Minimum years residency in order to get citizenship

osarusan · 11-06-2014 11:54PM

Mountainsandh wrote: »

but if you ask for citizenship after 10 years, chances are you mean it more than if you do after 5 years.

I don't see why - it's much more an issue of attitude than time - as evidenced by your comment that you could be in Ireland for 30 years and not consider yourself Irish.

I think that the whole "Irish citizenship indicates Irish cultural identity" is barking up the wrong tree anyway.

11-06-2014 11:56PM

kneemos wrote: »

Good enough to work and pay tax then good enough for a passport.
What do you want for them to become "Irish"before they get one.
As I say I doubt that many apply anyway.

so you think we should dole out passports to every tom, dick and harry that works here even for a small time?

you don't foresee any negative consequences from that?

mike65 · 11-06-2014 11:57PM

Nationality is such a 20th century notion - see all the millions of dead that prove it.

Just stick with residency, and make sure that being one confers total rights.

kneemos · 11-06-2014 11:57PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

so you think we should dole out passports to every tom, dick and harry that works here even for a small time?

you don't foresee any negative consequences from that?

Pray tell?

Alf. A. Male · 11-06-2014 11:58PM

Deleted User wrote: »

The question I posed doesn't have a scientifically proven answer. It's subjective. I game my opinion in the first post.

So that would be a no then. Jaysis, you didn't even try to make a reasoned argument, just criticised the time limits.

Boskowski · 12-06-2014 12:01AM

Mountain, I don't think having an Irish passport makes you Irish and I don't think it intends to do that. Regardless whether you feel strongly about your country or not, whatever sentimental feelings are there will probably always remain with your original country.

I think people read too much into this 'getting an Irish passport' thing. Its not like its a rite at full moon held by serious men with masks humming ancient chants and boom you're fully fledged sworn Irish if the nightingale clucks twice precisely at midnight. Its an administrative act, boring. You fill out a form, go through an application process and some clerk gives you the stamp. Next day you're still not Irish.

12-06-2014 12:03AM

kneemos wrote: »

Pray tell?

Well for example, people coming from homophobic cultures, or places where women's rights are minimal, would be able to travel freely and give their opinions to people abroad while representing Irish people might be one thing.

Mountainsandh · 12-06-2014 12:03AM

osarusan wrote: »

I don't see why - it's much more an issue of attitude than time - as efidence by your comment that you could be 30 years and not consider yourself Irish.

I think that the whole "Irish citizenship indicates Irish cultural identity" is barking up the wrong tree anyway.

Well yes, attitude, but I feel although I could have proclaimed myself Irish after 5 years, with hindsight, I think I wouldn't at all have been Irish.

You have a different understanding of a country after 10 years than 5. A better understanding, in my opinion. You have lived a decade in a place, you have shared a decade's experience of events with the nationals, rather than having lived 2 years still as a very very foreign person in a foreign country, then 3 years getting to know the place a bit better.

Irish citizenship does indicate Irish cultural identity.

Economy should really serve a country, not define it. (imo)
The feeling I get from this thread is that a lot of people view it as an economics issue.

kneemos · 12-06-2014 12:04AM

Boskowski wrote: »

Mountain, I don't think having an Irish passport makes you Irish and I don't think it intends to do that. Regardless whether you feel strongly about your country or not, whatever sentimental feelings are there will probably always remain with your original country.

I think people read too much into this 'getting an Irish passport' thing. Its not like its a rite at full moon held by serious men with masks humming ancient chants and boom you're fully fledged sworn Irish if the nightingale clucks twice precisely at midnight. Its an administrative act, boring. You fill out a form, go through an application process and some clerk gives you the stamp. Next day you're still not Irish.

Think you've missed the whole point of naturalisationn

12-06-2014 12:05AM

Alf. A. Male wrote: »

So that would be a no then. Jaysis, you didn't even try to make a reasoned argument, just criticised the time limits.

I think I gave my reasons. I suspect there is no argument that you would accept as "reasoned" on this.

I told you correctly, there is no scientific answer. IT'S SUBJECTIVE AND COMES DOWN TO PERSONAL PREFERENCES :rolleyes:

Boskowski · 12-06-2014 12:07AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Well for example, people coming from homophobic cultures, or places where women's rights are minimal, would be able to travel freely and give their opinions to people abroad while representing Irish people might be one thing.

Ye but they might be coming from there to escape all that?!?

If I had an Irish passport and I was travelling to America what do you think people would take me for? German or Irish? I think they would view me as German. Just because I entered America on an Irish passport doesn't make me a representative of the Irish. Do you think it does?

Jimoslimos · 12-06-2014 12:07AM

mike65 wrote: »

Nationality is such a 20th century notion - see all the millions of dead that prove it.

Just stick with residency, and make sure that being one confers total rights.

Tell that to foreign residents in Switzerland.

Boskowski · 12-06-2014 12:09AM

kneemos wrote: »

Think you've missed the whole point of naturalisationn

Must have. What is it?

marmurr1916 · 12-06-2014 12:09AM

Mountainsandh wrote: »

Irish citizenship does indicate Irish cultural identity..

No it doesn't. It's a legal status that gives you the rights and responsibilities that go with citizenship.

Just look at all the Unionists from NI, British in their cultural identity, who get Irish passports (which requires Irish citizenship to obtain) so they can qualify for tuition-free education at universities in Scotland.

Mountainsandh · 12-06-2014 12:10AM

Boskowski wrote: »

Mountain, I don't think having an Irish passport makes you Irish and I don't think it intends to do that. Regardless whether you feel strongly about your country or not, whatever sentimental feelings are there will probably always remain with your original country.

I think people read too much into this 'getting an Irish passport' thing. Its not like its a rite at full moon held by serious men with masks humming ancient chants and boom you're fully fledged sworn Irish if the nightingale clucks twice precisely at midnight. Its an administrative act, boring. You fill out a form, go through an application process and some clerk gives you the stamp. Next day you're still not Irish.

That's a terrible way to look at things, utterly lacking in idealism, and so I strongly disagree.

I think there is a huge problem with lack of ideals here atm, or a denial thereof, and I don't think that's the right way to go.

But it's late and I'm going to go dream enthusiastically of a better future, where people do give more importance to principles, and meaningful citizenship. :P

kneemos · 12-06-2014 12:11AM

Boskowski wrote: »

Must have. What is it?

You become Irish.

12-06-2014 12:14AM

Sad how many Irish people place so little value on their nationality and are so willing to anyone who spends a few years here, as if it's such a huge sacrifice in this day and age.

The only people that I know who have applied or are applying for citizenship are only using the country to get a passport for travel rights (visa waivers etc). They have no plans to stay in Ireland long-term, and they couldn't really care less about the country.

They read the news in their home country, Skype family and friends back home and spend almost all their holidays in their home country (if I lived abroad I think I'd spend at least a few days year holidaying and discovering my host country)

Standman · 12-06-2014 12:17AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Sad how many Irish people place so little value on their nationality and are so willing to anyone who spends a few years here, as if it's such a huge sacrifice in this day and age.

The only people that I know who have applied or are applying for citizenship are only using the country to get a passport for travel rights (visa waivers etc). They have no plans to stay in Ireland long-term, and they couldn't really care less about the country.

They read the news in their home country, Skype family and friends back home and spend almost all their holidays in their home country (if I lived abroad I think I'd spend at least a few days year holidaying and discovering my host country)

I wish they would pay more attention to me too.

Mountainsandh · 12-06-2014 12:18AM

marmurr1916 wrote: »

No it doesn't. It's a legal status that gives you the rights and responsibilities that go with citizenship.

Just look at all the Unionists from NI, British in their cultural identity, who get Irish passports (which requires Irish citizenship to obtain) so they can qualify for tuition-free education at universities in Scotland.

Yes, legal status.
But citizenship also means you are part of a community, and a community usually implies a common culture.

Again, ideals, principles. Not much room for that in Ireland right now. Me thinks that's a shame. Me supposed to be gone out of discussion. :pac:

B.A._Baracus · 12-06-2014 12:23AM

Why not 3 years? I mean does it really matter?
Ireland is in the EU so literally 5 million people could fly over to here within the next week and look for jobs. The doors are open.

Sure alot of Polish and Nigerians were & are working over here with the idea to return home with a good portion of savings. On the Nigerian side of things, so many have already racked up the current 5 year citizenship requirement. I am friends with a couple who have.

So does it matter how long the requirement is? Will it make any difference?

Ireland is multi-culture. The way of the western world.

Boskowski · 12-06-2014 12:24AM

kneemos wrote: »

You become Irish.

But here is the thing. I don't think you can anyway.

A huge (+90%) part of cultural identity is education and upbringing in my opinion. I grew up reading Werther in School and learning about Romantik, Charlemagne, Weimar and the sexual revolution. I was raised on Eintopf, Doener and Schnitzel. I didn't have a first communion and I couldn't give out about having to learn Irish. I never had a sausage for breakfast until I was 30.
All that is going to stay with me for life. Its ingrained, imprinted into me.

If I viewed getting an Irish passport as becoming Irish that would feel totally phony to me. Would I have to do all these things Irish whether I like them or not just to appear Irish?

Different story if you come here age 5 or even 10, but I came here age 30. I can never become Irish.

kneemos · 12-06-2014 12:29AM

Boskowski wrote: »

But here is the thing. I don't think you can anyway.

A huge (+90%) part of cultural identity is education and upbringing in my opinion. I grew up reading Werther in School and learning about Romantik, Charlemagne, Weimar and the sexual revolution. I was raised on Eintopf, Doener and Schnitzel. I didn't have a first communion and I couldn't give out about having to learn Irish. I never had a sausage for breakfast until I was 30.
All that is going to stay with me for life. Its ingrained, imprinted into me.

If I viewed getting an Irish passport as becoming Irish that would feel totally phony to me. Would I have to do all these things Irish whether I like them or not just to appear Irish?

Different story if you come here age 5 or even 10, but I came here age 30. I can never become Irish.

We don't all have to be the same.

RandomName2 · 12-06-2014 12:36AM

Boskowski wrote: »

Mountain, I don't think having an Irish passport makes you Irish and I don't think it intends to do that. Regardless whether you feel strongly about your country or not, whatever sentimental feelings are there will probably always remain with your original country.

I think people read too much into this 'getting an Irish passport' thing. Its not like its a rite at full moon held by serious men with masks humming ancient chants and boom you're fully fledged sworn Irish if the nightingale clucks twice precisely at midnight. Its an administrative act, boring. You fill out a form, go through an application process and some clerk gives you the stamp. Next day you're still not Irish.

No, if you have Irish citizenship you are 100% Irish. Doesn't matter if you were born here, lived here for only five years, don't speak English or you're twelfth generation. Someone's Irish, they're Irish. Giving someone a passport is kind of a big deal.

Boskowski wrote: »

I can never become Irish.

Hate to break it to you, but if you've got an Irish passport you're Irish; naturalisation aside.

Boskowski · 12-06-2014 12:41AM

RandomName2 wrote: »

No, if you have Irish citizenship you are 100% Irish. Doesn't matter if you were born here, lived here for only five years, don't speak English or you're twelfth generation. Someone's Irish, they're Irish. Giving someone a passport is kind of a big deal.

I think we need to distinguish here between Irish by law and Irish by heart or whatever you wanna call it.

Lets say I have an Irish passport and you knew me to be German. I look a little bit German(ish) I have the accent and all. We're travelling together and someone asks me where I'm from and I say Im Irish. Wouldn't that sound totally odd to you?

Faith+1 · 12-06-2014 12:41AM

RandomName2 wrote: »

No, if you have Irish citizenship you are 100% Irish. Doesn't matter if you were born here, lived here for only five years, don't speak English or you're twelfth generation. Someone's Irish, they're Irish. Giving someone a passport is kind of a big deal.

Hate to break it to you, but if you've got an Irish passport you're Irish; naturalisation aside.

And if a dog is born in a stable it's a horse?

kneemos · 12-06-2014 12:43AM

Faith+1 wrote: »

And if a dog is born in a stable it's a horse?

Not even an analagy.

Boskowski · 12-06-2014 12:46AM

RandomName2 wrote: »

Hate to break it to you, but if you've got an Irish passport you're Irish; naturalisation aside.

I don't have one.

And I would argue with you on that one.
Having an Irish passport means just that. I'm having an Irish passport.
It gives me rights and certain status but it does not make me Irish.

Boskowski · 12-06-2014 12:48AM

kneemos wrote: »

Not even an analagy.

It isn't but it perfectly underlines the point I'm trying to make myself.

A better one would be: And if a dog sleeps for 5 years in a stable it becomes a horse?

COYVB · 12-06-2014 12:49AM

5 years is fine. It's 5 years in most countries. I'm in Canada and it's 5 years here, although that's 5 years of permanent residency, or a 4 years of temporary residency and 3 years of permanent residency

AlmightyCushion · 12-06-2014 12:51AM

We should deport anyone who can't make a daycent cup of tae.

Minimum years residency in order to get citizenship

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