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Management company will remove all services to the apartment rented by us

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    #62
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    Right here :
    Sandra_Silver wrote: »
    ....Yesterday we received by post a letter advising us that all services to our apartment will be removed in 10 days. From 23rd June 2014 the management company will no longer facilitate water, gas and electricity to be supplied to the apartment.
    Since the electricity/gas bills are in my name, can the management company can cut my power off etc?

    I accept that management charges have to be paid. I accept that this can be difficult. The correct approach is to sue the apartment owner. Not to hassle third parties. Can we do anything? we wont be able to rent a new apartment within 10 days?

    I urgently need some advice as our services will be removed in few days . Thank you in advance

    Cutting off ESB, eircom or UPC connections may well be way beyond something any third party would want to be getting involved with.


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    #63
    Grandpa Hassan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,945 ✭✭✭Grandpa Hassan


    SpaceTime wrote: »
    Right here :



    Cutting off ESB, eircom or UPC connections may well be way beyond something any third party would want to be getting involved with.

    The question here I think is simply one of timing. 10 days is indoubtedly too short a notice period, and I am sure that it won't happen. But if management fees remain unpaid it will at some stage soon, with the management company going to ESB to get it done. The OP should get an appropriate notice of impending with drawal of supply.

    In short, the OP needs to start looking for somewhere else to live immediately.


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    #64
    Cyrus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,707 ✭✭✭✭Cyrus


    Didnt spot that,

    i dont think they can switch off ESB, but they dont need to,

    Turning the water supply off will make the apartment uninhabitable very very quickly anyway


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    #65
    tinkerbell
    Registered Users Posts: 6,423 ✭✭✭tinkerbell


    keith16 wrote: »
    Do you think the MC could show a little bit of discretion and give the OP some time to move given the current market conditions?

    I think given that the LL has given the MC the runaround for years, the MC could extend at least something of a courtesy or compassion to the OP? Give them maybe 2 months? Is that too much to ask?

    They've already shown some discretion - they've been chasing fees for a few years now according to the OP, why should they further extend that? A management company is not there to offer compassion, it is not a charity so yes it is too much to ask. Everybody else on the estate is already suffering due to the LL not paying their fees because as somebody else explained to you, a budget is made each year and there is no profit or loss - costs of estate = fees charged to property owners. Just because the tenant is a tenant, doesn't mean exceptions can be made. What about all the other property owners? They already have suffered for a few years since this LL isn't paying what he owes.


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    #66
    Turkish1
    Registered Users Posts: 273 ✭✭Turkish1


    Cyrus wrote: »
    Didnt spot that,

    i dont think they can switch off ESB, but they dont need to,

    Turning the water supply off will make the apartment uninhabitable very very quickly anyway

    As someone in the thread has previously pointed out (along with a reference to some of the relevant legislation) they are not legally entitled to turn off the water either.

    I am sure they could stop providing services such as refuse collection (even though it would be hard to stop access to the communal bins), parking space, access to communal amenities (garden etc, again hard to seperate) however the provision of electricity/water/gas etc is not in the hands of the management company and I a threat to bring them to court if they proceed with these actions will bring them back down to earth fairly quickly.


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    #67
    skimpydoo
    Registered Users Posts: 4,868 ✭✭✭skimpydoo


    I used to be on the Management Company of the apartment complex I live in. The Management Agents who do all the day to day work on our behalf had to chase up non paid management fees from various owners. As most of the people living in our complex are tenants, I asked can we cut of any services to people who are not paying there way, as there was a few people with 2-4 years unpaid fees. I was told its illegal to cut off any services like electricity or upc. The only people who can cut them of is the utility company ESB, Eircom etc if there bills are not paid. All the tenants would be in the dark like the op and not know that management fees have not being paid. Op it is illegal to cut of your water and when you start paying the dreaded water tax you are paying for your water. Get on to the PRTB pronto as you are being treated illegally for something that is not your doing and out of your hands.


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    #68
    Grandpa Hassan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,945 ✭✭✭Grandpa Hassan


    Turkish1 wrote: »
    As someone in the thread has previously pointed out (along with a reference to some of the relevant legislation) they are not legally entitled to turn off the water either.

    I am sure they could stop providing services such as refuse collection (even though it would be hard to stop access to the communal bins), parking space, access to communal amenities (garden etc, again hard to seperate) however the provision of electricity/water/gas etc is not in the hands of the management company and I a threat to bring them to court if they proceed with these actions will bring them back down to earth fairly quickly.

    It'll get cut off at some stage. They'll arrange with the ESB etc to give appropriate notice so that the tenant can find somewhere to live. In short, the OP needs to move. I certainly wouldn't want to be living somewhere with this hanging over my head anyway


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    #69
    skimpydoo
    Registered Users Posts: 4,868 ✭✭✭skimpydoo


    Grandpa Hassan wrote: »
    The question here I think is simply one of timing. 10 days is indoubtedly too short a notice period, and I am sure that it won't happen. But if management fees remain unpaid it will at some stage soon, with the management company going to ESB to get it done. The OP should get an appropriate notice of impending with drawal of supply.
    As long as the op is paying all their bills, they can't have services cut off/withdrawn.


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    #70
    Cyrus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,707 ✭✭✭✭Cyrus


    Turkish1 wrote: »
    As someone in the thread has previously pointed out (along with a reference to some of the relevant legislation) they are not legally entitled to turn off the water either.

    .

    They were wrong, depending on the development they can.


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    #71
    Doodee
    Registered Users Posts: 6,419 ✭✭✭Doodee


    Have heard this said but not 100% sure but If the agent is having a problem they can notify the person who owns the debt on the apartment that they will be removed from the block insurance policy. If it is a financial institution they will take the necessary actions to prevent this as it would invalidate the mortgage.

    I heard it was a last resort to use in such situations.
    And 3rd party info so might not be correct


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    #72
    Bepolite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,737 ✭✭✭Bepolite


    skimpydoo wrote: »
    As long as the op is paying all their bills, they can't have services cut off/withdrawn.

    I very much doubt it does, but the lease (the one the LL holds) may have provisions that if the service charges are not paid the management company will no longer allow the services to run over their land.

    I'm no expert on wayleaves etc. I'm simply pointing out that although no-one has the right to cut off services per se, there may be a legal alternative that results in the same effect.

    Why the management co. simply don't sue is beyond me.


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    #73
    Cyrus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,707 ✭✭✭✭Cyrus


    Bepolite wrote: »
    I very much doubt it does, but the lease (the one the LL holds) may have provisions that if the service charges are not paid the management company will no longer allow the services to run over their land.

    I'm no expert on wayleaves etc. I'm simply pointing out that although no-one has the right to cut off services per se, there may be a legal alternative that results in the same effect.

    Why the management co. simply don't sue is beyond me.

    because its costly and takes a long time, they have probably already chased the debt for a few years and sent legal letters


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    #74
    28064212
    Registered Users Posts: 10,493 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    Turkish1 wrote: »
    As someone in the thread has previously pointed out (along with a reference to some of the relevant legislation) they are not legally entitled to turn off the water either.
    The legislation posted says a landlord cannot turn the water off on a tenant. It doesn't say anything about what a management company (who may own the infrastructure providing the water) can or can't do to a landlord.

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    #75
    Lantus
    Registered Users Posts: 3,027 ✭✭✭Lantus


    As a few people have said if the company does not have the money to make its annual insurance renewal or maintain its fire alarms a few tears and a sob story about how its someone else's fault will not ensure they get free services worth tens of thousands of euro's.

    Yes the tenant is in the middle but the landlord put them there. Quite happily and also I would imagine has had no trouble in receiving rent payments every month and spending the money.

    In relation to services it is a block specific issue. Some developments have a lot of infrastructure owned by the company which the company would be paying top money to maintain and look after. In that sense they would be within their rights to 'limit' such services. I say limit because cutting off all power and water is a big step. Reducing to a trickle which is what Irish water will be doing if you don't pay seems to be a more humane step.

    Renters are just third parties who have an arrangement with the unit owner. However, those rights don't extend to the management company. The company only has a legal contract with the unit owner which is a more serious affair as it is tied to the mortgage and gives a range of powers and responsibilities.


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    #76
    skimpydoo
    Registered Users Posts: 4,868 ✭✭✭skimpydoo


    Bepolite wrote: »
    I very much doubt it does, but the lease (the one the LL holds) may have provisions that if the service charges are not paid the management company will no longer allow the services to run over their land.

    I'm no expert on wayleaves etc. I'm simply pointing out that although no-one has the right to cut off services per se, there may be a legal alternative that results in the same effect.

    Why the management co. simply don't sue is beyond me.

    We were told by our Management Agent's that's it's illegal to cut off services. We managed to get all the people who owed us money to start paying of what they owe. It took legal letters and threats of court action before some started to pay. We are still owed money but it's all being paid back at an agreed timescale.


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    #77
    Bepolite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,737 ✭✭✭Bepolite


    Cyrus wrote: »
    because its costly and takes a long time, they have probably already chased the debt for a few years and sent legal letters

    Costs will need to be met by the other side. I assume arrears would be within the circuit court jurisdiction, if not the district - shouldn't take much time at all.


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    #78
    tinkerbell
    Registered Users Posts: 6,423 ✭✭✭tinkerbell


    skimpydoo wrote: »
    We were told by our Management Agent's that's it's illegal to cut off services. We managed to get all the people who owed us money to start paying of what they owe. It took legal letters and threats of court action before some started to pay. We are still owed money but it's all being paid back at an agreed timescale.

    Maybe it's illegal in your estate because the management company doesn't own the infrastructure that the services come from but in some estates, the management company own the infrastructure (eg water tanks).

    Well done for getting everybody to start paying something but it's not always that easy and quite often can involve court proceedings which can take a lot of time. In the meantime you have no option but to suspend any services to that unit (whatever those services they may be, eg refuse, parking, etc).


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    #79
    tinkerbell
    Registered Users Posts: 6,423 ✭✭✭tinkerbell


    Bepolite wrote: »
    Costs will need to be met by the other side. I assume arrears would be within the circuit court jurisdiction, if not the district - shouldn't take much time at all.

    It takes a long time for these things to go to court. Costs may be made payable by the person in arrears but these costs still need to be paid in advance by the person bringing them to court. In the meantime, the management company is out of pocket for fees owed (the debt) AND the costs of solicitors / barristers in order to bring them to court so they are further out of pocket than before. It can take months / years before they'd see that back - in the meantime all the other residents are suffering because there's no money left to pay refuse companies, insurance, etc.


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    #80
    Clearlier
    Registered Users Posts: 4,454 ✭✭✭Clearlier


    Sandra_Silver wrote: »
    PTRB are not interested, was told that they only deal with tenant- landlord issues and not tenant -management company . The point is that there is an appointed agent who in now "our landlord" but the management company do not want to deal with them. I do not really want to move out within next few months as we are in the process of applying for a mortgage. that could take another 6 months.

    The way that you describe it here would be comical if it weren't so serious. You say that the apartment changed ownership a couple of years ago and that you signed a new contract with them yet the management company refuse to believe that ownership has changed and continue to chase the previous owner?

    Either you're missing a piece of information or the management company are being incredibly stupid. You say that you are unable to contact the current owners. What do you do if repairs are required?


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    #81
    Sandra_Silver
    Registered Users Posts: 16 ✭Sandra_Silver


    If repairs are required we would notify the appointed agent to whom we pay the rent. In the past we deducted the cost of repairs from rent. It was a mutual agreement . If it comes to worst I offer to pay my rent to the management company as we cannot live without services. I have informed the company ("current landlord" if you want to call it like this) about the situation occurred and was told that their solicitor will get in touch with the management company but I haven't heard from them since this morning


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    #82
    anncoates
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,925 ✭✭✭✭anncoates


    Sorry to hear about that OP. From my experience, the management company usually isn't doing this to be dicks. It's probably a last resort because of widespread fee arrears and they are trying to force the landlord to pay his contracted fees.

    A management company is an actual company that has to pay for services like waste management, electricity, block insurance and so on.

    Your landlord not paying his fees (while pocketing rent ) means your services are basically being subsidized by owners that are paying their fees and your landlord is also endangering the financial status of the company.

    Not your fault of course and hopefully your landlord engages.

    I think this country really needs a lot of people to fully understand how managed estates work and how services are paid for rather than simply branding them as zealous resident associations and the like.

    Hope you get it sorted.


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    #83
    28064212
    Registered Users Posts: 10,493 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    Sandra_Silver wrote: »
    If it comes to worst I offer to pay my rent to the management company as we cannot live without services
    This is a really bad idea. You have a contract with the owner, not the management company. If you don't pay them, you will be considered as not paying your rent, regardless of whether you're paying off their creditors.

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    #84
    miss no stars
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,957 ✭✭✭miss no stars


    It's disgraceful behaviour by the MC. The MC's agent hung up on the OP when the OP was trying to help resolve the issue and accused the OP of being a liar by saying the OP could put them in contact with the owner. Aside from ANYTHING else, their interactions with the OP are disgusting.

    To those who say the MC is doing the right thing by pressurizing the OP into moving out, thus hitting the owner financially and pressurizing them into paying the fees.... Is that not tantamount to an illegal eviction? They're deliberately making someone's home uninhabitable and are aware that the occupant cannot do anything to resolve the issue, has cooperated with providing all the details THEY have to help resolve the issue, yet the actions of the MC seem to be a deliberate attempt to force the OP to move out of their home.

    Saying "oh well they're saving on legal fees for the other owners by doing it this way" simply isn't good enough, the way to go about it is the legal route. Not by cutting off essential services to someone who can't resolve and isn't responsible for the problem and then being aggressive and rude in dealing with them.

    OP I'm sorry I have no advice here other than to try and see a solicitor about getting some sort of injunction. This isn't your problem to resolve. Sorry for your troubles.


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    #85
    Cyrus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,707 ✭✭✭✭Cyrus


    miss no stars wrote: »
    It's disgraceful behaviour by the MC. The MC's agent hung up on the OP when the OP was trying to help resolve the issue and accused the OP of being a liar by saying the OP could put them in contact with the owner. Aside from ANYTHING else, their interactions with the OP are disgusting.

    a scandal joe

    why would the MC speak to the OP, they have no relationship with her. Their issue is with the LL and their actions are against the LL. The OP issue is with her landlord.


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    #86
    miss no stars
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,957 ✭✭✭miss no stars


    Cyrus wrote: »
    a scandal joe

    why would the MC speak to the OP, they have no relationship with her. Their issue is with the LL and their actions are against the LL. The OP issue is with her landlord.

    Exactly. They should be dealing with the owner or their receiver. Not cutting off essential services to someone with whom they have no relationship. Glad you agree.


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    #87
    Cyrus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,707 ✭✭✭✭Cyrus


    miss no stars wrote: »
    Exactly. They should be dealing with the owner or their receiver. Not cutting off essential services to someone with whom they have no relationship. Glad you agree.

    they are dealing with the owner, its the owners services they are cutting off.


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    #88
    athtrasna
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,420 ✭✭✭✭athtrasna


    miss no stars wrote: »
    Exactly. They should be dealing with the owner or their receiver. Not cutting off essential services to someone with whom they have no relationship. Glad you agree.

    No, legally they should be speaking to the owner but are entitled to cut off services to the apartment as they actually own it. The landlord has a long term lease (probably several hundred years) from the management company. The landlord is in breach of that lease by not paying management fees so the company is taking action against the landlord. That the apartment is rented is of no concern to the management company in legal terms and the OP 's legal issue is with their landlord.


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    #89
    miss no stars
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,957 ✭✭✭miss no stars


    Cyrus wrote: »
    they are dealing with the owner, its the owners services they are cutting off.

    Yeah, the owner is gonna be reeeeeeeeaaaaaaaally affected by them cutting off the OP's water and electricity :rolleyes:

    If they're the owner's services, does the owner have to pay the electricity bill? If not... Then how are they the owner's services?


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    #90
    miss no stars
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,957 ✭✭✭miss no stars


    athtrasna wrote: »
    No, legally they should be speaking to the owner but are entitled to cut off services to the apartment as they actually own it. The landlord has a long term lease (probably several hundred years) from the management company. The landlord is in breach of that lease by not paying management fees so the company is taking action against the landlord. That the apartment is rented is of no concern to the management company in legal terms and the OP 's legal issue is with their landlord.

    But they know it's not occupied by the owner, thus they're pursuing tan unrelated third party.

    Seriously, how is this not an illegal eviction? You can't live somewhere that doesn't have water ffs. They KNOW the owner doesn't live there, they have been given as much contact info as possible for the owner, go pursue the owner. What they're doing isn't pursuing the owner, is punishing a third party.


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    #91
    Grandpa Hassan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,945 ✭✭✭Grandpa Hassan


    miss no stars wrote: »
    Exactly. They should be dealing with the owner or their receiver. Not cutting off essential services to someone with whom they have no relationship. Glad you agree.

    It is the apartment owner's actions that are resulting in the potential removal of services. The MC are removing the services of the apartment owner. That someone else is living in the apartment isn't and shouldn't be relevant to them. If MC's dealt with tenants rather than owners, management of estates would be impossible. The OP needs to get pro-active and get hold of the LL.

    The MC is doing the right thing IMO. The result would be the tenant moving out and the LL losing their income, and thus prompting them to pay up. The OP says that they can't move as they have a mortgage application in, but I don't think that is really relevant to the process.


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