehow in breach of contract?
I know the legals here but when this issue first arose I would have sought a legal opinion on the situation. Would you be within your rights to world rent early on when services were not available due to non payment of management charges. Certainly at this stage they would not be seeing a penny from me if I was in your situation.
It's likely a bank or nama that now had control of the property so lack of rental payments might get them moving.

Sandra_Silver · 14-06-2014 2:31pm

PTRB are not interested, was told that they only deal with tenant- landlord issues and not tenant -management company . The point is that there is an appointed agent who in now "our landlord" but the management company do not want to deal with them. I do not really want to move out within next few months as we are in the process of applying for a mortgage. that could take another 6 months.

sharpsuit · 14-06-2014 2:34pm

The owners' management company do not have the legal powers to suspend services to you as occupiers of the dwelling. The MUD Act provides how they can pursue the landlord via the courts. In my opinion, you need to take an aggressive position against the owners' management company, possibly a Circuit Court injunction. Obtain legal advice.

The PRTB case is fine but this will not be against the management company and you will still lose vital services.

Marcusm · 14-06-2014 9:35pm

Find a Free Legal Advice Centre (FLAC) or approach Threshold. It may be that this falls into a gap but, by way of example, in the UK it is a criminal act for a freeholder/landlord/management company to interfere with the provision of basic services (water particularly). The proper procedure for the mgt company/freeholder to adopt would have been to seek forfeiture of the lease, relet it and recover the management fees from the sales proceeds.

Lantus · 15-06-2014 9:27am

You are not being victimised by the management company, you are (have) been victimised by the unit owner. They failed to pay their service fees (probably a long time ago) and their mortgage it seems as you have to stop paying for years and years before the bank move to repossess.

However, the landlord seemed to have no financial difficulty in taking all the rent money from you and not paying his bills. Lovely.

The management company as a matter of last resort is now having to take regrettable action against the unit owner. The fact you have entered into a third party arrangement with the unit owner is neither here nor there.

The provision of services is entirely dependant on payment of fees. There will be a range of services the OMC can cease to provide for this unit within the provisions of the lease. some they cannot. It depends on the building and what they own and the lease itself.

The usual services to withdraw to apartments are access to common areas, parking and common TV systems or remove devices from the company's buildings. Primary utilities are entering a 'grey' area. Some OMCs own the water storage tanks so they could restrict water although you should still get a trickle for basic water needs. If gas is communal they could also restrict this if the system design allows it but not sure re electricity.

If a rent receiver has been appointed they should pay these fee's. I would tell the receiver you are moving out immediately.

If I was the OMC I would cut every service I could and refuse to provide any documentation or insurance certs (required for a sale) until they paid every penny.

Appreciate that you are in the middle but your unit owner has done this to you 100%. They bought the apartment , rented it out and stopped paying fees knowing full well you may bear the brunt. shame on them.

Greaney · 15-06-2014 9:56am

To re-iterate a previous post. I believe it's illegal to cut off water.
http://www.keepingyourhome.ie/if_your_landlord_wants_you_to_leave.html

tinkerbell · 15-06-2014 10:54am

OP, your issue is with the Landlord, not the management company. The management company actions are as a direct result of your Landlord not paying fees. So either take it up with the Landlord and get it sorted out or else your only option is to move out. Honestly, how can you expect to get services from the management company when your Landlord isn't even paying for said services? The mind boggles.

Lantus · 15-06-2014 11:36am

Greaney wrote: »

To re-iterate a previous post. I believe it's illegal to cut off water.
http://www.keepingyourhome.ie/if_your_landlord_wants_you_to_leave.html

That relates to landlords and tenants. OMCs are not landlords they are building owners. They do not rent out property and therefore as correctly pointed out by the OP the PRTB have no jurisdiction regarding the management company.

The primary lease signed by the owner will usually state that ALL services are 100% dependant on payment of fees.

Essential services like block insurance are paid through service fees. There are no magic fairies, trees or organisations to make up the difference. You pay on the date or you don't get it. If your employer was 6 months late in paying your wages and you couldn't pay for food, rent, insurance I'm sure you would take all required action to secure that money that was due to you. The company is trying its best to do that and is avoiding costly legal action wherever possible.

Your the folks in the middle but don't confuse positive action from the management company as being the problem when in fact its 2+ years of negligence and contractual breaches by your unit owner which have led to this point.

fasttalkerchat · 15-06-2014 11:37am

I would start off by demanding a reduction in rent because you no longer have a parking space. That should waken him up.

tinkerbell · 15-06-2014 2:47pm

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

I would start off by demanding a reduction in rent because you no longer have a parking space. That should waken him up.

Demanding a reduction in rent is not gonna solve the problem for the OP as unless the Landlord starts paying what he owes to the management company, the services will still not be supplied. If the Landlord refuses to pay then the only option for the OP is to move out.

Ardent · 15-06-2014 3:06pm

Just move out and rent elsewhere?! Why would you want this hassle?

keith16 · 15-06-2014 3:12pm

Ardent wrote: »

Just move out and rent elsewhere?! Why would you want this hassle?

Did you read the OP?

Talk about an Irish solution to an Irish problem. Absolutely sickening that the management company would act in this way.

Bepolite · 15-06-2014 3:51pm

Offer to pay the rent directly to the management company to clear the arrears. Submit a reciept each month to the unit owners.

Sandra_Silver · 15-06-2014 4:01pm

When I rented the apartment I wasn't aware of the fact that he wasn't paying the management fees. Was told that everything was in order. The problem is that we have provided the management company with all the information required, we emailed them a copy of new contract and details of the appointed agent . The director of the OMC called me and said that we are both know that my landlord is still the owner and demanded me to get in touch with him (I honestly do not have idea what is going on and do not have my landlord's mobile number as he has changed it) . OMC refuse to deal with the company who took over the apartment. We are thinking of moving out but apparently it is not that easy as there is a shortage of renting accommodation in Dublin. In other words I will definitely wont be able to move within 10 days. Should the OMC give us more time to sort out the issue (10 days seems to be a very short notice). Not paying the rent is not a solution as I will be asked to move out by my landlord after 2-3 months (breach of contract ).
The management company asked us to pay them rent directly but again by doing this I will breach the contract sign with my the appointed agent.
I just want to get it sorted and not end up with no services...

Bepolite · 15-06-2014 4:08pm

Sandra_Silver wrote: »

Not paying the rent is not a solution as I will be asked to move out by my landlord after 2-3 months (breach of contract ).

Making deductions from the rent for something the LL will not resolve is not withholding rent. It will take much longer than 3 months to get you out even if you stopped paying rent entirely and moved in 15 hookers (the rugby variety ofc).

I'm afraid the only other option, as far as I can see it, is to move out. There is no cotract between you and the management co. You may be able to seek an injuction etc. but that seems a lot of hassle to go through.

tinkerbell · 15-06-2014 6:10pm

keith16 wrote: »

Did you read the OP?

Talk about an Irish solution to an Irish problem. Absolutely sickening that the management company would act in this way.

Why is it sickening? The management company is made up of all the unit owners of the estate. So you think that the other unit owners should fund services to the OP who is not even an owner of the estate, just because the OP's landlord (ie another unit owner) won't pay their fair share of charges incurred to provide services to the estate? That's ridiculous. You mention an Irish solution to an Irish problem - no. It's people expecting to get free services and not pay for them.

OP, your ONLY option is to go to the Landlord - they are the person making this an issue for you. However didn't you say they haven't paid for 2/3 years? Unless they start making pretty decent contributions to make up for their arrears straight away, it might be a while before you get to see the benefits. So I suggest you start looking for alternative accommodation immediately.

Mrs OBumble · 15-06-2014 7:23pm

keith16 wrote: »

Did you read the OP?

Talk about an Irish solution to an Irish problem. Absolutely sickening that the management company would act in this way.

And your suggested alternative is???

OP, I'd suggest you talk to the council: let the housing department know what the management company is planning, and that you will have no option but to present as homeless if they do.

Hopefully the council will be able to stop them cutting services.

The other alternative is to approach a local journalist and us the press to shame them into not doing so, or a TD or local councillor and use a more low key method. Whcih one to choose depends on who you have contacts with.

Frankly, you need to be talking to the appointed agent about this, and they need to be talking to the management company. If the MC won't talk to them, then the agent needs to tell you what to do next - and one option would be that the agent finds you another property to live in.

jd · 15-06-2014 9:03pm

Sandra_Silver wrote: »

The director of the OMC called me and said that we are both know that my landlord is still the owner and demanded me to get in touch with him (I honestly do not have idea what is going on and do not have my landlord's mobile number as he has changed it) . OMC refuse to deal with the company who took over the apartment.

I'd guess what's happened here is a rent receiver has been appointed, and the actual ownership of the unit hasn't changed. In fact technically, neither you nor the rent receiver should be told the owner of the apartment is in arrears with his service charges (Data Protection)

Cyrus · 15-06-2014 9:09pm

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

And your suggested alternative is???

OP, I'd suggest you talk to the council: let the housing department know what the management company is planning, and that you will have no option but to present as homeless if they do.

Hopefully the council will be able to stop them cutting services.

The other alternative is to approach a local journalist and us the press to shame them into not doing so, or a TD or local councillor and use a more low key method. Whcih one to choose depends on who you have contacts with.

Frankly, you need to be talking to the appointed agent about this, and they need to be talking to the management company. If the MC won't talk to them, then the agent needs to tell you what to do next - and one option would be that the agent finds you another property to live in.

It's nothing to do with the council and while it's regrettable the op is caught up in this the owners actions are detrimental to the rest of the owners in the complex. Their actions mean the tenant will take some action against the owner and hopefully get it resolved

Grandpa Hassan · 15-06-2014 9:49pm

If an apartment owner in my complex stopped paying the service charges I would expect the management co to do exactly what is being done here. It is unfortunate for the tenant to get stuck in the middle but the hope is that either the tenant forces the LL to resolve the situation, or else moves out and the LL gets all power cut such that he can't let it to anyone else. That is the only thing that might force his hand

The only other alternative is for the other unit owners to cover the missing payments themselves by an increase in the service charge, or else accept a reduced service. And that is not acceptable.

I think the OPs only realistic action, in the absence of action by the LL, is to get a few days delay to give then chance to find a other apartment

irishredmist · 15-06-2014 10:16pm

sharpsuit wrote: »

The owners' management company do not have the legal powers to suspend services to you as occupiers of the dwelling. The MUD Act provides how they can pursue the landlord via the courts. In my opinion, you need to take an aggressive position against the owners' management company, possibly a Circuit Court injunction. Obtain legal advice.

The PRTB case is fine but this will not be against the management company and you will still lose vital services.

Are tenant rights the same here as UK.. you can be arrested by the police if you touch the water or electric supply (cost my lanlord £5,000 for such) also is a court order needed to remove tenants regardless of whether they are paying rent or not? ?

The_Morrigan · 15-06-2014 10:30pm

irishredmist wrote: »

Are tenant rights the same here as UK.. you can be arrested by the police if you touch the water or electric supply (cost my lanlord £5,000 for such) also is a court order needed to remove tenants regardless of whether they are paying rent or not? ?

No they aren't the same.

who_ru · 15-06-2014 11:43pm

Sandra_Silver wrote: »

When I rented the apartment I wasn't aware of the fact that he wasn't paying the management fees. Was told that everything was in order. The problem is that we have provided the management company with all the information required, we emailed them a copy of new contract and details of the appointed agent . The director of the OMC called me and said that we are both know that my landlord is still the owner and demanded me to get in touch with him (I honestly do not have idea what is going on and do not have my landlord's mobile number as he has changed it) . OMC refuse to deal with the company who took over the apartment. We are thinking of moving out but apparently it is not that easy as there is a shortage of renting accommodation in Dublin. In other words I will definitely wont be able to move within 10 days. Should the OMC give us more time to sort out the issue (10 days seems to be a very short notice). Not paying the rent is not a solution as I will be asked to move out by my landlord after 2-3 months (breach of contract ).
The management company asked us to pay them rent directly but again by doing this I will breach the contract sign with my the appointed agent.
I just want to get it sorted and not end up with no services...

OP I feel sorry for you and what is happening to you. It is a terrible reflection on how people who rent are treated in this country. Shameful behaviour.

househero · 15-06-2014 11:44pm

They are trying to get rid of you, to sell the property. EXACT same thing happened to us. All I will say, is go to their office and throw your weight around.

If you get treated like an idiot, act the idiot.

Mrs OBumble · 16-06-2014 1:07am

Cyrus wrote: »

It's nothing to do with the council and while it's regrettable the op is caught up in this the owners actions are detrimental to the rest of the owners in the complex. Their actions mean the tenant will take some action against the owner and hopefully get it resolved

I'm not so sure that it's nothing to do with the council. They have some responsibility for ensuring that housing in their area is habitable. They have legal rights to inspect rental properties, and to force LLs to take action if they don't meet minimum standards (eg water supply).

What's more, they might have some informal influencing power the the MC that the OP doesn't.

Personally I'd be of the opinion that the OP should stop paying rent to the agent, and start directing the cash (with receipts of course) to the MC to pay the fees. Now that wouldn't be legal, so it's not advice that I can give here. But pragmatically it's an option that might work if the other more relationship-management based ones don't.

irishredmist · 16-06-2014 7:31am

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

I'm not so sure that it's nothing to do with the council. They have some responsibility for ensuring that housing in their area is habitable. They have legal rights to inspect rental properties, and to force LLs to take action if they don't meet minimum standards (eg water supply).

What's more, they might have some informal influencing power the the MC that the OP doesn't.

Personally I'd be of the opinion that the OP should stop paying rent to the agent, and start directing the cash (with receipts of course) to the MC to pay the fees. Now that wouldn't be legal, so it's not advice that I can give here. But pragmatically it's an option that might work if the other more relationship-management based ones don't.

They are bullies I agree stop paying rent immediately and pay MC the fees. My response to them "court lets go"

3DataModem · 16-06-2014 8:20am

sharpsuit wrote: »

The owners' management company do not have the legal powers to suspend services to you as occupiers of the dwelling. The MUD Act provides how they can pursue the landlord via the courts. In my opinion, you need to take an aggressive position against the owners' management company, possibly a Circuit Court injunction. Obtain legal advice.

The PRTB case is fine but this will not be against the management company and you will still lose vital services.

This.

Get legal advice.

The_Morrigan · 16-06-2014 8:49am

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Personally I'd be of the opinion that the OP should stop paying rent to the agent, and start directing the cash (with receipts of course) to the MC to pay the fees. Now that wouldn't be legal, so it's not advice that I can give here. But pragmatically it's an option that might work if the other more relationship-management based ones don't.

Seriously?
That is advice...and you should know better.

Folks the withholding of rent is illegal and therefore a breach of the forum charter to suggest it.

Cyrus · 16-06-2014 8:52am

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

I'm not so sure that it's nothing to do with the council. They have some responsibility for ensuring that housing in their area is habitable. They have legal rights to inspect rental properties, and to force LLs to take action if they don't meet minimum standards (eg water supply).

What's more, they might have some informal influencing power the the MC that the OP doesn't.

Personally I'd be of the opinion that the OP should stop paying rent to the agent, and start directing the cash (with receipts of course) to the MC to pay the fees. Now that wouldn't be legal, so it's not advice that I can give here. But pragmatically it's an option that might work if the other more relationship-management based ones don't.

The supply of services in a private apartment complex is contingent on management fees being paid, while this isn't the tenants fault the management company have no option as I'm sure the rest of the owners in the complex voted for this action as well they should have

Management company will remove all services to the apartment rented by us

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